Skill reseller pricefixing FTL

[Yoru]

This is an unedited log I received from a friend who wishes to remain anonymous. He's been reselling skillbooks at thin margins for huge volumes and making a mint. It also attracts ... unwanted attention.

spambunker > sup?

Anarkyst > Hi there! How are ya?

spambunker > not too bad.  yourself?

Anarkyst > Just wanted to talk about skill trading

spambunker > what about it?

Anarkyst > I'm pretty good thx, tired, just about to go to sleep

spambunker > =]

spambunker > me too.

Anarkyst > Well u seem to have a lot of orders in at really low profit margin

Anarkyst > I would like to propose a sertain set of honor rules if u please

spambunker > like what?

Anarkyst > Skills are something one char will buy one of and never return for more.

Anarkyst > So we as ppl who r smart enough to figure out this way of trading, should make it our point to make most money on.

Anarkyst > And the average price the customer is willing to cash out is between 900,000 and 300,000k for any cheap skill

Anarkyst > (From 18k to 112k)

Anarkyst > Because u're selling ur inventory at such low profit, u're loosing out a lot of profit

Anarkyst > And u're also making others, who share the same market niche loose as much as well

spambunker > So you have a suggestion that will make me (and I would assume, you) more cash?

Anarkyst > Yes much much much more

Anarkyst > I am working on a set of rules, for trading skills...which we all undersign, and abide to, or get fined...

Anarkyst > All int he name of profit

Anarkyst > If we follow the rules, we can sell more skills, and make more money

spambunker > Okay, if I sign on, how much do you figure you stand to make in the first month?

Anarkyst > I am going to put the market in the state of a lock out, for cheap skills, untill everyone I find who trades at Jita, signs this lil honor pact.\

Anarkyst > Well, I sell at 15-20 times I pay. So depending how active you are, and how many orders u have, I was able to make an average of 20 mil per 24 hours, with 60% average of my inventory active

Anarkyst > But if we all follow the rules, we could make 40 mil a day easy

spambunker > Okay, so you're making roughly 600M/month with this?

spambunker > or, rather, 1.2B, if it goes to 40M/day?

Anarkyst > Yeah around that

Anarkyst > I'm making around 700 for last month

Anarkyst > But I had a lot of spending

Anarkyst > But with these rules, we can have increadibly high income

spambunker > Okay.  Deal.  I get your first month's profits up front and I'm on board, contracted for 3 months.

Anarkyst > It doesnt work like that, I'm locking down the market, untill all of the skill traders clear out...1 or 2 or 6 months, i dont care

spambunker > We'll take the low end of the estimates - 600M/mo?

Anarkyst > I'll sell every possible skills at the school price, in large quantities, I can afford it easily

spambunker > I don't see any advantage to signing on to something that only opens up the market to smaller players.  You won't be able to get every seller on board.

Anarkyst > The rules will be sent out to every person I ever saw trading skills at jita, I have a big list...then the market will lock down for exactly a month

spambunker > If there's an up-front that guarantees that my risk is minimized, I'm happy to play along.

Anarkyst > If I dont have every seller on board, the market stays down for 2 months

Anarkyst > It's all been done b4

Anarkyst > Theres an increadible turnaround of ppl in EVE

Anarkyst > ppl lose interest with in a week

spambunker > ...and what's to keep the people that sign from opening alt characters to undermine the charter?

Anarkyst > I'm more of a fundamental player, I dont mind waiting 2-3 months and investing large sum of money into my extremely bright future

Anarkyst > If someone is underminging the charter, if they're doing it from their corp account, I'll have mercs ont hem day and night, camping this station

Anarkyst > If they're noob chars, they wont stick around for more then 2 weeks if the market is screwed

spambunker > Without a guarantee to minimize my risk, I'm afraid that I see every hole there is for this to be my loss.

Anarkyst > U havent seent he rules yet,t hey're very logical

spambunker > Just out of curiosity - are you the guy that has been manipulating the regional averages?  I was going to get started on that next week, but someone beat me to it.

Anarkyst > I am making a website for it

Anarkyst > Where we can keep track of the offenders, and help promote our honor code to anyone we notice trading on jita

Anarkyst > And we have 2 weapons, mercs and market lockdown

Anarkyst > I'm connected up to my neck into all major alliances, I'm their banker ;)

spambunker > Both of which are easily avoidable.  You wouldn't be able to keep the contractees in line.

Anarkyst > Well, I see what u mean, ppl are ppl...but I think ppl who figured out this way of trading, have to be smart enought to undersdtand the rules and see how they're for better of everyone

Anarkyst > Simple things, like when we're outbididng each other, make it by 1 isk.

Anarkyst > Dont put orders below 10 times the original price, u're welcome to put them at 20 times, for 18k skills u can put them 40 times and still sell skills like crazy

Anarkyst > Dont put inventory higher then 20 units, so we give chance to everyone to sell

Anarkyst > Plus locking market down for 1-2 months would be a good thing in sense that all the dumber skill sellers will just leave, cause I cut all of the profit out, and control it

Anarkyst > After that most ppl will leave, and only the undersigned will know when the market will go back up

Anarkyst > The day when i hike up my inventory to 600k-900k, and then u're all welcome to join in on the competition

spambunker > Like I said, way too much risk.  If you want to put in 600M for 3 months of my attention, I'll leave the market entirely.  Other than that, I'm not going to make the decision now.

Anarkyst > Theres no decision to make, its an ultimatum, end of the month, all the skills below 56k will be resold by me at school price with inventory of a 1000 each, people will receive a link to the rules, and a sign up page

Anarkyst > After they become a member they can socialize and discuss sanctions and regulations.

Anarkyst > I'm not going to pay u off, thats just dumb

spambunker > And so is signing on for a system that allows you to come in with your alts and drain the market.

Anarkyst > And once all the orders in Jita run out, on all the cheap skills, I will hike up my prices, unless everyone sings up, then I'll open up the skill market

Anarkyst > Its not really a choice between 5 different systems...

Anarkyst > Its an utimatum between a system and nothing

Anarkyst > The system will work as long as every1 supports it

Anarkyst > So maybe there will be couple of alts etc etc

Anarkyst > They'll make some quick cash for 2-3 max 12 hours, untill I lock down the market again, and everyone will suffer

Anarkyst > Because of a dishonest member

Anarkyst > But its part of the system, our protection against system flaws

Anarkyst > And especially human flaws

spambunker > Do you mind if I email this conversation to my macroeconomics students?  At the end of the semester we study how price fixing creates market vaccuums.

Anarkyst > Yeah no prob, nice place to do social research eh ;)

Anarkyst > My name is Ellis, I'm 22, from Vancouver, BC and you?

spambunker > Dr. Stevens, Davis, Ca.

Anarkyst > Nice to meet ya Dr!

spambunker > Like I said, I have a certain understanding of how economics works, and I'm here to tell you that if you do a little historical research, you will find that your scheme has been tried and has failed miserably many times.

spambunker > In the end, the price fixers are badly undercut by the very fact that their environment is a purely competitive one.  Small operators swarm in and steal their market.

Anarkyst > So anyhow, I'm sorry to screw with ur research like that, but ur orders have really screwed a lot of money for me, and couple of other ppl, are they're your alts, or students? Cause we didnt usually have ppl bidding so low, when u can bid hi

spambunker > Entire countries have gone bankrupt on such operations.

Anarkyst > Hah, tell me bout it, I was born in Leningrad

Anarkyst > Went to grade one when the "Union" fell apart

spambunker > If my students are putting other players out of business, it's because they're learning their lessons well.  I don't think many of them are playing eve, but they're all playing an MMO.

Anarkyst > But this is a bit of a different environment, so we'll see, I'm counting that most EVE players are more interested in sticking a missile up someones ass at a gate camp,t hen to trade skills

spambunker > It's late and I have a class to teach in 7 hours.  Let me know how things go for you, okay?

Anarkyst > U're tactics seems static, make a lil bit and dont go after risky alternatives

Anarkyst > Strategy has to be adaptive, cant focus on the itea that market functions on a static model, it's closely tied into people social values and general environment

spambunker > If you come to UC in Davis, come take my class.  We play MMOs.

Note: Spambunker is definitely not any "Dr. Stevens", nor is he at UC Davis. He's just another Eve geek who likes to fuck with people. Particularly cartel-forming asshats with a shoddy grasp of economics.

[Fordel]

I love that EVE allows that kind of manipulation, but I also hate how it seemingly screws over the ignorant newbie who could end up paying 10-100x's the cost of a skill book.

[Reg]

Yea the people that leech off of peoples ignorance irritate the hell out of me. Especially the guys that put up stupidly low offers for the implants newbies get as their first mission reward. Getting a fair price for that makes the difference between comfortably buying and equipping a few decent frigates and having to mine yourself senseless. Getting ripped off like that makes the game seem boring right off the bat and drives people out of EVE.

[Krakrok]

Anyone got a price for how much it costs to make armor hardeners? It seems like someone is price fixing those if you ask me.

[Ratadm]

http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/shipequipment/hullarmor/armorhardeners/default.asp  has the base mineral building doesn't it?  23k trit and 18k pyerite so probably no price fixing although I haven't see what they're at currently.

[Krakrok]

Ah, Armor Explosive Hardener I base price ISK 350.000,00 and they are selling for 500k in the hubs. The special named ones are cheaper than the default ones. Just seems expensive to have to put 1.5 mil in hardeners on your 320k frigate.

[MahrinSkel]

The price on hardeners might be a little wonky right now, somebody who represents roughly 30% of the supply of named armor mods hasn't been tending to his hauling for a little while.

--Dave

[Endie]

The price on hardeners might be a little wonky right now, somebody who represents roughly 30% of the supply of named armor mods hasn't been tending to his hauling for a little while.

Is that you?

[Kamen]

I keep up with about a 100 modules and whenever I see a price fixing cartel attempt in Jita.  The amount of money you can make before it collapses in flames is awsomelicious.

[Strazos]

This is why I only sell my loot at hubs, NEVER buy.

Also, I've never shopped or sold in Jita. When I was doing lots of market stuff, it was mostly in Rens.

Also...wtf, are people too lazy to take the few extra jumps to buy a skillbook or 3 that they pay ultra-inflated prices in Jita? lolz

[Fordel]

I used to use the market in Essence - Oursaulet (or how ever you spell it, just search Ours in the system search). The prices were always in line or cheaper then the surrounding regions and was plenty of availability for just about everything... and unlike Jita it had at its busiest 200ish people instead of 2k :). If something wasn't in system it was only a hop or two away. Good place to offload the newbie minerals at fair prices too.

[ajax34i]

The only things that sell well in Jita are minerals and salvage components, for everything else I seem to find better prices in my regional/local market.  I'm talking ships, ammo, and certainly named modules.

[MahrinSkel]

You get better prices in other markets, but if you're trying to move large volumes, there's not anywhere near the depth elsewhere.  One weeks worth of my armor hardeners and energy vamps can fill the entire volume for a secondary market for a month or more, and knock the price way down, I can move them all in Jita in a matter of days without affecting the price much.

--Dave

[foodini]

Well, the saga continues.  Spambunker asked me to keep you all in the loop:

Anarkyst > Wats up Doc!
spambunker > Not much.  Hanging out in station and listening to some goon friends chat.
Anarkyst > ic ic...well, tell me, how many orders with alts and everything do u have up?
spambunker > 'bout 80 of them just took out a bunch of BoB's carriers.
Anarkyst > BoBs r devs and cheats
spambunker > I have no idea.  Why?
Anarkyst > Well, I was just wondering if u're the only one with such low prices...
Anarkyst > Cause its just a couple of alts selling with low prices
Anarkyst > I get it - its still a profit and so on and so forth
Anarkyst > But dont u think it's a good time we called a truce and brought our prices up?
spambunker > More of a target market analysis effect.
Anarkyst > Isnt ur analysis warped by my presence?
spambunker > Not at all.
Anarkyst > Cause we'll end up driving our prices down to the 0.01isk profit if we go on like this
spambunker > I'd still profit.  I'm well trained up.
Anarkyst > Pff, fine, waste ur time on 0.01 isk profit, I'll continue the comtetiotion
spambunker > It wouldn't be an econ experiment without some competition.
Anarkyst > How long are u planning to keep it up for?
spambunker > As long as it's interesting.  My other trade routes netted me 25M isk today, so it's more of an intellectual thing at this point.
Anarkyst > In couple of month CCP will possibly close up the "infinite heaven" of NPC corps, and u'll be forced into a player corp...
Anarkyst > Then ppl will run ur experiments into the ground, if u keep up with ur better then god attitude
spambunker > How would my joining a player corp affect my trade routes?
Anarkyst > U wont be invulnerable to wars anymore
spambunker > And this affects me how?  I run my routes in small, fast ships that you can't lock before I warp.
Anarkyst > None the less, there are bubbles and webbers, and a smaller ship can lock u b4 u warp even in a pod
Anarkyst > Why do u wish to keep ruining others business? U're amking alot of enemies around here
spambunker > You can't run a bubble outside of 0.0 space, and you've never tried to catch a lone frigate, hellbent on travel rather than combat, have you?
Anarkyst > I've caught enought frigs working for pirates
Anarkyst > U dont need to start an argument about ur invulnerability, thats UNINTELLIGENT, the game allows for u to die, so eventually u will
spambunker > Okay, easy enough.  I'll contract people to ship my stuff in and just podjump to make my sales.  I'll never even have to hit space.
Anarkyst > Enough said Doc, u're experiment is flawed by ur inability to get over urself, if u gonna go through all this bullshit, to cut ur own profits 10 fold, just to "run some kind of experiment", go right ahead, i got a real life.
spambunker > I'll be happy to.  In the meantime, if you want to reconsider my offer from our previous conversation, feel free to email me.

It just gives me a warm feeling inside.

[Krakrok]

50 mil and we'll wardec this guy :P

[Morat20]

50 mil and we'll wardec this guy :P

Fuck, I'll drop newb corp and come play for that. Stupid needs to be punished.

[bhodi]

It's funny, but does the guy seriously think anyone would listen to him when he uses 'u', 'ur', 'u're', and 'b4'? That's a stabbing.

[Strazos]

Agreed. That nonsense makes me physically ill.

Also, I would come back, just to pop the guy while he was moving goods.

[Yoru]

50 mil and we'll wardec this guy :P

Do it. They're the Privateers. They did almost 1 to 1 damage to the Swarm gang I was in despite being heavily outnumbered last night.

(Fuckers. We were going out to kick BoB in the nuts... Well, we did that anyway after we cleared you off the station and replaced ships.)

[Morat20]

50 mil and we'll wardec this guy :P

Do it. They're the Privateers. They did almost 1 to 1 damage to the Swarm gang I was in despite being heavily outnumbered last night.

(Fuckers. We were going out to kick BoB in the nuts... Well, we did that anyway after we cleared you off the station and replaced ships.)

Well, hell. Why couldn't they be as stupid at PvP as they are at economics?

[ajax34i]

Well, hell. Why couldn't they be as stupid at PvP as they are at economics?

Doesn't that have to do with spending their youth playing video games instead of in school?

[Krakrok]

Here's the engagement.

http://privateer.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=29061

[Yoru]

Here's the engagement.

http://privateer.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=29061

Someone's underreporting their losses on your side. Our killboard has far more Privateer kills than that engagement shows.

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22806
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22811
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22815
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22813

And two poddings:
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22816
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22812

[Krakrok]

Yeah, according to the goons one the privateers got slaughtered. I've noticed that though, people don't post all losses or kills on it. Is the goons battle thing broken or just members only?

[Morat20]

I'm sick of carebearing. I wanna kill stuff.

[Yoru]

Yeah, according to the goons one the privateers got slaughtered. I've noticed that though, people don't post all losses or kills on it. Is the goons battle thing broken or just members only?

Broken. Aside from basic functionality, the Goon board sucks.

And I wouldn't say slaughtered. I think the ratio was 2 BCs and a BS in exchange for 4 BSes. Not bad for 4 v 20+.

Not that that was all one big battle. I was the bait that got 2 Privateer BSes undocked and aggressed, lasting just long enough for the Unexpected Loving Locomotive to warp in all over their ass. The other two were moronic undock-into-a-cloud-of-Goons maneuvers. They were, of course, promptly bumped off the station, tackled, webbed and blown apart.

I'm sick of carebearing. I wanna kill stuff.

Join the Privateers and kill everything. It's the fastest way.

[Morat20]

I'm sick of carebearing. I wanna kill stuff.

Join the Privateers and kill everything. It's the fastest way.

They take PvP newbs -- especially newbs with 3-month absences due to real life? I've been meaning to leave newb corp for, oh, two years now, but given I play irregularly and tend to change focus a lot, I figured there weren't many places I'd be more comfortable in.

[dwindlehop]

Join QotSA for relaxed pew pew. There's a fairly high percentage of new to PvP but not new to Eve folks in corp.

http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=2253 - we don't fly out of Syndicate any more, but the rest is still true

I haven't had to fly solo since I joined. Also, RIOT has reasonably competent pilots for joint ops. RIOT isn't on good terms with anyone, though neither is Privateers for that matter.

[dwindlehop]

Er, in case it didn't come out in my previous post I have not been impressed with the combat acumen of your average Privateers pilot.

[Krakrok]

Carrier that got sploded today. Was the first day the guy owned it. Not quite sure what he was doing with it as there was only 4-5 guys on him before the big gang showed up. He had full drones out too.

[foodini]

At it again:

spambunker > Yes?
Anarkyst > Wats up bum spanker?!
spambunker > Kicker is the word you're after, I believe.  I'm up 190M this week.  How about you?
Anarkyst > 250-300
spambunker > I see your capacity for exaggeration is almost as engorged as your ego.
Anarkyst > I figured I'd put 10 ppl working for the corp and make some cake that way
Anarkyst > I dont want to maintain hundreds of orders, let some1 else do it
spambunker > Takes me about 10 minutes a day.  Why pay someone else when my own judgement is better than anyone else's?
Anarkyst > Takes me nothing at all, money just keeps rolling in.
Anarkyst > And I dont have to deal with stress from the likes of u
spambunker > Well congrats.  Then why is it that you waste your time (and mine) on these entertaining little tet-a-tets?
Anarkyst > For personal enjoyment when I get stoned...
spambunker > Like I couldn't already tell that you were a few brain cells short?
Anarkyst > /emote sips the beer...
Anarkyst > U ever though u got a superiority complex?
spambunker > You ever realize that you have an issue with your typing?
Anarkyst > U might be the shit in ur narrow band of science, but can u tell me how the stereo radar works?
Anarkyst > Its not an issue, its "abbreviations" look that word up
spambunker > so, 'though' is an 'abbreviation' for?
spambunker > ...and I suppose stereo radar isn't a narrow band of science?
Anarkyst > For nigga speak "I'll put an cap in ur white ass"
Anarkyst > Its wider then North American marketing
spambunker > This is what, the second month in a row that you've been trying to threaten me?  Do you have a plan for it to actually work this time?
Anarkyst > lol, what u mean?
Anarkyst > I dont give much care to u, just like an annoiment which I've succesfully avoided
spambunker > Well, you've been threatening me for quite some time and I'm still waiting for you to make good.  And if you really don't care, then why the pathological need to converse?
Anarkyst > U serious?
Anarkyst > I told u, enjoyment, I never saw someone type with their head stuck up their hind.
spambunker > Well, that's because with your head up your ass, it's a bit hard to see yourself type.
Anarkyst > Thx for the personal insight, its just too much info for me to take
Anarkyst > I'm not a big fan of anal penetrations
spambunker > Maybe you should let your boyfriend know, then.
Anarkyst > What can I say "You bitch!", lol
spambunker > Yes, very witty indeed.  Strain your last remaining mental capacities to scare that one up?  It's probably a good thing that you at least manage to entertain yourself.