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TrippyNews
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Reply #35 on: March 03, 2007, 02:57:31 AM

Test.
Teleku
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Reply #36 on: March 03, 2007, 08:23:39 AM

Im still missing the great benifit of leaking information that cant be spread here.  Exactly what difference does it make if Schild never got to hear those things on the balcony at the SOE party?  Or what ever random insider tips he has picked up.  I mean, what the hell is the purpose of leaking it anyways?  How does this effect gaming journalism at all?  If it all isnt comming out untill the game company makes the official announcement anyways, whats wrong with everybody shutting the fuck up so theres no chance of a leak?  Not flaming, just seriously dont see the point of the argument right now......

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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Dundee
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Reply #37 on: March 03, 2007, 10:34:59 AM

Im still missing the great benifit of leaking information that cant be spread here.  Exactly what difference does it make if Schild never got to hear those things on the balcony at the SOE party?  Or what ever random insider tips he has picked up.  I mean, what the hell is the purpose of leaking it anyways?  How does this effect gaming journalism at all?  If it all isnt comming out untill the game company makes the official announcement anyways, whats wrong with everybody shutting the fuck up so theres no chance of a leak?  Not flaming, just seriously dont see the point of the argument right now......

It gives the reporters time to write their report, so that when you yell Boo! they can immediately post their storyit.

But they have to agree not to post the story too soon, too.

e.g. when Raph announced his company, two companies reported the announcement at the same instant as the announcement, and one scooping the other would have been bad, as their website wasn't active yet...

But that's different than receiving a tip from a tipster on your tip-phone.

Jeff Freeman
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Reply #38 on: March 03, 2007, 01:07:38 PM

Im still missing the great benifit of leaking information that cant be spread here.  Exactly what difference does it make if Schild never got to hear those things on the balcony at the SOE party?  Or what ever random insider tips he has picked up.  I mean, what the hell is the purpose of leaking it anyways?  How does this effect gaming journalism at all?  If it all isnt comming out untill the game company makes the official announcement anyways, whats wrong with everybody shutting the fuck up so theres no chance of a leak?  Not flaming, just seriously dont see the point of the argument right now......

It gives the reporters time to write their report, so that when you yell Boo! they can immediately post their storyit.

But they have to agree not to post the story too soon, too.

e.g. when Raph announced his company, two companies reported the announcement at the same instant as the announcement, and one scooping the other would have been bad, as their website wasn't active yet...

But that's different than receiving a tip from a tipster on your tip-phone.


What he said.

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Ubiq
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Reply #39 on: March 03, 2007, 01:58:22 PM

Im still missing the great benifit of leaking information that cant be spread here.  Exactly what difference does it make if Schild never got to hear those things on the balcony at the SOE party?  Or what ever random insider tips he has picked up.  I mean, what the hell is the purpose of leaking it anyways?  How does this effect gaming journalism at all?  If it all isnt comming out untill the game company makes the official announcement anyways, whats wrong with everybody shutting the fuck up so theres no chance of a leak?  Not flaming, just seriously dont see the point of the argument right now......
Some people talk because they're venting.  Some people talk because they think no one can hear them ranting to a co-worker.  Some people talk because they had too much to drink and are trying to impress a pretty girl.  And some talk just to feel important, when they're making 8 bucks an hour doing the crap work.

When the UO2 document was linked on Dr. Twister's site, the leaker turned out to not even be an Origin employee.  He was (if I remember correctly) a recently fired QA guy in EA Redwood Shores who wanted to get back at the organization.  (note: this turned out to be a really bad idea for him).  There is no way for information to avoid getting out - especially if you want to have a company culture where people people are excited about what other people in the organization are working on.

What a lot of people underestimate, with their slashdot "information wants to be free, yo" attitude, is how much time and energy it takes to recover and deal with a surprise announcement.  Rumors, for example, rarely contain the context decisions are contained in, or key components that turn a wacky, crazy idea into a smart one. 
Dundee
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Reply #40 on: March 03, 2007, 03:24:14 PM

What a lot of people underestimate, with their slashdot "information wants to be free, yo" attitude, is how much time and energy it takes to recover and deal with a surprise announcement.  Rumors, for example, rarely contain the context decisions are contained in, or key components that turn a wacky, crazy idea into a smart one. 

I think in this case it took more time and energy to react all wrong.  evil

Jeff Freeman
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Reply #41 on: March 03, 2007, 11:23:26 PM

Im still missing the great benifit of leaking information that cant be spread here.  Exactly what difference does it make if Schild never got to hear those things on the balcony at the SOE party?  Or what ever random insider tips he has picked up.  I mean, what the hell is the purpose of leaking it anyways?  How does this effect gaming journalism at all?  If it all isnt comming out untill the game company makes the official announcement anyways, whats wrong with everybody shutting the fuck up so theres no chance of a leak?  Not flaming, just seriously dont see the point of the argument right now......

Because knowing the truth, or at least what an insider feels is the truth, has the potential to make me (or any other writer) less stupid.  And that is important, for the will to be stupid is a powerful thing.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
DataGod
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Reply #42 on: March 04, 2007, 11:54:02 AM

"As much as a hungry public likes to hear rumors and gossip and secrets, sometimes it just comes down to respecting relationships you have with other human beings"

Spot on dude.

Like/Dislike does not equate to being an asshat when it comes to business. And this goes for any industry, it does not on the other hand mean I want to hang out and drink some beer with people I dont like.
lariac
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Reply #43 on: March 04, 2007, 11:27:38 PM

Don't the gaming press and the gaming companies have a symbiotic relationship? Companies want the press to create some buzz around their games. Press wants insider info to get as many eyeballs on their product.

I liked your piece schlid, but it seemed a little dramatic and reminded me of chicken little.

I think Kotaku did everything right up until they posted the private emails.

The reason why I say this is that they got a tip, went around and collected shit Sony said publicly that reinforced that tip and then posted it.

Sony should have said "No comment" or try to give them a "scoop" on something that wasn't all that important.

Either way, both sides made mistakes. Both acted like asshats.


`A`ohe lokomaika`i i nele i ke pāna`i
schild
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Reply #44 on: March 04, 2007, 11:40:25 PM

I never actually said the sky is falling. Not even in theory. I'm merely stating that whatever relationship may exist between companies and press was just fucked by Kotaku. It's not crying wolf either - it's exactly what they did. You can call it dramatic, but you have no clue how much information press gets.

At any given time press knows more than they should. Every day, all the time, every member of the gaming press has to bite his tongue about something. The fact Kotaku couldn't bite their tongue for something happening so soon is the problem. Sony really did NOTHING wrong here. Sony knew, the first time Kotaku contacted them that someone had said things they shouldn't have. The only people at fault here are the person who blabbed and Kotaku. Sony, honestly - this time, managed to be involved with something that they couldn't win. They MAY have handled it badly with the emails, but the fact they were published, man - no one ever should have known about them. I want to get drunk and pop Crecente right in the kisser. Scratch that, I want to do it sober. Tasteless motherfucker.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #45 on: March 05, 2007, 12:04:44 AM

Entertainment journalism serves no particular purpose anyway, besides letting dumbass readers feel like they're "in the know" and somehow connected to the world they're reading about.  Informed criticism is one thing, since it warns you when something sucks and should not have money wasted upon it, but...

If every gaming-related company went to a policy of utter secrecy, and hired a bunch of ex-KGB to enforce this policy, how would anyone be worse off?  Games would still be released, people would still play them, and people here would still talk about them.

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stray
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Reply #46 on: March 05, 2007, 06:13:03 AM

That's worse off because it's nothing more than de-personalizing the industry. Treating it no different than bottles of Ajax or canned soup. Entertainment may not need "journalism" per se, but it doesn't need that either.
agathon
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Reply #47 on: March 05, 2007, 11:32:44 AM

I'm still not clear on the downside here. I come to sites like f13.net to (mostly) lurk and read insightful debate about MMOs from the perspective of players who play them. Generally the devs don't say much here they don't say on their own blogs (for those devs who have them). I know it probably sucks not to get to go to the back rooms at events like GDC, but that is generally beside the point for sites like this, right? Sure, fan sites probably got screwed a bit, but I doubt one guy posting a lame press release before its time is really going to bring down 1up or IGN. The industry needs lapdog sites just as much as the sites need the industry.
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Reply #48 on: March 05, 2007, 11:54:05 AM

If only it were just a lame press release.
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Reply #49 on: March 05, 2007, 02:27:03 PM

I love you and wish to have your man-babies. And I will be buying you a drink this week if you're going to be at GDC. What really pisses me off is that when it comes time to point out my shortcomings during a performance review, I get these assclowns thrown in my face as the level of posting I should aspire too.

So now we have Kotaku who is one click away from upskirt celeb shots and New York queen gossip coupled with Joystiq and AOL as the paragons of our field. I'll be over here, arranging my shotguns by barrel flavor.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #50 on: March 05, 2007, 02:33:32 PM

That's worse off because it's nothing more than de-personalizing the industry. Treating it no different than bottles of Ajax or canned soup. Entertainment may not need "journalism" per se, but it doesn't need that either.

Even in my hypothetical dark alternate world, all our rednames would still be free to come here and talk about the interesting (but non-confidential) things they talk about now.  Every bit of discourse you, Stray, currently encounter would remain as it is, since it's all public anyway.

Or to put it another way, Schild, if everyone in the industry decided to never tell you any supar seekrit infoz ever again, how would the average reader know the difference?

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
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Reply #51 on: March 05, 2007, 03:33:42 PM

I love you and wish to have your man-babies. And I will be buying you a drink this week if you're going to be at GDC.

I will volunteer to jump on that grenade and serve as schild's liquor proxy.  cool
d4rkj3di
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Reply #52 on: March 05, 2007, 03:47:55 PM

I love you and wish to have your man-babies. And I will be buying you a drink this week if you're going to be at GDC.

I will volunteer to jump on that grenade and serve as schild's liquor proxy.  cool

Coordinate with the Waterthread Tard, and let's be Barbarians at the Golden Gate.
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Reply #53 on: March 05, 2007, 04:10:32 PM

I love you and wish to have your man-babies. And I will be buying you a drink this week if you're going to be at GDC.

I will volunteer to jump on that grenade and serve as schild's liquor proxy.  cool

Coordinate with the Waterthread Tard, and let's be Barbarians at the Golden Gate.

The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
HaemishM
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Reply #54 on: March 06, 2007, 02:53:58 PM

It seems like Schild is pissed because Kotaku is threatening the apparently cozy relationship between game sites and developers.  Should game sites have a cozy relationship with developers?  Or should they be like the mad-dog reporters in the White House press room?  This relationship should be explored further.

What the fuck are "gaming journalists" going to report on that is so super important that you have to be a mad dog reporter? NOTHING. The scandals in the game industry are TRIFLING, and scandals are the only thing worth maddogging a story about. It isn't like people are dying here; the best we have is kids having seizures to Pokemon games, or letting their babies starve to death because they won't log off of EQ. We all know the PS3 is overpriced, we all know Microsoft is trying to borg whatever market they get into.

Gaming journalism is part of the hype machine, not the Fourth Estate of the Gaming Nation.

Inexorable
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Reply #55 on: March 07, 2007, 03:04:00 AM

It seems like Schild is pissed because Kotaku is threatening the apparently cozy relationship between game sites and developers.  Should game sites have a cozy relationship with developers?  Or should they be like the mad-dog reporters in the White House press room?  This relationship should be explored further.

What the fuck are "gaming journalists" going to report on that is so super important that you have to be a mad dog reporter? NOTHING. The scandals in the game industry are TRIFLING, and scandals are the only thing worth maddogging a story about. It isn't like people are dying here; the best we have is kids having seizures to Pokemon games, or letting their babies starve to death because they won't log off of EQ. We all know the PS3 is overpriced, we all know Microsoft is trying to borg whatever market they get into.

Gaming journalism is part of the hype machine, not the Fourth Estate of the Gaming Nation.

Well said. I certainly hold our hobby in a high regard, and respect it as a legitimate creative art and all the rest of it, but Jesus, it's just not that important.


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agathon
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Reply #56 on: March 07, 2007, 07:18:49 AM

It seems like Schild is pissed because Kotaku is threatening the apparently cozy relationship between game sites and developers.  Should game sites have a cozy relationship with developers?  Or should they be like the mad-dog reporters in the White House press room?  This relationship should be explored further.

What the fuck are "gaming journalists" going to report on that is so super important that you have to be a mad dog reporter? NOTHING. The scandals in the game industry are TRIFLING, and scandals are the only thing worth maddogging a story about. It isn't like people are dying here; the best we have is kids having seizures to Pokemon games, or letting their babies starve to death because they won't log off of EQ. We all know the PS3 is overpriced, we all know Microsoft is trying to borg whatever market they get into.

Gaming journalism is part of the hype machine, not the Fourth Estate of the Gaming Nation.

So no real impact from this Kotaku thing for us unwashed masses, then.
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Reply #57 on: March 07, 2007, 08:39:46 AM

Other than bloggers like myself getting MORE ignored from game companies, and folks like schild having to suck up to publishers instead of just emailing them and being given some common fucking courtesy, no, I don't see much impact for Kotaku being a dick.

It's funny, the developers of the games I've dealt with have always been damn helpful when you email them asking about stuff like review copies or interviews. It's when you start to reach the publisher level that it gets shitty. IF they even deign to respond to you, it's usually dismissive. I will give THQ props for being very helpful when I emailed them about review copies of a few X-Box games. None of the other publishers bother responding to me.

The developer/press relationship is usually pretty good. The developers want every single outlet they can get, and they deserve some respect. The bigger publishers don't respect bloggers/indy press outlets, but getting in a tizzy because they want you to wait on an announcement? It's trifling, it's stupid and it makes all the indy writers look bad. But in the end, the hype machine will continue to work like it always has, because there's always another Kotaku out there somewhere.

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Reply #58 on: March 07, 2007, 09:53:32 AM

One aspect of this that I don't think you're seeing is that dependency runs both ways when journalists and their sources both have a need to circulate information or content.

A game developer can't entirely shut out all gaming journalists and commenters even if they wanted to, even if every gaming journalist in the world was a lying cocksucker who would betray any confidence just for shits and giggles. Because when you want to get information out there, where are you going to go? Because when your product depends on buzz and hype, how you going to do it?

It's no less the case when it's Washington reporters and people inside the White House. And that's an instructive case: sometimes when that relationship gets too symbiotic, too cozy, then the overall quality of information available to the public declines precipitiously. We're dealing with some of the fallout of that problem now at the national level.

And, I'd submit, Sony is dealing with some of the fallout of that now as a company, and the games industry has some endemic problems that are a result of its inability to bend its head around the possibilities of games and the necessities of being both a content and service provider. The relationship between gamers and game developers is not like the relationship between TV producers and TV audiences, by and large, "fan studies" notwithstanding. It's a much closer, more complex relationship. Sony has gotten itself in a place where their managers are in see-no-evil, hear-no-evil mode, and that leads to consequences. Among them, ill will from gamers, and attenuated loyalty from people in a position to do expert or journalistic commentary on Sony's business and design decisions. For which I would argue Sony is largely to blame.

Game developers, by and large, would benefit from greater transparency in discussing how and what they do, in multiple ways. I think Schild is going in the opposite direction with this by arguing that Kotaku's dickery somehow makes it impossible for game developers to be confidentially straight with a small class of journalists "in the know". I would rather argue that this shows that the games industry remains, like many cultural industries, too obsessed with controlling the flows of information, and too confident in its ability to manage those flows. When the product is good, the discussions are good. You can help persuade gamers about the goodness of a product by talking transparently about what it is, and how it came to be. When the product has serious issues--as the Sony PSP does, and the PS3 does--you can't somehow manage your way out of that, or use confidential channels, etc.

I'm also wondering: if strong preservation of confidentiality helps someone like Schild get information which he really never can process into some kind of open discussion, who does it benefit except Schild or someone like him? When does it come into play that helps the consumer of information, the reader, a wider community, etc?  I think it does lead to a benefit to a wider readership in the end, but it's not an obvious claim.

None of this is to say that Kotaku aren't dicks. Or that it's right to betray professional and personal confidences. There are plenty of things that people in the industry have told me over the years that helped me to understand design issues. But at the same time, I've occasionally been told that for some reason a shared professionalism between academics and designers should keep me from criticizing MMOG community management, or should lead me to presumptively respect the decisions that designers make as being legitimate. Neither of which I agree with: professionalism and personal trust always has to balance against the delivery of honest, fair-minded criticism. If you let the former consistently outweigh the latter, you become little more than a mouthpiece. That's what has happened to some inside-the-Beltway journalists in the last ten years: they've become court jesters who are easily manipulated by mid-level bureaucrats with an agenda. It's what happens to some cultural journalists: they get so cozy with the subjects of their reporting that they are easily manipulated into praising or hyping a product that the wider audience regards as dubious or flawed.
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Reply #59 on: March 07, 2007, 10:13:28 AM

One aspect of this that I don't think you're seeing is that dependency runs both ways when journalists and their sources both have a need to circulate information or content.

A game developer can't entirely shut out all gaming journalists and commenters even if they wanted to, even if every gaming journalist in the world was a lying cocksucker who would betray any confidence just for shits and giggles. Because when you want to get information out there, where are you going to go? Because when your product depends on buzz and hype, how you going to do it?

Money. See, most industries don't have ready-made frothing zealots so eager to get the latest info first that they'd sell their withered genitalia to get an alpha copy. Those industries have to use what we call MARKETING, and that costs money. They use TV ads, direct mail, advertorial pieces in newspapers, print magazines, whatever it takes. The game industry has been consistently dysfunctional, one would even say RETARDED in its growth, because it's had that ready-made base of zealots. Hell, it gets hordes of them to do quality assurance testing FOR FREE, and not only to do it for free, but see it as a fucking privilege. Ford Motor Company would give their employee's medical plans to have it that easy.

Removing the random indy mouthpiece would either mean they'd have to spend more marketing money or find another whore willing to write knob-slobbing puff pieces for a free copy of the game.
 
Quote
It's no less the case when it's Washington reporters and people inside the White House. And that's an instructive case: sometimes when that relationship gets too symbiotic, too cozy, then the overall quality of information available to the public declines precipitiously. We're dealing with some of the fallout of that problem now at the national level.

Except, the publishers don't need indy "journalists." See above. They just make the marketing cheaper.

Quote
And, I'd submit, Sony is dealing with some of the fallout of that now as a company, and the games industry has some endemic problems that are a result of its inability to bend its head around the possibilities of games and the necessities of being both a content and service provider.

Sony's problems have to do with the arrogance of success, the arrogance of thinking a $600 console that's not quite fully baked is a good idea. That's fallout they'd have gotten with or without the Kotaku's of the world. The PS2's success has hurt the PS3, because of the ivory tower nature of the design and pricing. Kotaku's snit fit has nothing to do with that.

Murgos
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Reply #60 on: March 07, 2007, 01:50:40 PM

It's what happens to some cultural journalists: they get so cozy with the subjects of their reporting that they are easily manipulated into praising or hyping a product that the wider audience regards as dubious or flawed.

Except, that the absolute best story any game media outlet can break is... advertising.

Kotaku ran with their story and in a fit of integrity (or lack thereof) broke... advertising.

The only real story in game media is when a game sucks.  Do you know what a 2000 word story is when it's about a sucky game?  It's advertising, there is no such thing as bad press.

Good luck with trying to establish the moral behavior codes and ethics of free advertising outlets.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
HaemishM
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Reply #61 on: March 07, 2007, 02:39:24 PM

And it isn't just that it's free advertising outlets. It's parasitic advertising outlets, dependent on the publishers themselves for all they can get in order to be relevant. After all, many fewer people will read a review of a game that's been out 2 weeks. They want that review DAY ONE! And the only way to get that review day one is to pirate the game, buy the game and stay awake for 24 hours playing in order to have enough material to write a relevant review or get a free copy early. That doesn't even take into account that those who can't wrangle free copies by hook or by crook have to spend the money to buy the game before reviewing it. And since not having the review up the day of release means less people read your site, advertising dollars on your site aren't being used to buy games because you don't have any ad dollars.

Thus, gaming sites are generally parasites, sucking up content to excrete as free advertising for the host organism.

Dundee
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Reply #62 on: March 07, 2007, 07:03:15 PM

Thus, gaming sites are generally parasites, sucking up content to excrete as free advertising for the host organism.

I can't tell from the way you write if that's something you consider a good thing, a bad thing, or just a tough-noogies, suck-it-up thing.


Jeff Freeman
HaemishM
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Reply #63 on: March 08, 2007, 11:48:47 AM

It's a make up your own mind thing.

I frankly think it's a bad thing, but I think there's so much rotten with the games industry, it's as much a tough titties stance as anything else. The game industry needs an enema.

schild
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Reply #64 on: March 08, 2007, 02:19:09 PM

From their Fable story:

Quote
Update: Sorry for the mysterious appearing and disappearing Fable 2 story a few days ago. Turns out that despite the fact that no one mentioned it for a month, the interview, and only that one interview, was under an embargo. This was pointed out in the initial email sent out quite awhile back and never reiterated in any of the following emails, nor in the meeting itself. When I happened to mention to Shane Kim that I had posted this interview, a handler came up to me later to point out quite nicely that it was in fact embargoed until today. I immediately took it down.

Reading is hard.
DataGod
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Reply #65 on: March 10, 2007, 02:42:33 AM

And it isn't just that it's free advertising outlets. It's parasitic advertising outlets, dependent on the publishers themselves for all they can get in order to be relevant. After all, many fewer people will read a review of a game that's been out 2 weeks. They want that review DAY ONE! And the only way to get that review day one is to pirate the game, buy the game and stay awake for 24 hours playing in order to have enough material to write a relevant review or get a free copy early. That doesn't even take into account that those who can't wrangle free copies by hook or by crook have to spend the money to buy the game before reviewing it. And since not having the review up the day of release means less people read your site, advertising dollars on your site aren't being used to buy games because you don't have any ad dollars.

Thus, gaming sites are generally parasites, sucking up content to excrete as free advertising for the host organism.


Dont worry that little problem is being fixed :)~
schild
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Reply #66 on: March 10, 2007, 03:13:33 AM

Oh, is it.
DataGod
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Reply #67 on: March 10, 2007, 07:32:16 PM

Only in the web 2.0 sense of the word, I should have been more clear
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