Welcome to a male world

[sinij]

Florida city votes to fire manager who wants sex change

“It's just painful to know seven days ago I was a good guy and now ... I have no integrity,” Mr. Stanton told the commission.

[Viin]

Well, if a person in authority is wishy-washy about their own sex, they probably don't inspire a lot of confidence.

Besides, it's a gov'ment job - you can't expect stuff like that to be "ok". Hell, you can't even cheat on your wife let alone do anything "crazy".

[Selby]

Well, if a person in authority is wishy-washy about their own sex, they probably don't inspire a lot of confidence.

Well, being wishy washy is one thing.  Making the change is another quite life altering decision.

Besides, it's a gov'ment job - you can't expect stuff like that to be "ok". Hell, you can't even cheat on your wife let alone do anything "crazy".

You would be surprised what you can get away with in positions of power ;-)  Everyone loves a good scandal, most of the times you even get to keep your job.  But there are certain areas that are just too taboo to get away with even in the modern days of "depending on the what the definition of 'is' is..."  Drinking problem?  We'll keep electing you!  Cheating on your wife or having a problem with pills?  That's all right, everyone has their faults.  Gay lover?  All right, we'll forgive you in the right conditions if you have been doing a good job or have the right political connections.  Bending or breaking society's rules on gender?  Hey, we draw the line at stuff like that!

[Paelos]

Meh, this will head to politics soon, so I'll just get my shot in now that I think it's pretty naive to expect people to be like "oh yeah sex change, sure why not?" Getting fired over it though? I'd say a good lawyer will have a nice little field day with this given our laws.

[Evangolis]

I have several friends in the TG community.  They are uniformly bright, experienced, and well educated people who have a lot of problems finding a job.

[Nevermore]

Well, if a person in authority is wishy-washy about their own sex, they probably don't inspire a lot of confidence.

You'd think the fact that for 14 years he's been doing the job in, by most accounts, an exemplary fashion would inpsire some confidence though.

[Sky]

HOT TRANNY FIRE CHIEF

She'll put out the fire then light one in your pants.

I've got dibs on the video rights.

[tazelbain]

I like how they say "integrity" the issue.  Corwards.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

They're doing it for the children.  Little Billy looks up to the brave fireman, and when he finds out the fire chief has a fancy new vagina, he's gonna want one too.  How's a parent supposed to respond to that?

"No, Billy, Santy Claus can't bring you a fancy new vagina this year!  Stop asking!"

Is that the kinda ordeal you liberals want to put families through?

[Lantyssa]

Well, if a person in authority is wishy-washy about their own sex, they probably don't inspire a lot of confidence.

Besides, it's a gov'ment job - you can't expect stuff like that to be "ok". Hell, you can't even cheat on your wife let alone do anything "crazy".

Wishy-washy is changing back later.  It takes a lot more dedication to see this process through than the average government worker will ever put forth.

Low-level government jobs are one of the safest places to be.  Unfortunately she is head of the department, and it's not up to just the mayor.  It is up to the damnable city council, who are concerned about the next election.

Meh, this will head to politics soon, so I'll just get my shot in now that I think it's pretty naive to expect people to be like "oh yeah sex change, sure why not?" Getting fired over it though? I'd say a good lawyer will have a nice little field day with this given our laws.

No, she's pretty much out of luck on the job.  At-will contract and no policy against discrimination for gender identity, which they voted down in 2003.  (Longer Article)

Welcome to the ugly daily reality for many transgenders.

[Paelos]

I don't know enough people in this camp to have a really first-hand knowledge of this issue. It seems to be one of those lifestyles that gravitates towards the gay communities, so there's no shock I don't know many considering I only have a handful of gay friends. I do think it sucks that people get fired, but you are dropping a pretty huge bomb on people. I'm not tolerant enough to say it wouldn't freak my shit out, but that's just pure honesty.

As for the laws, it's a tough lobby to get things changed when you're that much of a minority. I mean gays got together, but from what I've heard that's 10% of the population. I can't imagine TG can pull that kind of power. Is it fair? I'd say it's pretty irrelevant that you changed genders and applied for a job. I'd say if you changed genders while AT a job, you've violated your at-will contract because you aren't the same person they hired.

[Murgos]

Yeah, going back and changing all the paperwork on the insurance forms alone would be so expensive so as to make termination a valid option.     Not to mention having to build a whole new set of restrooms (THIS HAPPENED AT THE LAST PLACE I WORKED!).

And frankly, trans-gendered is probably a good word, because most of these people look neither male or female.  I wish her good luck though, she's going to need it.  I am sure she thinks that this change will solve some of her problems but it's just going to introduce a whole new set of them.

[Evangolis]

It seems to be one of those lifestyles that gravitates towards the gay communities, so there's no shock I don't know many considering I only have a handful of gay friends.

Actually, most TGs I know don't identify as gay; they identify as the being sex they aren't.  Who they sleep with isn't the primary issue for them, the issue is who they are.  It can be a bit to get your head around if you worry about who other people sleep with, but I gave up caring about other people's sex lives after I shared a house with three women who were dating a heavy metal bar band.  Any other choice resulted in my being either disgusted or envious, or, most commonly, both.

Edit:  I think I know how to phrase this, finally.  I know some guys who have/are undertaken to modify their body to female because that is the body that feels 'right' to them, but who continue to sleep with women, because they aren't entirely comfortable sleeping with men.  OTOH, I also know male to female TGs who have entirely transitioned to a purely female role.  (Mind you, my experience is based on a very small sample.  I'm sure there are issues I don't grasp. In fact, I know there are.)

[Lantyssa]

They look neither male or female because you never know the people who blend in just fine.

With a growing awareness and acceptance, people are realizing who they are at younger ages, young enough that hormone treatments make them physically indisinguishable from their cis-gendered counterparts.  It's not like most are going to be in your face about who they are.  Why make oneself a target needlessly?

As I said in Dani's award thread, if she has come this far she needs to make the change.  What she faces will suck, but it's better than adding to some very unpleasant statistics, and in the end she will be happier.

[Calantus]

I don't know enough people in this camp to have a really first-hand knowledge of this issue. It seems to be one of those lifestyles that gravitates towards the gay communities, so there's no shock I don't know many considering I only have a handful of gay friends. I do think it sucks that people get fired, but you are dropping a pretty huge bomb on people. I'm not tolerant enough to say it wouldn't freak my shit out, but that's just pure honesty.

As for the laws, it's a tough lobby to get things changed when you're that much of a minority. I mean gays got together, but from what I've heard that's 10% of the population. I can't imagine TG can pull that kind of power. Is it fair? I'd say it's pretty irrelevant that you changed genders and applied for a job. I'd say if you changed genders while AT a job, you've violated your at-will contract because you aren't the same person they hired.

I get a bit freaked out by transgenders that still look too mannish. I don't have a problem with the concept, if someone told me they were transgendered I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. But seeing a transgender that still looks quite like a man sets off the part in my brain that says "this is wrong!" when I see things that are not quite right about humans, like when seeing a really close but flawed animation of one.

Disregarding what the law actually says, but I'd think it shouldn't really violate your at-will contract unless your job requires a certain gender or a certain level of attractiveness (because often handsome men make ugly women). Changing your physical gender doesn't really change who you are IMO, nor should it affect your ability to perform your job.

Tough break for the fire manager, but I'd hope she was expecting this sort of thing (as wrong as I think it is), because if she doesn't pass for a woman she's in for a very tough life and that should have been explained to her by now.

[Paelos]

Serious question about this. I don't hear much about the female to male transgenders. Is this common, or is the majority of TG male to female?

[Calantus]

I didn't find any statistics on how numerous the two types of transgenders are, but I did find some interesting statistics here (NOTE: while it's SFW, it's a transgender support site, so don't visit it where you'd get interesting questions if seen).

90% of female-to-male transsexuals and 61% of male-to-female transsexuals are sexually satisfied.

70% of female-to-male transsexuals and 43% of male-to-female transsexuals retain close contact with their families.

57% of female-to-male transsexuals and 27% of male-to-female transsexuals form lasting romantic partnerships.

100% of female-to-male transsexuals and 60% of male-to-female transsexuals inform their partners about their transsexualism.

5% of female-to-male transsexuals and 21% of male to female transsexuals have made a suicide attempt.

100% of sexual partners of female-to-male transsexuals are female. 60% of sexual partners of male-to-female transsexuals are male.

-- Source: The Great Divide (How Females & Males Really Differ) by Daniel Evan Weiss, drawn from data originally appearing in Archives of Sexual Behavior, December 1988 issue.

That to me says that female-male transgenders probably have it a lot easier and are less likely to be heard about because of it. So I guess they could potentially be about the same in numbers but we're just not as aware of it. My gut tells me they'd be slightly less common though because females don't have as much pressure to "act like a woman" like men get "act like a man" (I myself have problems accepting girly-men and I'm pretty open to a lot of ideas).

[SnakeCharmer]

I don't think it's got anything to do with a 'male dominated world' (which I am HOPING that it is said in jest).  More than anything, it's probably being viewed as a security risk.  Now before you freak about that statement, hear me out.  Lots of state and federal jobs are 'sensitive' to someones background; for example a credit check.  If you have lousy credit, you'd probably miss out on a call back for a second interview.  This is due to the fact that (as one example) besides the obvious (bad credit = irresponsible), someone with bad credit (high debt) could be vulnerable to bribery.

[Paelos]

Well that answers my question sort of. I'd like to see some actual breakdowns on the numbers, but I can definitely see the social bias towards M-F rather than F-M because men have set standards of manhood since early times. Anthropologically those haven't changed much, and this falls outside those boundries.

[Lantyssa]

I don't have an update on those numbers, unfortunately research is fairly sketchy and suffers greatly from patients telling their doctors what they think they want to hear for fear of not receiving treatment.

An old figure (APA I believe) was that 1 in 30,000 men were transsexual and 1 in 100,000 women.  More recently it is believed the numbers are actually very close and rates are as high as 1 in 10,000 were suspected.  (It's been a while since I've seen figures, though, so take that last number with a grain of salt.)

Women have a much easier time cross-dressing and acting or looking masculine.  They were also further behind in support and awareness, so it simply wasn't known about as an option.  There is also a big difference in how the lesbian community treats FTMs compared to gays (or straights) and MTFs.  Thankfully the activist organizations are starting to embrace the 'T' in the GLBT they have been promoting.  HRC and others came to realize they need to stand as firm on trans issues as they do gay issues or they lost credibility.

There was a study a few months ago that put the attempted suicide rate of living transsexuals at 30%.  The "success" rate is likely rather dismal.

I realize Wikipedia is often frowned upon.  However, it has what I consider a very good, comprehensive coverage for anyone who is interested.  (I imagine the community polices this entry rather heavily.)

[Riggswolfe]

I realize Wikipedia is often frowned upon.  However, it has what I consider a very good, comprehensive coverage for anyone who is interested.  (I imagine the community polices this entry rather heavily.)

I have never understood why people frown on Wikipedia. I mean we're all just arguing on the internet. It can be a useful source even if it's not 100% reliable.

As for the topic at hand, the only exposure I had was a girl who was partway through changing over (had the hormones but not the surgery) in this errr...club I joined for about a month in my experimental days. (BDSM, I discovered it's an awesome fantasy but not for me if anyone cares.)

I also was at a work place where a guy was going through that change as well. He looked horrible. Imagine some comedy movie where a very manly looking man puts on a wig and some lipstick and you've got his image. Like Bubba Smith from those Police Academy movies doing it. (which I think he did in one.)

You know, I've often wondered if I met an awesome woman, we got along great, but I found out she was at one point a man, if I would continue the relationship. I know it's shallow but that would be in the back of my mind and I wonder if all my liberal social ideals would hold out in that situation. I suspect that is why some of those MTF statistics are so low.

[Johny Cee]

Seems the thread to put this.  Taken from William Spaniel's recent article on Brainburst.com,  a Magic the Gathering website:

Fun With Gender Bending
On Monday, Riki Hayashi let the proverbial cat out of the bag at least on TCGplayer that the Great Designer Search winner Alexis Janson is transgender. This is an interesting topic for obvious reasons. Indeed, even before I debuted on this site, Riki and I had debated why Wizards was avoiding the subject. He also wondered why Magic Musings, despite its always controversial tone, had not ventured into that minefield.

So does Wizards hate the LGBT community? Why would MM avoid such an intriguing story? Is Brian David-Marshall a bad reporter for not asking Janson the burning question? Does any of this actually matter?

The answer, of course, lies in the third question. When I first realized that Janson was not born a woman, I knew I had an intriguing section for the following week's MM. But when I got to the keyboard to start typing it, I never made it past the first sentence. “Why,” as my internal monologue began kicking in, “does any of this matter?” If somehow having a few operations radically alters the process of her winning, then it's a valid subject to bring up, yet I do not think switching genders makes a person a better designer. (If I am wrong on that last point, sound off on the forums. For now, I'll guess you guys are going to come up dry on this one.) As is, though, it just doesn't relate to anything Magic, and while that hasn't stopped me from writing on particular topics before, I won't do it simply for controversy's sake. Poke fun at the high and mighty, not the vulnerable, right?

If TCGplayer were to suddenly turn into an LGBT special interest group tomorrow, then I would be happy to tackle the subject. Until that day arrives, just keep saying this to yourself: Alexis Janson is a woman. She used to be a man. Maybe some of you find that a little weird. So what?

[Selby]

Serious question about this. I don't hear much about the female to male transgenders. Is this common, or is the majority of TG male to female?

There are quite a few female to male transgenders out there.  Let's just say I never would have guessed by just looking at people walking down the street or when they were introduced to me when I was told later on. All of the ones I've known basically look like a slightly shorter man (of which almost everyone is shorter than me so no real difference ;-) ).

And like said before, the only reason people have the typical "looks like a manly woman" mental picture is because those are the ones that stand out.  The others?  Can't tell.  And if they can blend in so well, a good portion aren't going to be continuously waving the flag.  They are going to drift back into society and very few will ever find out or know.  Which is why the community doesn't have the lobbying power of any of the other "alternate" communities.

[Stephen Zepp]

I realize Wikipedia is often frowned upon.  However, it has what I consider a very good, comprehensive coverage for anyone who is interested.  (I imagine the community polices this entry rather heavily.)

I have never understood why people frown on Wikipedia. I mean we're all just arguing on the internet. It can be a useful source even if it's not 100% reliable.

Because it is so amazingly vulnerable to revisionism. 50 years from now I can hold out a copy of any hard cover encyclopedia and say "well, this is what it said then". Not so with Wikipedia, and the more "authority" it has now, the scarier it is. When people start trusting something that is by definition designed to be changed over time as an authoritative source of information, it's Big Brother grand mal--and it's not even by a government (or is it?).

[Yoru]

I realize Wikipedia is often frowned upon.  However, it has what I consider a very good, comprehensive coverage for anyone who is interested.  (I imagine the community polices this entry rather heavily.)

I have never understood why people frown on Wikipedia. I mean we're all just arguing on the internet. It can be a useful source even if it's not 100% reliable.

Because it is so amazingly vulnerable to revisionism. 50 years from now I can hold out a copy of any hard cover encyclopedia and say "well, this is what it said then". Not so with Wikipedia, and the more "authority" it has now, the scarier it is. When people start trusting something that is by definition designed to be changed over time as an authoritative source of information, it's Big Brother grand mal--and it's not even by a government (or is it?).

Well, there is the Revision History if you care to look, but that's a good bit of effort. And that history, of course, is vulnerable to malicious alteration if someone breaks into their server.

(Aside: Thanks for keeping it civil and out of Politics territory. Keep it up, folks. :) ) (We need a : happypanda : ...)

[Margalis]

I was going to mention the MTG stuff. Some people went as far as to say that Alexis was somehow cheating by "pretending" to be female.

This is what really bothers me:

Commissioner Mary Gray Black said Mr. Stanton's surprise announcement last week “caused stress, turmoil, distraction and work disruption” among other city employees.

I see this logic all the time. Small-minded bigots are offended by something so the solution is to terminate the offender rather than tell the bigots to STFU. You can make the same argument about integrating black people into society - and people *did* make those exact same arguments at the time!

It is always the same. Having an uppity nigger in our midsts will cause chaos. Having fags in the foxhole will undermine our morale. Having a transgendered fire chief will 'cause stress.'

If you are stressed out because your boss is transgendered - tough shit asshole. Find a new job then.

One thing that always amuses me is we love to talk about how much discipline there is in the military, fire and police departments, etc. Yet the introduction of someone slightly different would apparently paralyze and distract these people so much they literally wouldn't be able to perform their jobs at all? Shouldn't places with more discipline deal better with that sort of thing?

Edit: I might have moved this to politics-level rhetoric but this sort of thing really irks me.

[lamaros]

I don't think it's got anything to do with a 'male dominated world' (which I am HOPING that it is said in jest).  More than anything, it's probably being viewed as a security risk.  Now before you freak about that statement, hear me out.  Lots of state and federal jobs are 'sensitive' to someones background; for example a credit check.  If you have lousy credit, you'd probably miss out on a call back for a second interview.  This is due to the fact that (as one example) besides the obvious (bad credit = irresponsible), someone with bad credit (high debt) could be vulnerable to bribery.

Yeah. I think blackmail and bribery and extortion are out, given the coverage.

Security Checks are about uncovering secrets, if it's not a secret...

[SnakeCharmer]

I don't think it's got anything to do with a 'male dominated world' (which I am HOPING that it is said in jest).  More than anything, it's probably being viewed as a security risk.  Now before you freak about that statement, hear me out.  Lots of state and federal jobs are 'sensitive' to someones background; for example a credit check.  If you have lousy credit, you'd probably miss out on a call back for a second interview.  This is due to the fact that (as one example) besides the obvious (bad credit = irresponsible), someone with bad credit (high debt) could be vulnerable to bribery.

Yeah. I think blackmail and bribery and extortion are out, given the coverage.

Security Checks are about uncovering secrets, if it's not a secret...

Not necessarily true.

Background and security checks are also used to uncover potential future problems (hence the bribery thing).

He could still be bribed with cash (or promise of medical 'treatment') for his / her / it's 'identity crisis' ( )

[Lantyssa]

She makes made $140k a year, in a job she had been in for fourteen years.  She is better off than the vast majority of the community when it comes to financial status.

She might be vulnerable to bribes about treating her like a human being though...

[Roac]

She makes made $140k a year, in a job she had been in for fourteen years.  She is better off than the vast majority of the community when it comes to financial status

People making more than that still get bribed, it's just that their prices go up.  See lobyists & politicians.

[Hoax]

I was going to mention the MTG stuff. Some people went as far as to say that Alexis was somehow cheating by "pretending" to be female.

This is what really bothers me:

Commissioner Mary Gray Black said Mr. Stanton's surprise announcement last week “caused stress, turmoil, distraction and work disruption” among other city employees.

I see this logic all the time. Small-minded bigots are offended by something so the solution is to terminate the offender rather than tell the bigots to STFU. You can make the same argument about integrating black people into society - and people *did* make those exact same arguments at the time!

It is always the same. Having an uppity nigger in our midsts will cause chaos. Having fags in the foxhole will undermine our morale. Having a transgendered fire chief will 'cause stress.'

If you are stressed out because your boss is transgendered - tough shit asshole. Find a new job then.

One thing that always amuses me is we love to talk about how much discipline there is in the military, fire and police departments, etc. Yet the introduction of someone slightly different would apparently paralyze and distract these people so much they literally wouldn't be able to perform their jobs at all? Shouldn't places with more discipline deal better with that sort of thing?

Edit: I might have moved this to politics-level rhetoric but this sort of thing really irks me.

ARE YOU EXPECTING US TO LEARN FROM THE PAST FFS WHO DO YOU THINK WE ARE?  JESUS?

People, still stupid, still scared of anything different.  I bet the Tranny fire chief still supports the troops and the bombing of arab countries.  Can't we all stand on that common ground?  At least we're the head of the axis-of-justice.

Don't get me wrong I'm super bigoted towards ladyboys or w/e.  We even have a codeword for them "Thai" and crack there are no women in Thailand jokes all the time when the mood hits us.  But OTOH I would be bothered but support anyone in any job I've ever worked at doing this.  Because to not support someone making this kind of choice and act "better" then them and demand their termination makes me feel twice as sick as seeing any poorly disguised man trying to be a woman ever has and I have seen lots of nasty wannabe women in my 23 years in "teh gay mecca".

[SnakeCharmer]

She makes made $140k a year, in a job she had been in for fourteen years.  She is better off than the vast majority of the community when it comes to financial status.

She might be vulnerable to bribes about treating her like a human being though...

It's got nothing to do with treating him/her like a human being, and everything to do with treating him/her as a potential security/liability risk. 

[tazelbain]

She makes made $140k a year, in a job she had been in for fourteen years.  She is better off than the vast majority of the community when it comes to financial status.

She might be vulnerable to bribes about treating her like a human being though...

It's got nothing to do with treating him/her like a human being, and everything to do with treating him/her as a potential security/liability risk. 

Same bullshit as the lack of integrity claim. Only Institutionalized.

[Morat20]

I was going to mention the MTG stuff. Some people went as far as to say that Alexis was somehow cheating by "pretending" to be female.

This is what really bothers me:

Interesting. I've only known a pair of transexuals (one was the roomate of the other), and the one I was closest to was a MtF, heavily involved in MtG and moved out to California and (as I recall) completed her transition about 5 to 10 years ago. I knew her as a pre-op who had transitioned to a female back in high school (that had to fucking suck, especially in Texas). I actually googled Alexis to see if it was the same chick. (It's not).

She probably had a very easy transition -- she started hormones early, and even pre-op passed flawlessly. If she hadn't told me, I'd have never guessed.

I got most of my views on transexuals from knowing her. They got dealt a shitty hand, and the ones with the strength to accept it and do something about it are to be admired.

[Margalis]

Why are we talking security risks? This is a local fire chief, not a CIA spook. In addition the secret is already out.

"Give up some national secrets or I'll tell everyone you were born a man!"

Yeah...that'll work...everyone knows and a local fire chief doesn't have any useful info anyway. Those sorts of security checks are a requirement at the NSA, not at your local burb.