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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: Reality, it's a subjective thing, at least for WoW developers. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Reality, it's a subjective thing, at least for WoW developers.  (Read 16044 times)
angry.bob
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Reply #35 on: February 28, 2007, 08:19:41 PM

Thus, "OMG NERF DPS HOW? WE HAVE CRAPPY SUSTAINED DPS!!!" is a silly argument to make.

The burst DPS my level 61 paladin can do with all new Outland greens is less than an average autoattack hit from my level 47 warrior. Granted, I'm 42 points in Protection, but even when I was Retribution spec just before BC, my burst DPS was still less than any of my other's characters that were 13-20 levels lower. But really, the point was that to get any serious DPS you need to go 41 points into Retribution, and even then you're hitting like a level 50 warrior's autoattack unless you flawlessly hit the right abilities in the right order, and get crits on all of them. And what most people are trying to say is that 41 points deep into a tree should at least get you to "mediocre" level on a regular basis.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #36 on: February 28, 2007, 10:10:16 PM

I play a druid for this reason, I want the variability.  I wanna start the run doing DPS, shift to helping offtank a bad pull, and then shift again to heal when the normal healer is out of mana.  That is way more fun, to me, than repeatedly mashing assist and then the 'OMG FIREBALL O DOOM' key.  It's also not very compatible with raids, but oh well.

Same reason I like my shaman so much.  Bash away with my hammer, drop a frost shock on whatever is beating on the mage, take over healing when the priest runs out of mana, and keep my strength and windfury totems down so the warrior and rogue can tear shit up.  The variety prevents one from getting too bored.  Dumped my first 15 points into Resto for max Healing Focus, and the rest are going into Enhance.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Koyasha
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Reply #37 on: February 28, 2007, 11:20:39 PM

One key to the +% talents, particularly for spells and heals, is where they stack with +damage/healing items.  Take the +12% to heals for a paladin.  Is that +12% to base heals or +12% to heals after +healing items?  If it's after +healing items, +12% to a paladin with 800 +healing is considerably more than to a paladin with no +healing.  I can't really recall where it comes in on that particular talent, but that can make or break a talent in its usefulness.  +% multiplied on top of your +damage/healing gear?  Awesome.  +% before your damage/healing gear?  Sucks.  How they interact with crits is also important.

So yes, 10% of a small number is a very small number, the thing to look at is how the talent interacts with the other things that make the number bigger.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
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Triforcer
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Reply #38 on: March 01, 2007, 05:23:26 AM

I love my boomkin druid and I pray they don't nerf him.  Last shadow labs run I was on was with people who had never instanced with a balance druid (they are so very rare, EVERY other druid I've met on my side in BC was in feral gear, I've seen like two alli balance druids) and they were all amazed how I could lead in damage.  I could wait 3-4 sunders on some very high hp mobs and still get aggro by the end.  And since all my +dmg gear is also +heal, I've successfully PUG healed all the non-70 instances (haven't had to try healing 70 instances yet). 

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Alkiera
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Reply #39 on: March 01, 2007, 07:26:41 AM

I love my boomkin druid and I pray they don't nerf him.  Last shadow labs run I was on was with people who had never instanced with a balance druid (they are so very rare, EVERY other druid I've met on my side in BC was in feral gear, I've seen like two alli balance druids) and they were all amazed how I could lead in damage.  I could wait 3-4 sunders on some very high hp mobs and still get aggro by the end.  And since all my +dmg gear is also +heal, I've successfully PUG healed all the non-70 instances (haven't had to try healing 70 instances yet). 

This is what I eventually want to do, something like a 34/0/27 build for moonkin and some healing talents, a fair bit of mana regen through spellcasting.

--
Alkiera

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jpark
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Reply #40 on: March 01, 2007, 12:41:32 PM

Right or wrong  - all I have to say is - you guys have not seen anything yet.

When horde paladins start showing up in numbers in pvp - alliance will drive further nerfs to the class.

For solo activities - I find the paladin far superior to the warrior.  But of course that is solo - not a grouping activity with a healer.  I was laughing yesterday when my paladin at level 60 - with shit green non BC gear - fought a level 66 mob to get skill ups (for kicks).  I lasted a long time - unable to kill the beast - I eventually just ran away.  Solo, there is just no way I could do that with a warrior.

Put on the retibution aura - and fight 2-3 even con mobs at the same time.  Man, you cannot do that solo with a warrior.  But a warrior is a specialized grouping character - so I can accept that.  I just cannot get over the power of a paladin.  Right or wrong - I am quite confident we have only seen the beginning of nerfs to this class.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 12:47:48 PM by jpark »

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Polysorbate80
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Reply #41 on: March 01, 2007, 02:23:26 PM

2-3?  I usually go for 5 if I can get them.   It's a slow drain on mana/hp until the first couple die, but then the other three replenish it all and it's time for another batch. 

Or I just have a constant running battle of 3-4, once one dies I drag the fight around until I get an add.

If I weren't using a shitty green axe, I might pull more.

PvP?  I can kill a rogue 5 levels higher than me, but casters even a couple levels below me give me fits.  I'm hoping the 41-point shield toss will help a little bit when I get it, but I won't hold my breath.

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Zetor
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Reply #42 on: March 01, 2007, 10:22:01 PM

Right or wrong  - all I have to say is - you guys have not seen anything yet.

When horde paladins start showing up in numbers in pvp - alliance will drive further nerfs to the class.

For solo activities - I find the paladin far superior to the warrior.  But of course that is solo - not a grouping activity with a healer.  I was laughing yesterday when my paladin at level 60 - with shit green non BC gear - fought a level 66 mob to get skill ups (for kicks).  I lasted a long time - unable to kill the beast - I eventually just ran away.  Solo, there is just no way I could do that with a warrior.

Put on the retibution aura - and fight 2-3 even con mobs at the same time.  Man, you cannot do that solo with a warrior.  But a warrior is a specialized grouping character - so I can accept that.  I just cannot get over the power of a paladin.  Right or wrong - I am quite confident we have only seen the beginning of nerfs to this class.
And then you met a priest / mage / warlock and got completely obliterated. Not to mention that shadowpriests / warlocks / hunters can solo a +6 mob if they want, it just takes a while and the right gear/talents, and they do it a heck of a lot faster and safer than a paladin. :P My warlock can also kill 3-4 mobs at a time faster than a pally, with zero downtime. When my warrior was leveling, I saw a [well-geared, was using a lv53 blue BOE 2-hander at 54] paladin grinding next to me -- in the time I killed two mobs, he still didn't kill one. So I had to bandage once, big deal.

I like fighting paladins. They try so hard to hurt me, then they bubble, and invariably die. And yes, I've fought plenty of paladins as alliance.. a lot of them in the arenas and quite a few BE paladins in the world. 2-paladin teams are nothing compared to, say, two undead frost mages. I'm just not afraid of them, whether I'm on my warlock or warrior. [unless they severely outgear me]


-- Z.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 10:25:37 PM by Zetor »

jpark
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Reply #43 on: March 02, 2007, 04:34:51 AM

[I like fighting paladins. They try so hard to hurt me, then they bubble, and invariably die. And yes, I've fought plenty of paladins as alliance.. a lot of them in the arenas and quite a few BE paladins in the world. 2-paladin teams are nothing compared to, say, two undead frost mages. I'm just not afraid of them, whether I'm on my warlock or warrior. [unless they severely outgear me]


-- Z.

Well that's a different issue - I don't fear Pallys in pvp either - they suck.  Usually because most paladins are trying to do "damage" rather than heal their team mates - which they are ideally suited for in pvp given there is almost no crowd control compared to PVE.   Maybe Horde paladins will be prove to be wiser and more effective players.  Anyway, my point about pally's is about them as a melee class in PVE - ranged combatants I agree are more dangerous.

A paladin that actually heals in pvp is a real threat - but fortunately - nobody seems to play that way  cheesy
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 04:38:36 AM by jpark »

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
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Dren
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Reply #44 on: March 02, 2007, 05:36:55 AM

Looking at the patch notes, it doesn't look like they are putting in the most severe nerfs that testers were warning about.

Warriors got much love.  Pallys and Feral Druids got nerfed pretty harshly.  I expected Feral Druids...still not sure about Pallys outside of PvP I guess.

I agree with what has been said about Pally's.  They are powerful.  If they are played right (as a healer) even more so in a group.  I've never really suggested otherwise.  However, with the pitiful dps things are just very slow and I have a hard time getting interested in playing my Pally again.

That said, I could never get interested at all in a Warrior for the same reasons stated.  Solo play for them just plain bites.

- lots of down time for healing
- equipment slaves
- highest equipment repair bills
- slaves to potions/food/etc. to get as much of an edge as possible.

I do have to hand it to the ones that do well and make it to the highest levels.  They are a boon to their guilds and massively helpful for instance runs.  There certainly is a price to be paid to be the "hero" of a group, which is what they end up being (in my eyes anyway.)
WindupAtheist
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Reply #45 on: March 02, 2007, 06:30:28 AM

They make it painfully clear that they want the paladin to be a healbot and not a hybrid.  Glad I'm a shaman now.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
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Miasma
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Reply #46 on: March 02, 2007, 07:09:20 AM

It seems like you should always play two completely different classes in WoW at the same time so that you can roll with the frustrating pendulum of Nerf - Buff - Nerf - Buff.
Shrike
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Reply #47 on: March 02, 2007, 08:00:41 AM

Don't get too complacent about shamans. Windfury is on the chopping block again. Kiss those sweet offhand windfury proc strings goodbye.

Sure, it's an exploit, sorta/kinda. But with the stealth nerf to windfury cooldowns (3 sec cooldown now), the offhand downgrade was a great workaround. Except now we're not supposed to actually do that sort of damage (like enhance can do anything else? Come on!). I wouldn't have any problem with this if they'd tone down the 3 second cooldown. After this crap goes live, it's going to be hard as hell finding weapons that actually do give you your 20% WF proc rate.

WF is such a clusterfuck right now. Blizz needs to get their heads out and get this thing right. Or at least update the tooltips so you know what is REALLY going on with WF.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #48 on: March 02, 2007, 08:44:12 AM

They can nerf dual-wield all they want, since I've decided to stubbornly stick to two-handers forever.

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Rasix
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Reply #49 on: March 02, 2007, 08:54:10 AM

They can nerf dual-wield all they want, since I've decided to stubbornly stick to two-handers forever.

That's splendid, but some of us enjoy our akimbo style and it works great for generating flurry and unleashed rage.  Dunno really how much a general WF correction like this would affect my overall DPS.  I seemed to do OK even when I wasn't staggering my WF, but if an offhand WF proc is going to trigger a 3 sec global cooldown... might need to experiment with replacing it with something else.

I just really don't want to pay for the goddamn respec.  And I don't really see why this would need nerfing, unless somehow shaman are doing just unreal DPS in a the raid situation (which I no longer have a sense of).  Enhance seems like it's going to be a joke in PVP at 70 (haven't PVP'd since hitting 70, but I don't see how I'm bursty enough to chew through 8-10k+ HP before getting CC'd or beat down).

-Rasix
Merusk
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Reply #50 on: March 02, 2007, 08:59:02 AM

I seemed to do OK even when I wasn't staggering my WF, but if an offhand WF proc is going to trigger a 3 sec global cooldown... might need to experiment with replacing it with something else.

I don't think Shrike meant a global CD, but a "Windfury can only proc once every 3 seconds" type thing.

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Rasix
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Reply #51 on: March 02, 2007, 09:19:04 AM

I seemed to do OK even when I wasn't staggering my WF, but if an offhand WF proc is going to trigger a 3 sec global cooldown... might need to experiment with replacing it with something else.

I don't think Shrike meant a global CD, but a "Windfury can only proc once every 3 seconds" type thing.

That's what I meant also.  My terminology can get muddled at times.

-Rasix
Polysorbate80
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Reply #52 on: March 02, 2007, 09:19:24 AM

I run a shadowpriest, a demonology warlock, and a protection paly.

Priest:  Best single-kill speed, absolute worst at multi-pulls (although if one is mind-controllable, it's usually tolerable).  Some downtime depending on # of mobs in a pull.  Eats paladins for lunch in PvP, and it's amazing how many are stupid enough to attack her.  Gets her shit handed to her by rogues and warriors.

Paladin:  Best at multi-pulls, and pulling enough makes it comparable to other class single-target killing speed.  Painfully slow at single-target.  No downtime, unless I'm tanking without a healer in an instance.  I've managed to kill priests with him, but it's uncommon.  When jumped by a melee during a fight with a mob, usually takes the time to finish the mob and *then* kill the rogue/warrior.

Warlock:  Falls somewhere between.  Good at both single and multiple, but not as good as either of the two others in their respective areas.  No downtime.  This one's on a PvE server, and I never bother to PvP with it.

The warlock is a good balance between the other two characters, but I find myself playing the priest or paladin far more.

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
WindupAtheist
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Reply #53 on: March 02, 2007, 09:51:01 AM


"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Rasix
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Reply #54 on: March 02, 2007, 09:53:44 AM

I just watched that last night.  That picture would have been more relevant if the enhance shammy was one of the random guys sent through a wall or maybe the gay tailor.

-Rasix
Oban
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Reply #55 on: March 02, 2007, 09:54:13 AM

Nerf Teras Kasi.



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WindupAtheist
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Reply #56 on: March 02, 2007, 09:59:40 AM

I just watched that last night.  That picture would have been more relevant if the enhance shammy was one of the random guys sent through a wall or maybe the gay tailor.

Hey, he had his hand held open like there should be a bat in it.  /shrug

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Alkiera
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Reply #57 on: March 02, 2007, 10:03:45 AM

I actually purchased the DVD of that.  Absolutely hilarious.  Insane gangleaders doing showtunes with handaxes ftw.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
MournelitheCalix
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Reply #58 on: March 02, 2007, 10:09:35 AM

That statement by the dev is insane.  I went Ret spec with my Paladin for awhile and couldn't take the subadequate DPS and went back to Prot to help my guild in instances.  Who cares that they get a lucky crit once in awhile.  Like you said, it still doesn't compare to my Rogue for instance.  My Rogue crits consistently.  He's at over 20% crit at the moment and that only rises as I get better gear!

I already have a hard time playing my Paladin solo as it is.  If they are going to moderate their DPS even more, bullocks!

You heard me.

Then your not playing your paladin right.  I leveled mine from 60 to 70 within a span of two weeks.  I might have died maybe 5 times while doing quests made for two or three people.  I am not sure what the devs are referring to about burst damage, but I can tell you this I loaded up on + spell damage/healing gear and just annihilated swaths of mobs with my paladin spells.  So far, the paladin has been by far the easiest class to level to 70. 

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Morat20
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Reply #59 on: March 02, 2007, 10:17:44 AM

I actually purchased the DVD of that.  Absolutely hilarious.  Insane gangleaders doing showtunes with handaxes ftw.

--
Alkiera
My wife's been annoyed -- she misplaced our copy of it, and has been wanting to watch it for a few weeks now. It's a fun film -- we have Shaolin Soccer, which my kid absolutely loves.
Dren
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Reply #60 on: March 05, 2007, 08:56:37 AM

That statement by the dev is insane.  I went Ret spec with my Paladin for awhile and couldn't take the subadequate DPS and went back to Prot to help my guild in instances.  Who cares that they get a lucky crit once in awhile.  Like you said, it still doesn't compare to my Rogue for instance.  My Rogue crits consistently.  He's at over 20% crit at the moment and that only rises as I get better gear!

I already have a hard time playing my Paladin solo as it is.  If they are going to moderate their DPS even more, bullocks!

You heard me.

Then your not playing your paladin right.  I leveled mine from 60 to 70 within a span of two weeks.  I might have died maybe 5 times while doing quests made for two or three people.  I am not sure what the devs are referring to about burst damage, but I can tell you this I loaded up on + spell damage/healing gear and just annihilated swaths of mobs with my paladin spells.  So far, the paladin has been by far the easiest class to level to 70. 

How many classes have you leveled to 70?
Azazel
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Reply #61 on: March 05, 2007, 01:12:02 PM

I might have levelled my paladin higher than 61, if not for the fact that the slow-playing boredom made me literally want to go to sleep...


It was alright when my Pally was my first character I levelled up, since I didn't know any better. Having now levelled a Mage and Rogue, I just can't take the excruciating slowness..


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