Automated Bot'ing: WoWGlider vs Blizzard

[Venkman]

Here's the short form:

WoWGlider is a program you can buy to run WoW bots. Blizzard does not like this. They claim their Warden cannot stop it, so they are suing the makers of WoWGlider to stop this program.

• If Blizzard wins the case, the world goes on as we know it.
• if WoWGlider wins the case though, there's an implication that automated botting is legally acceptable, not covered by EULAs or not enforceable or something of the sort.

I imagine this will take some time to sort out.

Given the legally-tenuous nature of this sort of discussion, I am not providing links to WoWGlider nor any other bot programs. However, I think it's ok to link to the Slashdot article about it, since there's where I read it.

The reason I mention it here, to people who've already likely read the Slashdot or numerous other pieces about it, is to ask what you all think about automated botting in the general sense?

Similar to RMTing, I imagine there's three ways of thinking about it: 1) It's fine as long as the bots don't get in my way/it's in a PvP+ area; 2) it's wrong and kills gameplay for everyone by breaking that magic circle; 3) it's illegal and exploitive and on those grounds alone should be banned by the company.

To me, it's not the right way to play the game and the company has every right to stop it. However, whether it is truly illegal or not is questionable. You can use WoWGlider to play your character 24/7 or you can hire four people to take 6 hour shifts and achieve the same goal. What, really, is the difference besides cost?

[Xilren's Twin]

What the practical difference between a bot and an anti-social, kill stealing retard gamer?

And why does this topic seem to have parallels to the US' illegal drug policy/war on drugs?

[CmdrSlack]

It makes sense for Blizzard to file this suit.  If it turns out that WoWGlider does have a negative effect on the game, it's good to try to stop them now as opposed to later (when there may be certain defenses against their action based on their prior inaction).  If it's prohibited by the EULA, it makes sense to actually enforce the EULA.  Hell, you could argue that keeping an account logged on 24/7 is beyond the scope of the service agreement, I guess.  Or at least, that doing it via a bot is different than doing it manually.  There was an anti-spam case where (IIRC) Compuserve basically said that spammers had committed a tort against their servers (trespass to chattels, I think).  There could very easily be a similar argument here, although I would imagine the EULA is a more direct route.

To sum up, game company wants to prevent people it perceives as cheaters from cheating.  Film at eleven.

[HaemishM]

Good for Blizzard.

[garthilk]

Should be interesting to see how it works out.  But like illegal music downloading, probably isn't going to stop much.

[lamaros]

Just bite the fucking bullet and let me make/buy a max level character already. Most people, I assume, bot because Diku levels are retarded and they dont want to grind.

[Simond]

Blizzard has precedent for EULA on their side, plus big scary corporate lawyers.
WoWGlider guy has whatever cash he managed to get from a forum full of cheats.

Blizzard will bleed this bloke dry, then snap him in half.

[Krakrok]

WOWGlider is a tool similar to Gameshark, a mod chip, BitTorrent, YouTube, DeCSS, or a crowbar. The people making the tool aren't actually using it (though I assume they had to use it in order for them to create it).

That being said Blizzard will claim it's a DMCA copyright protection hack and therefore illegal plus whatever else they can pull out of their asses. Blizzard has a history of winning their lawsuits like this one so WOWGlider is fucked.

[Jayce]

 What's at stake is not whether botting programs are illegal - a patently ridiculous assertation IMO - but rather, does a company have the right to say what goes on in their own sandbox?

Saying botting programs are illegal is the same thing as saying that a homeowner can't allow cheating or handicaps or something like that during a poker game in his basement.

However, saying that a homeowner has no right to enforce any rules he sees fit to impose on his cardplaying buddies (by ejecting them from the house, for example) is another thing.

I think they are on pretty solid DMCA ground though.  There is no significant legitimate usage for WoWGlider like, for example, there is for a crowbar.  The question is whether Blizzard's ability to regulate what happens in their sandbox extends to a program expressly written to work with (against?) their software.

[Merusk]

What the practical difference between a bot and an anti-social, kill stealing retard gamer?

And why does this topic seem to have parallels to the US' illegal drug policy/war on drugs?

It doesn't   You can make a weak, albeit legitimate, argument that drug use affects only the user.  Bot use affects all users of the game.

Just bite the fucking bullet and let me make/buy a max level character already. Most people, I assume, bot because Diku levels are retarded and they dont want to grind.

Most of the bot users aren't grinding xp as much as they are farming cash/ quest mobs.  If it WERE just xp, then the argument that they're only screwing themselves out of the level/ quesitng experience is somewhat valid.  That's not the case as soon as you have 3-5 bots keeping an area clear of all monsters so legitimate users are getting hosed.

[Simond]

Blizzard will turn up with their EULA and a stack of WoW's account cancellation questionaires with "Botters ruined my gameplay" given as the reason for quitting; and the WoWGlider bloke (who, don't forget, sold his program to its users) will lose his shirt, his house, and the soul of his firstborn.

[Krakrok]

There is no significant legitimate usage for WoWGlider like, for example, there is for a crowbar.

I could argue that machinima could be a legitimate usage for it. Theoretically you could use WoWGlider to record a movie on an EMU server (which would be a second third party tool Blizzard would be suing if it had a public face).

The question is whether Blizzard's ability to regulate what happens in their sandbox extends to a program expressly written to work with (against?) their software.

I think what the application does is insignificant. It could be as simple as making WoW run in a window (which it probably already does but for example EQ didn't originally) or stretching the application across three screens or translating joystick commands into WoW. The question is can Blizzard stop a third party from making a compatible tool. Time and time again courts have found that Blizzard can do that.

In the broader technological arena, courts have found that you CAN make compatible printer cartridges and garage door openers regardless of what fake chips the company puts in to claim a DMCA violation.

[Rasix]

Just bite the fucking bullet and let me make/buy a max level character already. Most people, I assume, bot because Diku levels are retarded and they dont want to grind.

Yes, please.  I'm only not botting my druid because I don't want to be banned.  If Blizzard said this was OK, I'd bot him to 60 in a heartbeat.  I want to do outland with him, not comparitively boring and uninspiring (and not to mention poorly itemized for casuals) old world content for the umpteenth time.

[Calantus]

What the practical difference between a bot and an anti-social, kill stealing retard gamer?

The difference is that you have to expect and accept that people will get in your way and/or annoy you in an MMO. A bot is very different in that it doesn't have to sleep/eat/etc and you can't commmunicate with it. Even a kill stealing asshole is a person interacting with you, albeit in a negative way. A bot is just an unsanctioned NPC that gets in your way.

[angry.bob]

All the irrelevant MMO baggage aside, how is Glider different than say Getright which can be used as a helper app with a web browser to download an entire website for offline viewing or resumable downloads of large files? Or any one of the nine billion apps that work in conjunction with MS Office products to do stupid things that Outlook or Excel should already do as simply as using the Sort by: tabs, but MS still refuses to include after a decade? Or even a pop-up blocker, ad blockers, or using a home file to websurf without dealing with ads? In many cases you're violating terms of use by viewing a website and preventing it from serving you it's advertising - and unlike the dubious claim that botters are costing Blizzard XXX dollars, not viewing a website's ads while using it's resources absolutely costs them real money and denies them their revenue stream. How is that any different than using Glider, except that it actually does cost the person money?

As much as we all dislike botting, you should be rooting for the Glider guy to win if you don't want to keep using software produced by gigantic development houses and only in the way they want you to use them. I like the idea that no matter how big a software package can be, independent developers can make them more user friendly if the original developer can't or won't.

[schild]

Glider NEEDS to win this.

[rk47]

if u don't like to grind. don't fucking play it.
It's as simple as that, instead they wanted to bot and undercut legit players selling prices without so much of a sweat and claims they're 'helping' the server. bullshit.

[angry.bob]

if u don't like to grind. don't fucking play it.
It's as simple as that, instead they wanted to bot and undercut legit players selling prices without so much of a sweat and claims they're 'helping' the server. bullshit.

That has nothing to do with the discussion. It's about the scope, authority, and enforceability of EULA's and DMC, as well as the legitimacy and legality of separate, 3rd party software that's designed to work in conjunction with another software package - but without the permission of the original developer.

But thank you for bringing it down to the "BC MAED ALL MY TIEM AND TIER# STUFF WORTHLESS> STUPID CAUSALS AND THERE QQING BROKE WOW" level.

[CmdrSlack]

edit, nm context, I guess.  I still think it's a bad test case and not ZOMG must win!

[rk47]

if u don't like to grind. don't fucking play it.
It's as simple as that, instead they wanted to bot and undercut legit players selling prices without so much of a sweat and claims they're 'helping' the server. bullshit.

That has nothing to do with the discussion. It's about the scope, authority, and enforceability of EULA's and DMC, as well as the legitimacy and legality of separate, 3rd party software that's designed to work in conjunction with another software package - but without the permission of the original developer.

But thank you for bringing it down to the "BC MAED ALL MY TIEM AND TIER# STUFF WORTHLESS> STUPID CAUSALS AND THERE QQING BROKE WOW" level.

Nope

[CmdrSlack]

Bob, normally, I tend to agree with you.  At the same time, if you think that Blizzard winning this case is the ultimate victory in some epic battle against abusive EULAs, then I think you're either overstating for effect or utterly mistaken.  EULAs are abusive because of plenty of existing precedents and the utter fuckedness of our copyright laws.  This case going in Blizzard's favor will only add to an already impressive array of cases that strenghthen the EULA in general.  However, since EULAs are essentially contracts at the end of the day, courts still treat them on a case-by-case basis.  This means that one EULA is not every EULA.

Hence, it's not a ZOMG must win kind of thing.

[angry.bob]

This case going in Blizzard's favor will only add to an already impressive array of cases that strenghthen the EULA in general.  However, since EULAs are essentially contracts at the end of the day, courts still treat them on a case-by-case basis.  This means that one EULA is not every EULA.

Hence, it's not a ZOMG must win kind of thing.

Right, for me it's more a case of not wanting another EULA/DMC victory. I realize EULAs aren't universally enforceable any more than say, a tenant lease. As clearly defined as tenant rights are in each state, individual landlords get away with murder due to ignorance on the part of themselves and their tenants, or just plain breaking the law and counting on their tenants not knowing any better. I see EULAs and DMC being abused in pretty much the same way, and this case could be used as a building block in a lot of other circumstances that have nothing to do with Botting and MMO's. I'm not a lawyer, but the foundations this would go into help building is one I'd just as soon not have another brick in. When I asked what the difference is between this and the other stuff, I was seriously asking. To my unlawyery eyes, a ruling for Blizzard in this case would apply directly to any of those and open the way to say... Gator suing Adaware and Spybot for removing their advertising that was legally installed as a condition with freeware that a user was using. Same with about a billlion webmasters suing makers of pop-up and ad blockers - myself included in the webmasters. If I think it will work I will sue every company making anti-ad software just to try and drive some of them out of business with the idea that less anti-ad software available means I'll be able to serve more ads.

I don't think it's ZOMGworthy, but at the very least I think it would be unhealthy and opening up some doors that should stay shut.

[Trippy]

All the irrelevant MMO baggage aside, how is Glider different than say Getright which can be used as a helper app with a web browser to download an entire website for offline viewing or resumable downloads of large files? Or any one of the nine billion apps that work in conjunction with MS Office products to do stupid things that Outlook or Excel should already do as simply as using the Sort by: tabs, but MS still refuses to include after a decade? Or even a pop-up blocker, ad blockers, or using a home file to websurf without dealing with ads? In many cases you're violating terms of use by viewing a website and preventing it from serving you it's advertising - and unlike the dubious claim that botters are costing Blizzard XXX dollars, not viewing a website's ads while using it's resources absolutely costs them real money and denies them their revenue stream. How is that any different than using Glider, except that it actually does cost the person money?

The difference is those are all done through published APIs or protocols and/or the EULAs don't expressly forbid reverse engineering. Or if they are not the publishers could go after the developers just like Vivendi did in the bnetd case. In that case the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with Vivendi's position that bnetd violated the EULA (which they agreed was valid) and the DMCA. However the 8th Circuit is apparently reverse engineering "unfriendly" unlike the 9th Circuit which is where Blizzard is located so Vivendi intentionally moved the case outside of the 9th so they could avoid that Court.

Edit: is is

[CmdrSlack]

This case going in Blizzard's favor will only add to an already impressive array of cases that strenghthen the EULA in general.  However, since EULAs are essentially contracts at the end of the day, courts still treat them on a case-by-case basis.  This means that one EULA is not every EULA.

Hence, it's not a ZOMG must win kind of thing.

Right, for me it's more a case of not wanting another EULA/DMC victory. I realize EULAs aren't universally enforceable any more than say, a tenant lease. As clearly defined as tenant rights are in each state, individual landlords get away with murder due to ignorance on the part of themselves and their tenants, or just plain breaking the law and counting on their tenants not knowing any better. I see EULAs and DMC being abused in pretty much the same way, and this case could be used as a building block in a lot of other circumstances that have nothing to do with Botting and MMO's. I'm not a lawyer, but the foundations this would go into help building is one I'd just as soon not have another brick in. When I asked what the difference is between this and the other stuff, I was seriously asking. To my unlawyery eyes, a ruling for Blizzard in this case would apply directly to any of those and open the way to say... Gator suing Adaware and Spybot for removing their advertising that was legally installed as a condition with freeware that a user was using. Same with about a billlion webmasters suing makers of pop-up and ad blockers - myself included in the webmasters. If I think it will work I will sue every company making anti-ad software just to try and drive some of them out of business with the idea that less anti-ad software available means I'll be able to serve more ads.

I don't think it's ZOMGworthy, but at the very least I think it would be unhealthy and opening up some doors that should stay shut.

Actually, it's a subject that I plan to work up a law journal article about during the month of March, largely because I think it's timely.  One big issue is that even though most of these cases end up in Federal court, that's because there's diversity of the parties, not generally a federal question.  What sucks about EULAs is that since they're largely governed by state laws, you get a widely divergent body of cases that depend entirely upon the laws of the states in which the cases are tried or the laws of the states indicated in the EULA "choice of law" clause. 

ETA -- Basically, since contracts can trump things like the DMCA (which is what the bnetd case is partially about), it's not really a federal issue, but a fucked up polyglot issue of federal and state laws with slackjawed yokel judges adding their own spins depending on their understanding of technology.  The list of stupid court cases goes on so long it's ridiculous.  Want to know why we have EULAs?  It's partially because of a case (full name escapes me, but it's Peak v. someone) that basically says that loading an OS or other software into RAM is a copy with sufficient permanent fixation to be a copy within the definition in the Copyright Act.  So, we need the licenses or else we'd all be committing massive copyright infringement simply by using our computers.

Trippy has some good reasons above this post for why this won't be a major brick in the wall, but quite honestly, I think most action regarding EULAs will come from the financial services industry.  The simple version -- major data breach, fin. serv. corp is held liable in a class action, that corp then goes after its software vendor.  Somewhere along the line, I think we'll see EULAs start to crumble.  But that's a whole issue that gets into how software is made, etc.

Personally, I think that there's a lot to reform in the world of EULAs and the DMCA, but it's a whole longass post that I don't have the time to write right now.  In March, though.....oh yes.

[cosapi]

I was always under the impression WoWs design would encourage botting.

This is probably because I've usually felt the next step in diku evolution would involve more of the game doing the work parts for you.

[squirrel]

Blizzard has precedent for EULA on their side, plus big scary corporate lawyers.
WoWGlider guy has whatever cash he managed to get from a forum full of cheats.

Blizzard will bleed this bloke dry, then snap him in half.

Yup. Irrespective of actual legality, if Blizzard wants to stop you in a corporate civil law case they'll simply crush you with their wallet. You could be totally within your legal rights (which WoWGlider isn't according to both EULA and DCMA) but that doesn't matter when legal representation is costing $3500 USD a day and Blizzard is snowing you with affadavits and writs.

[Mandrel]

Blizzard has precedent for EULA on their side, plus big scary corporate lawyers.
WoWGlider guy has whatever cash he managed to get from a forum full of cheats.

Blizzard will bleed this bloke dry, then snap him in half.

Yup. Irrespective of actual legality, if Blizzard wants to stop you in a corporate civil law case they'll simply crush you with their wallet. You could be totally within your legal rights (which WoWGlider isn't according to both EULA and DCMA) but that doesn't matter when legal representation is costing $3500 USD a day and Blizzard is snowing you with affadavits and writs.

And it's worth it for them to do so, as it scares other people off from attempting the same kind of thing, and cuts down on the customer service hours they pay people to investigate botters.

[Hoax]

Seriously I've done a 180 on botting in the last month.  I used to just lump it with all other forms of cheating and therefore assume it was lame as fuck.  However, I've come to realize that the only people crying about it are craftards and carebears, I am neither therefore I dont give a fuck about any of the so-called "issues" surrounding botting.

Also I am thinking of coming back to WoW and will definitely bot my way through much of the boring mid-level grind, prob from 2X to 60 for the most part.  I just want to take part in some of this arena action and small group instance stuff I've been watching over friend's shoulders recently doing the fedex quest dance for a month is not my cup of tea.

I wasn't really planning on using glider anyways though since you're very limited in what you can program the bot to do, there are better options out there for people willing to actually get their hand's dirty setting up the bot itself.

[Hound]

I can't see where it is any different than buying a pre built toon myself. Of course as long as my neighbors do not put junk cars up on blocks in the driveway or decide to raise goats in the backyard I could give a damn what they do either. I play these games for the social aspect so botting would ruin it for me.

[Fabricated]

Since there's no real doubt that WoWGlider is gonna lose this case (leaving botting mostly to goldsellers with the talent to write/share their own programs) so I don't particularly care. Yeah, 30-50 drags ass after you've done it 3 times, but you either had fun those first couple times or you're just punishing yourself because you're an addicted retard. If you don't have guildies or friends to twink you to 60 then well, sucks to be you.

[Strazos]

Sorry, I pick options 2 and 3 from the OP. Fuck cheaters, and fuck these WoWGlider kids.

Though honestly, trying to read their forums for about 5 minutes was sort of amusing. The amount of angst and crying on the internets was palpable.

[Calantus]

Seriously I've done a 180 on botting in the last month.  I used to just lump it with all other forms of cheating and therefore assume it was lame as fuck.  However, I've come to realize that the only people crying about it are craftards and carebears, I am neither therefore I dont give a fuck about any of the so-called "issues" surrounding botting.

Also I am thinking of coming back to WoW and will definitely bot my way through much of the boring mid-level grind, prob from 2X to 60 for the most part.  I just want to take part in some of this arena action and small group instance stuff I've been watching over friend's shoulders recently doing the fedex quest dance for a month is not my cup of tea.

I wasn't really planning on using glider anyways though since you're very limited in what you can program the bot to do, there are better options out there for people willing to actually get their hand's dirty setting up the bot itself.

I've never had a problem with botting up levels. My last guild had 5-6 people who botted up to 60 and I knew it but didn't care. What I don't like is when people use them to farm up resources at level 60 because that does affect me if enough do it. WoW doesn't have a botting "problem" I don't think because it's not very widespread, but if it was allowed I have a feeling the game would get very unfun whenever you needed to go farm. The economy would also be totally shot because every time you need to restock potions after a week of raiding you'd have to compete with the money botters can pull in.

I've never played Lineage 2 but everyone I know who's played it said they couldn't stand the mass bots and farmers and that it ruined the game for them. That's what I don't want to see in an MMOG I play.

[Modern Angel]

Another problem is that the endgame of WoW is extremely consumable heavy. Setting aside whether you enjoy raiding or not when you put the entire "point" of playing at the mercy of gold farming bots you have a very bad situation.

[Ixxit]

Obviously WoWglider will get crushed,  but how fundamentally different is it from some of the some of the hundreds of allowable interface mods that could be said, depending in the situation automate game processes and could be argued give an unfair advantage to the user?

The obvious reply is that the bot is an external program, but the interesting thing is, does it run by firing macros and  timers  already allowable by the game (which ui mods take advantage of),  or does it simulate key strokes that only be done by a user pressing keys on the keyboard.  If it is the former then I guess the maker of WoWglider could argue in theory that it is a variant of some of the allowable UI mods.

[robusticus]

The WoWglider guy is an old friend of mine.  We go way back to the MUD days.  A very gifted programmer, to be sure.  Though his Street Fighter 2 skills were always somewhat lacking (My Guile > His Blanka).  :P

Haven't talked to him in years, but from what I understand from what people have told me (we share a family connection now), he's pretty sick of this whole deal and would rather just wash his hands of it.  But he won't because of the popularity of the software.

Personally, I think the boilerplate MMO EULA is crap.  Someone mentioned if you don't like it don't play.  Well, I myself always read the EULA thoroughly these days before I start a game, I refuse to break it.  Was tempted to play Eve, but they have the same EULA.  To me that's a really sad state of affairs when a gamer has to read a 7 page legal document to decide if they want to play a game, to make sure they won't inadvertently cheat somehow.  To me, you don't want bots in your game, make a game that can't be botted.  Otherwise STFU QQ more, nub game publishers.