Daeven's PVP comment and thoughts....

[Fargull]

From the bloody WOW thread...

Actually alliance v Hoarde would be a lot of fun, as long as there was a reasonable expectation that characters are of relevantly equal stature in terms of power, instead of artificially segregated by extreme power differentials induced by the 'necessary grinding mechanic' that some people find entertaining.

And since the latter is essentially guaranteed I see no reason to waste my time or cash on something I know that *I* will find annoying as hell.

*shrug*

Here is a thought.. strange as it might be... take DAOC's port-o-combat idea with a seperate area for battle and add in the feature that if your going to PvP, GvG, RvR, or with WOW AvH, you will take this port-o-matic jump into a toon of your race at median level (say 30th for WOW's level sake) and no extras... If your 50th, you get dumped to a 30th toon.  If your 60th, you get dumped to a 30th toon.  If your less than 30th, no play for you till you hit that level.

Your toon would arrive in standard gear for your class (on par with that level, but no better than average for a 30th).

You then fight over the "land in controversy" for strategic places, resources, relics of da'Power, ect... Bridges would need to be built, or rivers forded, keeps need to be built, ect...  The affects of the "land of controversy" would effect the rest of the game world outside for the various winning factions...  They could add realm points or some other odd feature that only affects your ability outside the area of contention.

Thoughts?

[Djamonja]

My thoughts... I think in an MRPG, players like to use their character/s that they have developed/equipped for PvP (and PvE). IMO, most players would not like to have to PvP using a generic character/template that bore little to no relation to their "real" character.

[schmoo]

Make it a game within a game, make up some game lore, like your character is actually possessing an NPC in another dimension/universe, add in a more or less believable reason for doing it and some shiny for rewards and you might be able to sell it to paying customers.

[sergex]

Your game sounds like a port of Warcraft 1,2,3 into a first person perspective where you only control one character at a time.  You want an even playing field where everyone starts off on equal footing.  It would probably be best to make certain zones skill restricted, similar to the Battle.net ladder system so similarly skilled players would be playing each other.

If in WoW, they make arenas a level playing field, where each character comes in naked and gets similar temporary equipment to use just for that battle, it would make it much more a test of skill than a test of "grinding time".    Pit level 50s against level 50s.  Have waiting queues so you can only start a match when an equal level player enters the queue.  I think it works much better as a mini game than to create a whole shadowbane-esque system outside of the game.  WoW wants to focus on questing and ubermob raids, not resource control PvP, but there's a lot of room for challenging PvP with their arena system I hope.

[Mesozoic]

PvP is supposed to be about using your character against other characters, not a standard template.  You've recommended a fantasy Quake minigame, not real PvP.

[Fargull]

sergex,

I understand what your saying, but am thinking more of a game with in a game.  RvR in DAOC is with your character and has impact outside your of the RvR sphere for your character, but does not function the same as the PvE side of the game.  However, your toon is still your toon and no real negative impact is brought to your toon by your actions (outside of lost time) in joining the RvR aspect.  My thoughts above are just to remove all the level grind aspects from the competition.  Mesozoic had it right when it is more of a Quake mini-game, but I would add with real impact on the PvE aspects of the game.

Just wondering if this might make a more strategic game.  Since it is not your character / toon in the battle feild, I am wondering if more players would participate.

The basic idea is that most "themed fantasy" novel with the antagonists at the heart do not generally participate in the larger "wars" of the conflict, but questing and hunting in the periphery.

Just a little mind game really, but I can see a lot of fun in the idea.

[sergex]

I always thought it would be cool to have a game like that take place in an astral plane or just an altered plane where you advance your character seperate from the main existance.  You can have your quake mini-game in that altered plane, with whatever rules you wanted.

[Daeven]

To be honest, my above quote was a request for advancement via specialization and differentiation as opposed to exponential differentiation via 'time in game'.

I think the biggest problem for PvP in this genre is that, for the most part with standard logarathmic advancement schemas, time in game trumps player skill.

And until this is somehow addressed, 'meaningful PvP' is simply not possible (as opposed to higher level players ganking 'newbz' which any rational person would decry as counter-productive to a fun experience for the majority).

[Fargull]

And until this is somehow addressed, 'meaningful PvP' is simply not possible (as opposed to higher level players ganking 'newbz' which any rational person would decry as counter-productive to a fun experience for the majority).

Yeah!  I know.  Just trying to think outside the box on the issue.  I am more gearing it as a seperate game within a game that influences the PvE aspect.  The only other way to keep it stable would be to have some median level for the core character stats that everyone can achieve with limited time and the rest of the character is built up by peripheral skills and abilities.  My thoughts above reflect more a desire to have the PvP aspect geared toward Armies and such that in general I see as periphery in the fiction I read and not the forefront of the main charactes.

Just thoughts.

[sergex]

Do you think people would play a MMORPG in which the more time you invest does not equate to stronger powers for your character?  If the only things you gained for your character were new costumes, titles, social contacts and other fluff?  The whole basis of RPGs is to advance your character until you can kill the "boss".  If you remove the levels and the stats and the gear do you still have a MMORPG?  

PvP in essence will always be people with more time invested vs. people with less time invested unless a ladder system like battle.net is invented for the genre as I posted above.  Like, all PvP battles take place in alternate planes and only the very strong and wise (high level) can access them.  Once you get too powerful for that plane you move on to the next.

This idea is similar to that game Shattered Galaxy by Nexon that I played a few years ago.  It's a persistant, massive RTS where multiplayer battles take place in regions across a planet and you get Exp and new Units the more you play.  Once you get too high for a planet, you get booted up to the next level planet, and so on until you max out on the highest level planet.  It seemed to work except for that fact that there weren't enough higher levels to compete across an entire planet so people "smurfed" and rolled up new low level chars because of the lack of high end competition.

[schmoo]

Going with the mini-game idea, you make it so that PVPdood's actions result in advancement for RPGguy, and not PVPdood. Thus you are advancing your dynamic main character and participating in PvP with a static secondary character in the same game.  The trick is to create a believable backstory and make it fun to play.

[personman]

Do you think people would play a MMORPG in which the more time you invest does not equate to stronger powers for your character?

Sigh.  MOG producers really have done a number on the current generation.

[daveNYC]

Do you think people would play a MMORPG in which the more time you invest does not equate to stronger powers for your character?  If the only things you gained for your character were new costumes, titles, social contacts and other fluff?  The whole basis of RPGs is to advance your character until you can kill the "boss".  If you remove the levels and the stats and the gear do you still have a MMORPG?

Yep, because right now what we have isn't an RPG.  We've got advancement mechanisms that are designed to maximize subscription length, while minimizing the amount of endgame content that needs to exist at any given time.

The point of a PnP game isn't to advance the character, that just comes naturally as you play.  The problem is that MMORPGS can't provide enough fun along the way, but that doesn't matter, because enough people seem to be happy watching numbers increment.

[Daeven]

Do you think people would play a MMORPG in which the more time you invest does not equate to stronger powers for your character?

Yes. I've seen it in Pen and Paper. Why would it not translate?

If the only things you gained for your character were new costumes, titles, social contacts and other fluff?

Why should it be limited to such 'fluff'? How about more territory? Larger estates? More troops? Bigger starships? I seem to remember people collecting bajillions of widgets in UO to prove their stature. Why is this any different?

The whole basis of RPGs is to advance your character until you can kill the "boss".

It is? Since when? Or are you referring to Roll playing games in some way? Seriously though. Most computer RPG's are bastardized implementations of pen and paper, simply because computers model number crunching pretty well. As a result the focus in cRPG's has been on the number mechanics for a very long time - while generally missing the point of role playing (There are some very noticeable exceptions, the Fallouts, Planescape: Torment to name a couple).

If you remove the levels and the stats and the gear do you still have a MMORPG?

I don't know. And I really don't give a fuck. I DO know that one day someone will realize trileniar bump-mapped bondage elfs with real Multi-Vector Bounce Action Physics&CR does not necessarily translate to a better game.

Then again, maybe not.  But then again, there are a shitton of EQ But Betters&TM in the pipes, and nothing like what I want. So it could not really matter what I say. I do know that the only way I can express my dissatisfaction with the genre is not give them any cash.

I guess my fundamental point is that there should be significantly more to these games for their out of pocket cost than what is currently provided.  My ROI on fun for cost is very low, when the accepted prevalent mechanism is to 'stretch out' the game so that it takes longer to get to 'end game' (whatever the hell that is. I don't even understand the concept in a genre with game lifespan of 5+ years. But anyhow).

If you are currently having fun then ignore the raving lunatic in the corner. When you get tired of the current implementation paths of these apps let me know. I’ll be happy to talk.

But to recapitulate your final point, a MMOG is whatever we make it. The only reason to stick to the same tried and true mechanic is, well, it’s safe.
And I’m not interested in $49.99 + $14.95/month for ‘safe’. You?

[Der Helm]

Going with the mini-game idea, you make it so that PVPdood's actions result in advancement for RPGguy, and not PVPdood. Thus you are advancing your dynamic main character and participating in PvP with a static secondary character in the same game.  The trick is to create a believable backstory and make it fun to play.

I think it is time for the Planetside reference.

This could (IMHO) work very well.

Just make it like a short cut scene ("your character packs his gear, puts on his uniform and goes to war blah blah blah ...")

Let them fight for benefits in the "real" word (acces to resources, realm points, several possibilities where mentioned above), with  their character. Let them gain Rank, which would give them more possibilities in PVP. This would result in PvP giving da direct benefit to somebody actually fighting, while affecting the "real" world outside without forcing the so called "carebears" into it.

Just my 0.02 €, and hey, First post :D

[kidder]

There are so many possibilities to make PVP work in WoW.  Just taking a page from Warcraft 3's Battlenet ranking system would work.

Take a level 15 Warrior.
So...you want to fight one vs one.  Go talk to the arena rep.  Your character starts out as a Rank 1 Warrior of the 15th level.  The "game" looks for another interested player wanting to fight one vs one, that matches your rank/class/level.  So, it finds a Rank 2 Warrior of the 14th level and puts you together with a countdown to combat.

***You zone into the arena 10, 9, 8,...3,2,1...FIGHT.  You and your opponent go at it.  After a hard fought battle you deal the killing blow and emerge victorious.  You gain some rank points, like experience points in PvE, then eventually level up to Rank 2, then 3, then 4 and etc.  Perhaps Rank resets every 10 PvE levels.  So when your Warrior hits 20, he drops back to a Rank 1 in the 20 - 29 level range, and must work  his way back up.

You could also form teams and WoW could keep your ranking as a team.  You could join different kinds of combat with mixed classes and etc.  WoW keeps the ranks and pairs people of like ranking and level.  This would help assure that combat is competitive and it might just be fun.

There are dozens of different ways to do it.  Tournament brackets.  Open Tournaments where rank/class/level dont matter.  Ladder rankings could reset every 30 RL days.  A Hall of Fame could be kept so the overall leader could be kept track of.

All of this PvP could be done without disturbing the PvE lands or high level raids.

And, that is just the "arena" idea.  There could be PvP zones...borrow a page from UT 2004 and have "assault" type contests...although a bit less frenzied.  Etc.  Dozens of possibilities.

PvP in games doesn't have to suck, and when if finally doesn't, it doesn't have to mean that the PvE game suffers.

Perhaps it is too late in development to add things like this, or perhaps they are already being worked on.

[HaemishM]

The purpose of role-playing games (you know, ACTUAL role-playing games) is not incremental advancement, it's playing a fucking role in a story. The fact that CRPG's and especially MMOG's have focused on the numbers first (and only) is strangling the genre of both CRPG's and MMOG's.

PVP with time-based advancement mechanisms creates a helluva lot more imbalances than anything else. I agree with Daeven, you can't have meaningful PVP with time-based advancement as the defining factor in who wins.

But since it appears most MMOG players are complete pussies who are afraid of pitting player skill against player skill, we'll continue to get hopelessly boring, derivative shit.

[Daeven]

PVP with time-based advancement mechanisms creates a helluva lot more imbalances than anything else. I agree with Daeven, you can't have meaningful PVP with time-based advancement as the defining factor in who wins.

Actually, I'll one up you on this. It is my contention that you can't have meaningful gamplay of any sort while tied to the de facto time-based advancement requirement. It is simply far easier to observe this problem when players are in direct competition.

Sloth made a point in the other thread that he though WoW sounds good to him and that he'll play fo 3 months or so. After which he will quit. IMO that is the single most eloquent condemnation and illustration of the fundamental failings of the genre I've heard yet.

[Dren]

The idea of porting combatents into an instanced (or something like instanced) area for even par fighting was first described to me as one of the proposed Virtues (can't remember which  one) system in UO.  This never made it into the game, but was something I really looked forward to.

I read that they are trying to continue its legacy into UOX by being able to challenge other players that put their "I want to fight" flags up.  You could search for the type of character you want to duel, put some treasures up as a bet on the outcome and then instantly be transported to them to fight.  Cooperation from those outside the fight would be controlled by the game so it was truly a one on one (I believe that is what it is limited to, which is a shortcome since group PvP is nice too.)

I presented this type of thinking to several people saying it was a good way to allow people to do some REAL PvP that didn't have anything to do with number of friends, getting the jump on them (PK style,) or how long they've been catssing for levels or uber items.

The responses I got basically led me to believe people that want PvP want to be able to gank and take items. (I think this was said in another thread and I somewhat believe it.)  I was taken aback and was amazed at this atittude.  It does seem to many that UO had it right early on, but UO style gankage will never be back.  The sheep have taken their wool (and wool related products) and gone home (EQ/Trammel/FFXI/etc.)

I, for one, would love to see an arena or duel type PvP developed and done really well.  The game mechanics would need to be solid and the exploits kept to a minimum (seem they can never be vanquished.)  However, I do believe that type of system could keep the PvE and PvP crowd happy in the same MMOG.  Well, as happy as people ever get in an MMOG and excluding the gankers.

[El Gallo]

Do you think people would play a MMORPG in which the more time you invest does not equate to stronger powers for your character?

Yes. I've seen it in Pen and Paper. Why would it not translate?

It would translate fine.  If your mmog had the same ratio of game masters to players as your pen and paper sessions did.

Even then, I have trouble imagining even the most givted DM's of all time coming up with 12,000 worth of compelling and fresh content for the same group of perma-level 1 characters.

[Daeven]

You are mixing 'story telling' with game mechainics El Gallo. The two are in no way related.

The question was would people play MMOG's in which time invested did not translate to power gained. My response was that it works in pen and paper. I've further illustrated that in this thread by pointing out that there are many different types of MUD's to base gameplay mechanics. This is the same point reillustrated.

So while I agree that the problems of an individualized story al la the GM player interaction of pen and paper is downright impossible to model in the MMMOG space, that has NOTHING to do with underlying game mechanics. Threfore your conclusions drawn from your analogy do not address the thesis of the debate.

[Dren]

I have to agree that pen and paper games rely more heavily on story telling, which cannot be simulated in a computer game, but I do not believe they rely solely on it.

I have a hard time believing somebody would sit down in a pen and paper group and the first thing the lead (GM) would say is "None of your characters are going to get anything from this.  No loot, no experience, no levels, no new powers, etc.  Ok, let's start!"

Would you play that game if all you were going to do was play a part in the story and not have it affect your alter self at all?  Be it levels, experience points, gold pieces, uber items, whatever.  Each one of these raises the status of you avatar and I consider them to be "levels."  It is what distinguishes you from others outside of your own intellect or actual gameplay (which again are difficult to simulate in computer games....or at least MMOGs.)

While there is more emphasis on story telling in pen and paper, there is also leveling going on too and it is an important part of the "game."

[El Gallo]

The question was would people play MMOG's in which time invested did not translate to power gained. My response was that it works in pen and paper.

And my response was that this only even conceivably works in pen and paper because of storytelling, which you cannot do cost effectively in a MMOG.  In pen and paper, the "game mechanics" are just an excuse to tell a story, so they are hardly unrelated.

Give me your idea of a game with thousands of people participating where somoene can play for 12,000 hours in the same persistant world where there is no advancement at all and there is no significant story telling at all.

[WayAbvPar]

Leveling in PnP is a byproduct of the interacting with the world and the storyline. Leveling in a MMOG IS the storyline, and the primary focus most of the time.

Part of the fun in PnP is not just shinys and XPs (although that is part of it)- it is a sense of your character in the world; fame, fortune, and noteriety that come from performing heroic (or anti-heroic) deeds. Titles, death sentences, etc- your character is a living record of his previous accomplishments and actions.

MMOGs need to find ways to validate characters beyond sheer numbers. Things like the UO Fame/Karma system (where titles were granted) are a good starting point. Ideally there would be an in-game mechanism for other players to know about your individual achievements (once they are significant enough) other than the ever-increasing # next to your level. Think of it as a merit badge or some sort- a "I survived Lower Guk, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" entry on your character sheet that is viewable by others.

[Dren]

Leveling in PnP is a byproduct of the interacting with the world and the storyline. Leveling in a MMOG IS the storyline, and the primary focus most of the time.

Part of the fun in PnP is not just shinys and XPs (although that is part of it)- it is a sense of your character in the world; fame, fortune, and noteriety that come from performing heroic (or anti-heroic) deeds. Titles, death sentences, etc- your character is a living record of his previous accomplishments and actions.

MMOGs need to find ways to validate characters beyond sheer numbers. Things like the UO Fame/Karma system (where titles were granted) are a good starting point. Ideally there would be an in-game mechanism for other players to know about your individual achievements (once they are significant enough) other than the ever-increasing # next to your level. Think of it as a merit badge or some sort- a "I survived Lower Guk, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" entry on your character sheet that is viewable by others.

Actually, FFXI besides many typical shortfallings of MMOGs does have several of these features and they are nice.  Their quest and mission (two separate systems) systems make heavy use of cutscenes putting your character in the middle of the story.  You also get titles depending on the feats you succesfully accomplish along with the loot and money.  

You also get fame to participate in the fame system that affects questing too (certain quests will not be open to you if your fame level isn't high enough.)  Their shortfalling is the fact that they mix all of those great ideas and systems with the typical MMOG leveling.

It isn't a bad compromise, but it does dilute the PnP aspect of it.

[schmoo]

MMOGs need to find ways to validate characters beyond sheer numbers. Things like the UO Fame/Karma system (where titles were granted) are a good starting point. Ideally there would be an in-game mechanism for other players to know about your individual achievements (once they are significant enough) other than the ever-increasing # next to your level. Think of it as a merit badge or some sort- a "I survived Lower Guk, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" entry on your character sheet that is viewable by others.

I agree.  What your character would achieve by the PvP part of the mini-game I mentioned earlier is more on the order of fame/karma and not gaining levels.  It could also be a way of unlocking more of the content - successes in the PvP role might allow your character entry to a particular dungeon, or to obtain a pet foozle or a plot of land for a house.  An extended quest could require a PvP component.

There should be more to character advancement than just leveling and becoming more powerful in combat.

[Daeven]

What they said. And if you are interested in a 'pratical implementation' in pen and paper of ths stuff, check out Traveler, a once-upon-the-time popular pen and paper system from the '70's - '80's.

[El Gallo]

So the answer is to change from the current model of of peen waving as by product of character improvement to peen waving for its own sake because the game does nothing but add more merit badges to your boy scout sash?

Why wouldn't I play a good, FREE team FPS that maintained a ladder for all my peen waving needs?

Schmoo's answer is interesting, but not compatible with yours, because he is asking for more rounded character advancement while you are asking for no character advancement at all.

[Fargull]

Schmoo's answer is interesting, but not compatible with yours, because he is asking for more rounded character advancement while you are asking for no character advancement at all.

Hmm...

You know, perhaps allow the PvP to impact the PvE character directly by XP gain, plus the badges/realm gains/ranks/tradeskill resources...

Idea is that while your occupied fighting the good fight for the realm, your character is out exploring, fighting, using their skills in the homeland to secure a better future.  So, not only will this allow advancement and intrigue, will provide a positive to those in PvP and those outside the PvP area by not having toons camping spots...

Thoughts?

[Nebu]

The one thing that separates good pvp from standard mmogs is the concept of balance.  In most pvp-centered (or even FPS) games, the main thing that separates players is ability of the "organic interface" at the terminal.  Time played has a tangible effect in these games... more than some would think. I'm saying that the better FPS players got that way through practice.  The better pvp players in mmog's tend to have a better insight for game mechanics... at least in games where you don't hit the "A" key and wait for the numbers to sort it out.  

MMOG's fail with PvP largely due to buffs (Bots anyone?), the shiny, and catassing.  These all lead to great disparities in the playing field, especially for the high-talent players with a low number or free-time hours available for gameplay.  Though a more elegant implementation may be out there, I can't help but think that pvp in the genre will only be possible by limiting the effect that buffs and items have on a characters strength coupled to a linear increase in power.  My suggestion would be to allow players access to items that offer little more than perhaps a 5-10% boost in their base abilities (stats, resistances, etc.) and level cap them to prevent twinking. Second, a system that linearized power would help reduce the "catass factor" by making no contest a sure thing.  

For example, in a 50 level system two players equally equipped go into battle.  One level 48, the other 50.  The level 50 player would be ~ 4% more powerful (50/48 * 100) and as a result of their tredmilling would only stand to gain a 4% edge.

You know, perhaps allow the PvP to impact the PvE character directly by XP gain, plus the badges/realm gains/ranks/tradeskill resources...

Good idea, sadly DAoC has shown that this is a readily exploited system. If a system were in place that limited experience gain for killing an opponent from the same account multiple times, this may work better.

[Daeven]

So the answer is to change from the current model of of peen waving as by product of character improvement to peen waving for its own sake because the game does nothing but add more merit badges to your boy scout sash?

Not necessarily. See this other post to avoid lots of retyping/cut and paste.

http://www.f13.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=122

[Djamonja]

PVP with time-based advancement mechanisms creates a helluva lot more imbalances than anything else. I agree with Daeven, you can't have meaningful PVP with time-based advancement as the defining factor in who wins.

But since it appears most MMOG players are complete pussies who are afraid of pitting player skill against player skill, we'll continue to get hopelessly boring, derivative shit.

It depends a lot on the amount of time involved and the character advancement design itself -- I thought UO had about the right time investment required to make a competitive character, and the advancement system that was fairly well designed so that newish characters were not far inferior to 7xGMs (player skill/knowledge aside). Player attributes also stayed relatively constant from n00bs up to fully developed characters. SWG also has the fundamental principles in place as far as character advancement/development goes.

With a design that has characters on relatively even footing, it doesn't really matter if you have the combat off in a seperate area, or right in the same area with non-PvP players (assuming the game doesn't have consensual PvP). It simply needs to be meaningful & fun.

[kuro]

Twitch based PvP mini game that provides rewards for the PvE main game is definitely the way to go for the following reasons:

1) You can balance PvP completely separate from your PvE game. You don't have to worry about how any new item or skill will break PvP.

2) You can  have fights determined by player skill rather than time played.

3) You can eliminate the impact of griefers because players aren't emotionally attached to the generic character they are playing in the mini game.  Furthermore you can force people in to balanced teams and prevent ganking.

4) You can allow people who only have 15 minutes to play to jump into your game and still have fun.

5) You can force people out of elitist guilds and make them interact and meet new people.

6)  You can use the mini game to draw in the fps crowd and get them to consider playing your mmorpg.

7) You could even encourage the community to build mods of your PvP mini game and then incorporate the best mods as free content.

8) You can allow people to experience PvP in your game on day 1 and set your game apart from all the other games out there.

9) You can give players a choice of the type of PvP they want to participate in (i.e 1 vs 1, group vs group, army vs army, siege, etc.)

10) As far as satisfying the achievers goes, you make the mini game reward their PvE character and they will play the mini game along with everyone else.

11) Best of all you can add this to existing games.

[Soukyan]

PVP with time-based advancement mechanisms creates a helluva lot more imbalances than anything else. I agree with Daeven, you can't have meaningful PVP with time-based advancement as the defining factor in who wins.

Actually, I'll one up you on this. It is my contention that you can't have meaningful gamplay of any sort while tied to the de facto time-based advancement requirement. It is simply far easier to observe this problem when players are in direct competition.

Sloth made a point in the other thread that he though WoW sounds good to him and that he'll play fo 3 months or so. After which he will quit. IMO that is the single most eloquent condemnation and illustration of the fundamental failings of the genre I've heard yet.

Bingo. By the way, does the upcoming game Fable have levels or will you just roleplay and age naturally? I'd be interested to see.

The fact of the matter is that players use these incremental counters to compete with each other in MMOGs. My level is higher, my sword is more powerful, my epeen is bigger, whatever. In the time-based PvP, it's all about who has the most bonuses accrued. Just look at the realm ranks and master levels of DAoC for an example. The greater issue of time-based advancement in MMOGs is a whole other can of worms and is something that would need to be changed with kid gloves at this point because of the sheer number of brainwashed subscribers of the EQ generation. ;)

[El Gallo]

It seems like you are just designing two entirely different games and shoving them in the same box for no real reason.