LOTRO NDA has been lifted.

[CmdrSlack]

Yes, it was. My first hour in WoW was as a Tauren Warrior, and the Rage meter, as well as the style of the race was interesting. In addition, the combat felt a little more engaging.

In LotRO, I could barely be arsed enough to hit my hotkeys in combat. It was just BORING.

I actually found the dwarf starting area to be fun and engaging.  Heck, I normally hate melee fighters (scrappers in CoH notwithstanding) and loved the champion.

To each his own, I guess.  I did think the human starter area kind of sucked.  The lynchpin for me was that at least I was fighting goblins in Erud Luin, as opposed to spiders and wolves near Archet.

[HaemishM]

Just be aware that if it didn't grab your interest enough to play past the early levels then you have seen very little of the actual game.

Sure. But what I have seen, the gameplay that is going to be with me every single step of the slow grinding way all the way up to level 30 or 40 or whatever, the gameplay I'll experience every single day I play the game from now until forever is the same as other offerings, only not quite as good. That's why it's boring, and that's why MMOG's get 30 minutes from me to show me something new or else they are on the shitpile. It might be fine if I'd never played a fantasy MMOG, or a fantasy Diku MMOG, but since I have, it's boring as fuck.

[WindupAtheist]

If a game isn't fun on the first day, it can suck my cock.

[shiznitz]

If a girl isn't fun on the first date...umm, waitaminute.

[HaemishM]

I'm not going to marry my MMOG, but I do expect it to do more than just lie there inert when I'm on it.

[Arthur_Parker]

Just be aware that if it didn't grab your interest enough to play past the early levels then you have seen very little of the actual game.

Sure. But

But nothing, what you quoted is common sense, it's not my engraved invitation to you to play longer or an excuse for the game being how it is, it's a logical statement of fact, if you don't like it, don't play it.  My comment was made in response to Nebu saying the game would be better if you could attack castles, the nda has just gone so maybe some people didn't know but you can attack castles & defend towns.  In fact one of my major complaints about monsterplay is that attacking castles is just about all there is to do, apart from the very limited character advancement quests.

[Threash]

My favorite part of the Tolkein lore was when Frodo and Aragorn went into the field and killed 6 wolves for a quest.  The moment they dinged level 3 was glorious. 

If they're going to make a game about such an epic tale, at least get rid of the trash mobs and make encounters rich and meaningful.  Grinding yard trash for "ding gratz" really ruins this whole experience.  At least they could have made it like CoH and had you kill wave after wave of orcs trying to assault some castle.  So many opportunities to turn IP this into a rich and engrossing experience and they take the path of producing diku_clone_1873.  Turbine is capable of so much more.   

You know, i could quote you a passage from The Hobbit where Bilbo basically "levels up" after grinding on spiders.  He even mentions feeling stronger and more confident, the only thing that was missing was the "ding".  Just because the book skipped the yard trash doesn't mean it wasn't there, Merry and Pippin didn't turn into great warriors just from hanging around Gandalf, they had to kill plenty of orcs and even drop a raid mob or two.

[HaemishM]

Just be aware that if it didn't grab your interest enough to play past the early levels then you have seen very little of the actual game.

Sure. But

But nothing, what you quoted is common sense, it's not my engraved invitation to you to play longer or an excuse for the game being how it is, it's a logical statement of fact, if you don't like it, don't play it.  My comment was made in response to Nebu saying the game would be better if you could attack castles, the nda has just gone so maybe some people didn't know but you can attack castles & defend towns.  In fact one of my major complaints about monsterplay is that attacking castles is just about all there is to do, apart from the very limited character advancement quests.

I reacted because I hear that excuse often, and in fact, I used to give that excuse myself when dogging a review of MMOG's where the reviewer only played for a few days. No more. Those days are done. Either the game hooks me from the get go, or it isn't made well enough and is on my scrapheap. That's nothing against folks who like the game, but is a statement to devs that shit needs to be fun from the moment I start or I don't play.

[Miasma]

I agree with most everyone else's opinion, I thought it was a good enough game but boring.  I can't even pinpoint the source of the boredom, it's a mix of the dull combat, lacklustre world and Turbine's patented awful character models.  It will be the best MMO Turbine's ever done, not that that should get anyone excited.

[Arthur_Parker]

I reacted because I hear that excuse often, and in fact, I used to give that excuse myself when dogging a review of MMOG's where the reviewer only played for a few days. No more. Those days are done. Either the game hooks me from the get go, or it isn't made well enough and is on my scrapheap. That's nothing against folks who like the game, but is a statement to devs that shit needs to be fun from the moment I start or I don't play.

No problem, Trippy was of the same opinion a few weeks ago that the early game needed a lot of work.  At the time I thought the early game was ok (as it had held my interest) and I thought the end game needed more work as pvp wasn't in and I wasn't sure about the raids.  Looks like he was right, as the early game is getting all the bad word of mouth at the minute, I expect pvp problems to come to light later.  I also think there are major problems with the way items and combat scale in the later stages of the game, I might repost that later.

But in the meantime some more low res screenshots of when I found a hole in the zone wall and explored Angmar and Ered Luin from 5000 feet up walking on air (before the zones were patched in), collecting elf ears as an orc and one of the level 50 quest reward freeps.

[CmdrSlack]

slow grinding way

Haem, was this your impression of LoTRO or was it just your feeling about MMOs in general?  I kinda was surprised by how fast the levels came in LoTRO...

[Venkman]

WoW levels are a bit faster, but LoTRO was pretty good compared to most other games (including CoX). That is a core problem though, because again, as an iteration of a convention already mastered in this genre, it invites yet another inevitable comparison.

Levels alone aren't the only thing to worry on, but they are the primary gate to character customization and rewards for playing certain content. I only really played Human and Elves, though did visit the Hobbit starting area too (can't remember as which, maybe Elf?). The Human area seemed engaging and content complete whereas the Elven one was pretty boring and spread out.

This is a simple content thing, but it being simple means it's a problem. WoW had a problem with this too (Humans, great, Undread, great, Dwarves, ok, Orcs, sorta sucky, Troll, downtime crappy). Hopefully the vast majority of players don't pick the content incomplete race... or that your game isn't designed to split factions where one faction has obviously better content for leveling up than the other :)

Anyway, LoTRO is as grindy as WoW if you're not engaged by the content, regardless of being able to level up sightly faster in WoW. In the end, if you hate grinding, neither game, nor really any diku, is going to please anyway, no matter how faster the levels come.

[Lantyssa]

This is a simple content thing, but it being simple means it's a problem. WoW had a problem with this too (Humans, great, Undread, great, Dwarves, ok, Orcs, sorta sucky, Troll, downtime crappy). Hopefully the vast majority of players don't pick the content incomplete race... or that your game isn't designed to split factions where one faction has obviously better content for leveling up than the other :)

I've seen this mentioned a few times and it confuses me.  Don't Orcs and Trolls have the same starting area?  How can one be okay while the other is crappy?

[Azazel]

Landscapes were pretty, though I'd have preferred more green than brown.

I don't understand you guys. Maybe I am colorblind in the brown spectrum. Do you mean more green than this?

Yeah, I don't get this "eugh, it's so brown" bandwagon that seems to have trundled through on its way to the Darkfall thread.  I've never seen a more verdant area in an MMO than LoTRO's Shire.

Yes, that part of Archet is nice, the Shire (I just visited briefly, since I'd done my n00b quests in Archet) was also green, though the places where I spent my time were less green - the area around that swamp near Bree, and everything west of it as far as I managed to travel. I did enjoy the look of the game, as mentioned. But the impression it left on me was a very brown one.

I don't think LoTRO is so much better, save for the Lore and the Graphics, and considering that they spent on it probably a quarter of the WoW's budget, I'd say being a good clone is quite an chievement. But judge it from the first hour?

Is/was your first hour in WoW SO fun, so different? Oh really? Ah... then I understand.

Well, as it was a beta I certainly felt obliged to spend a fair amount of time playng the game, and honestly I did find it fun from the start (once I got it working - gamma slider crash bug). Unfortunately it never really progressed or improved all that much once I hit something like level 10? 9? 11? It just became WoW-lite, so I decided to do some exploring to see some of the places I wanted to check out. I mean, Middle-Earth, right? I saw The Shire, Bag End, Weathertop, Bree, The Prancing Pony, a little of the barrows area (except I died too many times) and all of those were cool.

Would it have been as cool if the nameplate out front said "The Pig & Whistle Inn" or if Weathertop was the same model, same place, but called "The Tower of Durnholde"? If Bag End was any one of the other Hobbit Holes in the game? Actually no. The IP-name recognition is what added that "wow factor" to the locations that really made them more exciting than the Halfling Houses in Rivervale in EQ1. When I'd run out of those early-game-achievable-to-see places, well I was left with another WoW, but with what had become slowly-paced combat to level up because there was no chance of my surviving longer enough toi explore the other cool places. (I wanted to see the petrified Trolls from The Hobbit, the ford, maybe Rivendell.)

My first hour in WoW (Open Beta/Stress) was actually kind of cool and it was more exciting and fun. Of course it was the first time I'd really started from scratch since EQ1 years before it, so I wasn't as burned out as I am now. But you know, hooking me from the start is their (game designers in general) job. If their game can't do that, then I don't care how good it is at level XYZ or 4 hours in. If they can't do that, then they can fuck off. (Last major game to fail that test, BTW, was the new Zelda on Wii). Games don't get an hour ot two "to try" from me anymore either. I hate to mirror schild of all people, but these days you get 5 minutes from me to make me want to play your game.

LOTRO is/was a decent game. Small-g good even. But, as you said. "WoW does it better" for me, so why would I bother to play (and pay for) LOTRO as well or instead?

The achievements thing was also quite a nice touch. Hopefully that kind of thong becomes regularly incorporated into other games in the genre as well.



Darniaq - Which of the WoW books are worth checking out?


And Lantyssa - yes they do share the same starting area. And FWIW I found it perfectly okay to play through, too. I liked the red earth look to Durotar. Not sure how one is ok and the other is crappy though..

[Calantus]

I reacted because I hear that excuse often, and in fact, I used to give that excuse myself when dogging a review of MMOG's where the reviewer only played for a few days. No more. Those days are done. Either the game hooks me from the get go, or it isn't made well enough and is on my scrapheap. That's nothing against folks who like the game, but is a statement to devs that shit needs to be fun from the moment I start or I don't play.

I'm with Haemish here. I don't care to grind for my fun anymore. I got burnt out of that in EQ and didn't play WoW for a month after it came out because of it. I eventually started playing because everyone was saying it was really good, and it was. It changed the grind enough that it was fresh and fun again for a while. Now I'm burned out on that too and a game has to either grab me like WoW did (that is improve over the old which is now WoW, achieving WoW isn't enough anymore, you have to be to WoW what WoW was to EQ), or it's not going to get my time. I'll probably pick up this game just to mess about for the free month, but there's basically no chance I'd play for longer.

[Venkman]

I've seen this mentioned a few times and it confuses me. Don't Orcs and Trolls have the same starting area? How can one be okay while the other is crappy?

To me it's mostly that the Orcs are the resident group of Durotar, so they're all over the place, the ones giving out the quests, the ones with the storylines. The Trolls have one village in that area (rastafarian village or whatever it's called), but otherwise the only other stronghold of Trolls I've encountered is in Stranglehorn Vale, a place to go in your 30s. The Trolls just don't have a story until you're encountering them there, or in Hinterlands (remnants of the Amani Empire). Trolls just feel like a way-incomplete story.

If you're just playing the game, then this really doesn't matter of course :). You only worry about Race when you want to choose a side in PvP or if they give some compelling racial bonus.

Darniaq - Which of the WoW books are worth checking out?

Richard A Knaak seems to have the bulk of the books. Manage one's expectation for prose o course, like, don't read these instead of playing or reading Tolstoy or something :) I like the books because they add detail to a lore I am enjoying at the moment (same when I liked Star Wars, Star Trek, etc). I've also been doing a lot of traveling lately though, so this has been good for flights (someday I'll have a laptop that a) fits on my lap; and, b) can be opened in on a plane):

• War of the Ancients I thought was both good story and good writing (for this sort o thing). Really delves into Malfurion, Illidan and Tyrande (as well as many of the Aspects and demigods... particularly the Earth Aspect/Deathwing). The battle sequences get formulaec, but most times something significant to the story is going to happen, so they're worth at least skimming.
  
• The Last Guardian is the story of Khadgar meeting, being mentored by, and then uncovering the truth about Medivh. This one I really liked. Khadgar is the sort of character I can relate too, sort of embodies my worldview of the quintessential Mage. Not elitist, very curious (almost antiestablishment so), realizes the fallacy of his ivory tower upbringing, does what's right when he needs to but otherwise is sorta neutral good, that sorta thing.
  
• Rise of the Horde was also a very good backstory book. Adds a lot of details that culminate in Thrall's and Hellscreams defeat of Mannoroth in Warcraft III, thus ending the Bloodlust. It also adds some interesting detail to the origins of the Draenei.
  

Next up or me are The Sunwell Trilogy and Day of the Dragon.

[HaemishM]

slow grinding way

Haem, was this your impression of LoTRO or was it just your feeling about MMOs in general?  I kinda was surprised by how fast the levels came in LoTRO...

The grind is of course, all in the mind. But yeah, it felt slow, mainly because the combat was so unengaging. It's as much a feeling about MMOG's in general, mainly because they all take the same approach to combat. Hit auto-attack, kick off your specials when their timers have cooled down, rinse repeat. Had LotRO been my first MMO, it might not have felt so bad, but as a second or even third MMOG, it's so stinking similar to everything else that it makes even the trip to level 4 (where I left my rogue) grindy. But even then, there's still something about the timing and pace of combat in LotRO that made combat doubly uninteresting, and it was the same feeling I got from DDO combat, the feeling that my actions weren't responsive to my keypresses. I had the same problems with Matrix Online.

As Rasix said, if you can't get that basic interaction down, the whole package just falls apart and any length of leveling time is a grind.

[Yegolev]

As long as I am not relegated to killing monsters to get the XP, LotRO is great.  Without the quest XP, things get tedious.  I'd much rather do mail delivery quests than beat up on wolves.

[Lantyssa]

I've seen this mentioned a few times and it confuses me. Don't Orcs and Trolls have the same starting area? How can one be okay while the other is crappy?

To me it's mostly that the Orcs are the resident group of Durotar, so they're all over the place, the ones giving out the quests, the ones with the storylines. The Trolls have one village in that area (rastafarian village or whatever it's called), but otherwise the only other stronghold of Trolls I've encountered is in Stranglehorn Vale, a place to go in your 30s. The Trolls just don't have a story until you're encountering them there, or in Hinterlands (remnants of the Amani Empire). Trolls just feel like a way-incomplete story.

If you're just playing the game, then this really doesn't matter of course :). You only worry about Race when you want to choose a side in PvP or if they give some compelling racial bonus.

Sei'jin Village.  Zoram'gar (or whatever) is mostly trolls, not that any Horde is going to run to the western side of Ashenvale, and there aren't many quests there.

[Endie]

Sei'jin Village.  Zoram'gar (or whatever) is mostly trolls, not that any Horde is going to run to the western side of Ashenvale, and there aren't many quests there.

Weeellll... Actually it's a shortish journey from that mountainous zone to the NW of the barrens, through a tunnel you have to navigate from the goblin logging operation for some quest or another.  Plus, there're some instance quests there that are kinda worthwhile in the unlikely event you can get enough participants.  On a PvP server, however, it's gank-on-a-stick land, and very much avoidable for fun and profit.

[Tannhauser]

I don't notice the grind if I'm having fun running around doing the quests (see Hellfire Peninsula).
I'll be playing LOTR because I'm mainly an explorer and the chance to explore Middle Earth is, well, the ultimate in a fantasy world to me.  Glad to hear Turbine did a decent job on the world.  I"m gonna go to Rivendell and shag Arwen! 

As for combat, I finally figured out why I just can't get into EQ2.  It's the tedious combat.  I love everything else about the game (ok maybe not crafting), but the combat bores me to tears.  To hear that LOTR combat is boring is pretty worrying. 

[stray]

LotRO did a good job on the world? Huh? It doesn't even feel like a world. It's more encapsulated than WoW, and a step above GW. Some of it is as neatly laid out as WoW's zones are, but they're even smaller.

It's not highly instanced like GW or DDO, but you know that feeling you get at a Disney Land ride....Where everything is represented in miniature? That's kind of how LotRO feels, except for Middle Earth.

Also, if you dislike EQ2 combat, you'll dislike this even more. EQ2 is actually better (shitty as it is). I don't even feel like I'm doing anything in this game except pressing buttons for different animations.

I"m gonna go to Rivendell and shag Arwen!

No. You're going to do nothing except see a bunch of stupid text next to her head. If that.

[Falconeer]

Combat is very similar to WoW one and I fail to see the big difference between the two.
EQ2 one on the other hand is pretty similar just to itself and yes it has lots of details that make it pretty boring, especially after the first 15 levels or so.
I loved EQ2 and played it for 2 years, but I prefer both WoW and LoTRO (and Vanguard) combat style and pace.

[Arthur_Parker]

LotRO did a good job on the world? Huh? It doesn't even feel like a world. It's more encapsulated than WoW, and a step above GW. Some of it is as neatly laid out as WoW's zones are, but they're even smaller.

I'm fairly sure the zones in LOTRO are far larger than WoW, you might be mistaking an area within a zone for a whole zone.  I think the world does certainly feel small compared to the books especially in the shire, but a lot of that has to do with travel distances, they clearly wanted to go the WoW route of areas full of content.

I'm also not getting where all the hate for this is coming from, it's Turbine the fact it's any good at all is a surprise, LOTRO is 10x better than AC2 and 5x better than DDO, if WoW didn't exist then LOTRO would be the best all round game on the market.  Are you surprised it's not better than a game by Blizzard or what?

[Venkman]

Actually, as I said earlier, if WoW wasn't around, I doubt LoTRO would exist in the form that it does. It'd come out, to be sure, but probably not have combat or UI so similar to what WoW proved to be successful. Without WoW, they'd be where we were when SOE ran the show: trying to figure out what works and making stuff up as they go.

LoTRO is worlds better than AC2, but just different from DDO. DDO is a fine game, it just shouldn't be billed as an MMO.

Falconeer, the problem with LoTRO combat is pacing and visual feedback. WoW makes it feel more dynamic as a total experience. Otherwise, yea, mechanically they operate very similarly. If you like the world of LoTRO you can like the combat.

[stray]

Are you surprised it's not better than a game by Blizzard or what?

No, I don't really care about that (that goes for you too, Falc).

[EDIT] I mean, that goes for your post too, Falc ;).

[Arthur_Parker]

I find it difficult to believe, but it appears there's been another major Guardian nerf, that's about the fourth since september.  Just in case anyone read my post above, where I said I had fun playing this for three months.  Keep in mind when making a decision to buy or not, that Turbine now thinks I was playing an overpowered class. 

[Yegolev]

I spent plenty of time playing a warrior in WoW, and combat there was relatively fun.  In LotRO, not so much.  I think they were working on the pacing, but I think it might also have to do with the avatars and weapons not being stolen from a GW catalog, hard to say.  It was also rather quiet, sort of muffled.  I like the game, but not because of the combat.

Now, there are plenty of games in which I enjoy the combat more than WoW, so let's keep things in perspective here.  I think if WoW combat was truly fun in itself, I might still be playing it.

[Margalis]

I think the "hate" for LOTRO is that it is a WOW clone that is a step below WOW.

I wouldn't say there is hate rather than disinterest. Other than being bored of WOW or loving LOTRO lore why play?

[CmdrSlack]

I think the "hate" for LOTRO is that it is a WOW clone that is a step below WOW.

I wouldn't say there is hate rather than disinterest. Other than being bored of WOW or loving LOTRO lore why play?

Surprisingly enough, not everyone has played WoW.  I thought it was well done for a game with levels and stuff.  I also liked the world itself.  I didn't get the overwhelming feeling of brown people say they got.  As far as fantasy games go, I'm pretty much done.  But if I was going to play a fantasy game, it'd be LoTRO, not WoW.  I could give a rat's ass about the WoW lore.  I actually like and enjoy the LoTRO lore.  Therefore, LoTRO is the less boring fantasy-themed diku, IMO.

[Venkman]

It's not just lore. It's total experience. Ya really should give WoW a shot, just to compare. I personally didn't care too much about the Warcraft lore until I was in WoW for a bit over a year. The lore sorta grows on ya after awhile :)

But then, I didn't even read the LoTR trilogy and hobbit until after I was two years into EQ1 ;)

[Azazel]

My interest in the WoW lore has really only started in the last month or so, mostly inspired by the fact that I played and finished WC2 back on the PS1 combined with a bit of "so I guess all these ruined cities hereabouts are ruined for a reason". My interest in the Tolkien/Middle Earth lore started when I was in Primary School and read both The Hobbit and LOTR in Grades 5 and 6. Also played MERP in high school, watched the films, etc etc. For that matter, I watched Star Wars when I was a kid and loved all three films growing up, and even liked select bits of the prequels, though I skipped all the shitty EU novels. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k I've been into since the start of Hign School (when Rogue Trader was released, basically).

Point is - I'm much more into the Lore of both LOTR and Star Wars and Warhammer than I am of Warcraft. However, lore isn't a game by itself. I didn't get into SWG at all, despite being a big SW fan. I thought the beta of LOTR was good, but not "buy-me great". The game is what you play, not the lore. If you were to take the LOTR lore/licence out of the game they have, it would actually be less fun.

On the other hand, I feel that if Blizz made a Star Wars dikumud game in the style of WoW, then it would be more than several shades more awesome than a Starcraft dikumud. So yes, a good licence, well executed can add a certain something to a game, and I think that LOTR's licence does add "fun" in this game, but even with that extra, the game is less fun than WoW.

It's not a matter of expectations not being met or any shit like that, it's a good game, just not as fun for me as WoW, which features what to me is less interesting lore than LOTR does.

[lamaros]

You know, i could quote you a passage from The Hobbit where Bilbo basically "levels up" after grinding on spiders.  He even mentions feeling stronger and more confident, the only thing that was missing was the "ding".  Just because the book skipped the yard trash doesn't mean it wasn't there, Merry and Pippin didn't turn into great warriors just from hanging around Gandalf, they had to kill plenty of orcs and even drop a raid mob or two.

Powerleveled IMO.

And that Ent shit? Flasking up. Fucking consumables.

[Margalis]

A Starcraft MMO actually sounds like an awesome idea. You have a bunch of interesting races and classes all set. I mean, it is SO easy to come up with the characters and the setting is well-established. The only thing that would be tricky is what do you do for vehicles? Can you play as a tank driver class or just a marine/medic?

Starcraft would probably fit in very well with what Tabula Rasa is trying to do.

[Cheddar]

I am torn on this one.  We will see how things go before live is official.

And the word on the street is "Keep an eye out for Starcraft MMO announcement in the next couple months."  Just a rumor, but ya know...