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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  News  |  Topic: I See What You Did There. A Vanguard Review. 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: I See What You Did There. A Vanguard Review.  (Read 105595 times)
koboshi
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Posts: 304

Camping is a legitimate strategy.


Reply #70 on: January 30, 2007, 04:22:16 AM

The current comments (here) remind me of the 1950's movie, "Plan nine from outer space", rented on VHS in the 80's, and billed as the worst movie ever. That's the only reason you'd rent it, and it was pretty bad. But it was also a low-budget film.

  Yea and this... not really low budget at all.  It's more like Hollywood’s Godzilla then some cute cult film made for less than ten grand. True they both have kitsch but big budget and "massively multiplayer" can't live on kitsch. Multiverse may be able to, but not SOE.

-We must teach them Max!
Hey, where do you keep that gun?
-None of your damn business, Sam.
-Shall we dance?
-Lets!
Murgos
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Reply #71 on: January 30, 2007, 05:51:49 AM

So yeah, frontpages have always been overrated for community sites.  The real value is in the forums.  Trying to aggregate that value and opinion onto the front page would be a tedious and thankless task.  That's why so many people blog, IMO.

Bring back Arcadian biotch!

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
slog
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Reply #72 on: January 30, 2007, 06:33:59 AM

A good post release MMO review really needs around a week's worth of playtime (calendar, not /played). 

No, it really, really doesn't. I used to think so, but now I follow the rule I blogged about, the 30-minute MMOG. If the gameplay is not in anyway engaging or NEW after 30-minutes of play time, especially when talking about a DIKU, there is no amount of playtime that will ever change what you think in that first 30 minutes. And if the good stuff takes more than 30 minutes to get to, the devs are just being grind-hungry dicks who want me to subscribe for months before I'm given any of the goodie.

Schild's review only lacked an Everquest reference but Camelot will do as well.



In the first 30 minutes of LOTRO I learned that my character would auto attack and I would mash a few hot keys for special attacks and I was destined to work for a shipping company.

good rule

Friends don't let Friends vote for Boomers
CmdrSlack
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Reply #73 on: January 30, 2007, 07:43:55 AM

So yeah, frontpages have always been overrated for community sites.  The real value is in the forums.  Trying to aggregate that value and opinion onto the front page would be a tedious and thankless task.  That's why so many people blog, IMO.

Bring back Arcadian biotch!

Let me tell you about baseball and my quest for hats....

But yeah, his writing style was great, even if people knocked him for some of his subject matter. 

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
HaemishM
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Reply #74 on: January 30, 2007, 09:08:40 AM

In the first 30 minutes of LOTRO I learned that my character would auto attack and I would mash a few hot keys for special attacks and I was destined to work for a shipping company.

good rule

Amazingly enough, I learned that as well. I seem to learn that lesson a lot in MMOG's. In Vanguard, I even had to teach myself that lesson instead of having it taught for me.

Look, I gave everyone a review of Vanguard way back when the closed beta started, before I ever played the damn game. I'll repeat it here for you.

Quote from: Me Being Right
Vanguard sucks monkey balls. It is over polygonated used douche canisters. It is fecal matter given virtual wings. Playing it is the equivalent of hiring a really ugly she-man to come to your house and pound your testicles and other tender bits with a meat mallet. It is a bloated, steaming pile of shaders and bumpmapping loosely draped about the corpse of a dead gameplay design philosophy that's barely able to shamble its zombie-fied remains online.

And you can quote me on that.

So I quoted myself. Then after playing it:

Quote
Like I've said before, the game is EQ1 with a WoW-like quest interface and a shitty, overblown unoptimized graphics engine that chugs even on a top-end machine. If you liked EQ1, you'll be playing the same fucking game. It's 1998 all over again.

That's all the review needed, though if you really want an accurate one, go back to 1998 and read a review of EQ1. It's the same game. It's like an expansion pack where they changed the name of everything and added a new skillset or class and called it a day.

The game is so retro, it's not worth the 5 threads and counting we have on it.

Signe
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Muse.


Reply #75 on: January 30, 2007, 09:25:43 AM

I agreed with Haemish then and I do now.  Personally, I think Schild's review was spot on.  Maybe a touch too verbose.   tongue  I can't even force myself to agree with the people who say that they released Vanguard too early and that it's needs to cook at least six months longer.  You might be able to fix the bugs and stability, but you can't really fix the fact that the entire concept is based on a "vision" that's old and tired.  I think, however, that as time goes by, you'll see adjustments to the "retro" rubbish to bring it more in line with today's products, if ony to attract more subs.  (which I think they're going to find themselves needing)  BUT... we already have EQ2 which did exactly the same thing, so what's the point?

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Nebu
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Reply #76 on: January 30, 2007, 10:00:07 AM

BUT... we already have EQ2 which did exactly the same thing, so what's the point?

They're not exactly the same.  Nor is EQ1 exactly the same.  They're VERY CLOSE to those two, but not exactly the same. 

Why comment?  Because every new game brings a small new audience.  An audience willing to listen and perhaps, with new ideas worth considering.  Every game will be someone's first game.  The number of someones varies with each title of course, but it still happens.  Each of these someones also doesn't know the legacy before them.  What's so wrong about wanting to give them a fair and honest evaluation to help get them up to speed... this way they don't have to suffer as we have.  The greatest majority of these someones will read their first few reviews from those "other sites".  We all know that most of those reviews have some agenda attached. 

There is a wealth of knowledge here that could be used to empower consumers.  At least consumers willing to look at things with their eyes open.  I happen to think that educating the consumer is one way to help change the industry, albeit a minor one.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
sigil
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Reply #77 on: January 30, 2007, 12:39:39 PM

I feel really, really sorry for someone whose first game is  an MMO.

Especially Vanguard.
Soukyan
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Reply #78 on: January 30, 2007, 12:58:58 PM

I feel really, really sorry for someone whose first game is  an MMO.

Especially Vanguard.

Oh, the irony of the post and the poster's name. Har!

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
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jpark
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Reply #79 on: January 30, 2007, 07:44:30 PM

I thought I would have a look at this game - and picked it up today.

The moment I launch the DVD - after the intial intro screen - it crashes.  Set-up.exe problem.

Bah.

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #80 on: January 31, 2007, 06:02:40 AM

Ok, this has to be a motherfucking first. Vanguard's launch broke EQ2.

Jesus fucking Christ. I could not access any expansions or adventure packs in EQ2 last night. I knew VG would be a nightmare but why the goddamn hell should it spill over?

Talk about fule for the "burn SOE" movement.

Yes, I know half the community is about to type "I told you so."

I have never played WoW.
Trippy
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Posts: 23595


Reply #81 on: January 31, 2007, 06:35:09 AM

Ok, this has to be a motherfucking first. Vanguard's launch broke EQ2.

Jesus fucking Christ. I could not access any expansions or adventure packs in EQ2 last night. I knew VG would be a nightmare but why the goddamn hell should it spill over?

Talk about fule for the "burn SOE" movement.

Yes, I know half the community is about to type "I told you so."
Refresh my memory: I recall there was something funky about the way EQ2 handled those things.
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #82 on: January 31, 2007, 08:00:10 AM

I am on Station Pass so all adventure packs (as long as you were a Station Pass sub when it launched and 100% of the time since) should be available to me. I logged out of EQ2 and tried to log into VG and was told I did not have a valid subscription. Umm, how did I play the previous two days then?

That said, I could not even log into my Station account this morning to post something on the EQ2 tech forums. The log in kept timing out.

I have never played WoW.
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #83 on: January 31, 2007, 08:06:10 AM

This morning I received this email from SOE:
Quote
Greetings,

By using the auto-unsubscribe URL at the bottom of an email you received, you have been removed from the mailing list for the newsletter or promotional email that you previously requested.


To re-subscribe to this newsletter or promotional mailing list or to otherwise change your mailing list preferences, please go to https://secure.station.sony.com/optin/viewOptins.m to edit your Email Newsletters and choose which emails you would like to receive.


Thank you!

I never did it.  Someone should review their website.  Like them maybe.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
HaemishM
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Reply #84 on: January 31, 2007, 09:02:52 AM

This morning I received this email from SOE:
Quote
Greetings,

By using the auto-unsubscribe URL at the bottom of an email you received, you have been removed from the mailing list for the newsletter or promotional email that you previously requested.


To re-subscribe to this newsletter or promotional mailing list or to otherwise change your mailing list preferences, please go to https://secure.station.sony.com/optin/viewOptins.m to edit your Email Newsletters and choose which emails you would like to receive.


Thank you!

I never did it.  Someone should review their website.  Like them maybe.

Why? They'll just fuck it up more. Like making it release demons from the 5th circle of hell onto anyone using email.

Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #85 on: February 01, 2007, 07:03:40 AM

Hey, don't knock 5th circle of hell, man. We had a drummer from the 5th circle for a while. Sure, he was a cranked-out overweight mexican on a 7-day high, ready to snap at any minute...but that fucker could play the shit out of speed metal.

Drummers...they're a funny bunch.
Krakrok
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Posts: 2189


Reply #86 on: February 02, 2007, 12:01:23 AM

So yeah, frontpages have always been overrated for community sites.  The real value is in the forums.  Trying to aggregate that value and opinion onto the front page would be a tedious and thankless task.  That's why so many people blog, IMO.

One way to do this would be to make it so posts can be rated. With X number of + ratings or whatever a link to the post shows up on the home page and then gradually slides down and off the bottom as newer posts get rated up.

It might be kind of weird dropping people into the middle of threads from the home page though.
eldaec
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Posts: 11803


Reply #87 on: February 03, 2007, 02:18:51 PM


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Samwise
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Reply #88 on: February 03, 2007, 03:05:48 PM

One way to do this would be to make it so posts can be rated. With X number of + ratings or whatever a link to the post shows up on the home page and then gradually slides down and off the bottom as newer posts get rated up.

I do like me some emergence.  Isn't that how Slashdot works, sorta?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Trippy
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Posts: 23595


Reply #89 on: February 03, 2007, 03:33:00 PM

One way to do this would be to make it so posts can be rated. With X number of + ratings or whatever a link to the post shows up on the home page and then gradually slides down and off the bottom as newer posts get rated up.
I do like me some emergence.  Isn't that how Slashdot works, sorta?
No. Slashdot has a moderation/karma system for rating comments rather than a pure voting system and articles themselves are picked by editors. What Krakrok is proposing is more like Digg.
schild
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Reply #90 on: February 03, 2007, 04:36:28 PM

I've wanted to make a proper Digg clone just for games since the first time I saw Digg. le sigh.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #91 on: February 05, 2007, 06:30:35 AM

Instead of 'digg this' pages could say 'f this!'. I like it.
Slyfeind
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Reply #92 on: February 06, 2007, 09:16:27 PM

How can he do anything like that when he played about 3 minutes?

Personally, I'd love to give every MMO at least 3 minutes of playtime. But there's over 100 of them out there now, and I have to work during the weekdays.

"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want.  Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
HaemishM
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Reply #93 on: February 07, 2007, 09:31:18 AM

Most don't deserve 3 minutes.

shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #94 on: February 07, 2007, 10:18:38 AM

The first Vanguard "I quit" rant:

Quote
Cancelled subscription. Deleted character. Good riddance.

1. Worst customer support ever. The first couple of days were execllent. /petition - GM response - problem solved. Wow, thank you. Now I have serious problems and my petition gets deleted and ignored. Eff you.

2. Fansite only developer interaction is the dumbest thing imaginable for an mmo. When all the fan sites look like they were developed by people with extremely minimal web development skill, and the ones that actually do look nice (vanguardspheres.com) are so unorganized and cyptic (normal forum names, please?) I'd rather not waste my time. And in the end, there are simply too many fansites. ..zzZZ

3. Annoying community. People have been rude in other games I have played, which is tolerable and something I can ignore. But vg players... wow. Amazing. You guys are truly unique. Even people in my guild react like fanboy's when I speak of bugs and problems I have. I get responses like "you can play without animations and sound, you don't need them." "If you don't like it, del your toon and cancel your sub." Neat.

4. Boring/pointless PVP. Still no decent reward for PVP because everyone banks their coin. You might catch someone out grinding and they have accumulated a few silver and you net yourself some copper. Not worth my time. I've played free mmorpgs with superior pvp systems (conquer online, namely). Third generation mmo my ass.

5. Balance. The idiots say "you can't balance for pvp and pve at the same time." Hey folks, I'm a software developer. It's pretty simple. Unless you code like a clueless lackey who got his coding skills from a BS in CS, you can keep pve dmg/spells/effects/etc the same and have the dmg/spells/effects/etc -completely- different when targeting a player character. My guess is that this was poorly planned and not implemented from the start. Way to go.

6. Boring (yes, more boredom, this time from the pve side). LFG... hey, lvl 20 rogue LFG... Boss run! Hell, I had a group at a boss -spamming- my ass off for people to come kill it. "LF3M to kill a xxxxx boss! Don't even have to fight to get to him, just join and we will summon you, come for heroic loot." No response. Bunk. Don't tell me to go craft when I can't find a group, I don't want to craft. I'm an adventurer and I make my coin from... adventuring. I also have a life. I want to have fun when I log in, not feel like I'm going to work.

Enough with the points, its time rant (as if I hadn't done enough). Quest rewards. I remember in beta, the quest feedback form. Apparently no one used this except for me. I can do a lvl 12 quest and get 3s and a nice rare item. Or... I can do a lvl 18-20 quest for... 1s! Kill a boss after camping it for 3 hours for a reward of... 1s! OMG, not to mention I spend 4 hours killing mobs to get to the boss that drop... NOTHING! OMG, yes NOTHING! 200 mobs killed, zero drops. Talk about fun.

I'm falling asleep here. Risk vs. Reward is unbelievably junked in this game. I can run to a far off land (mildy amusing, but the fun wears off fast) and solo some quests below my level, but they run out fast. And once that resource is exhausted, its back to going into a dungeon with a group for nothing at all, or to complete a quest with a shit reward. Or, better yet, get crap exp for killing 4 dot mobs 2-3 levels above my own in that dungeon with my group, only to wipe after 3-4 hours and lose more exp than gained in that time. Excellent.

The final word. Why give up? Why not speak up and give my suggestions to help better the game? Uhm, where? What location are the devs actually paying attention to? Its bad enough that I wasted 10 minutes at work to post this on this site... should I now go and spend all the time it takes to register on all the other forums and paste this over and over again? Who is listening? I don't think they are. Even on the official forums in beta, I posted suggestions that got over a thousand positive replies from players backing up my suggestion, with zero response from anyone from sigil.

Hey sigil, thank you though, for making me giggle the first time I cut down a tree. That was neat. Thank you for making me spend $1,200 on upgrades (can't really call them upgrades, I basically built an entirely new system) to play the game that still only gets mediocre performance. This will come in handy when I go play some other game by some other company. My machine really does rock now. I appreciate it. Thank you for taking away my will to even log into the game and spend more time with my gf, I know she appreciates it.

You know, honestly, I told myself: This game is good enough that I can live through the bugs. I can stick it out, get that head-start by being in pre-release and be ahead of the pack when the game finally blows up. I told myself I could play yet another stupid game with the same unimaginative Orcs/Elves/Goblins/Hybrid-Humanoid fantasy setting... come on, you guys are worse than the Lucas universe where 90% of all alien life is nothing more than humanoids with strange heads placed upon them. Negative. Give me a break. Better yet, give me some originality. Add in all the broken skills, broken and boring quests, missing inventory items, missing experience, missing mail, poor balance and you have one very unsatisfied gamer. The list goes on far longer than I have patience to explain.

Peace out. Have fun. I'm going to go play medieval total war 2 until another decent mmorpg comes out. Or maybe UFO: Extraterrestrials (the closest thing to a true sequal to the greatest TBS game of all time, X-COM: UFO Defense, hope it doesn't suck).
http://forums.tentonhammer.com/showthread.php?p=57239#post57239

I have never played WoW.
schild
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Reply #95 on: February 07, 2007, 10:33:19 AM

Technically speaking, my comic was the first "I quit" rant.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #96 on: February 07, 2007, 10:44:16 AM

That was funny.  He was in the beta so he knew about every single problem he listed but still went out and bought the game, then he also spent $1,200 on upgrades for his machine and only now does he realize he doesn't like it...

I'm always suspicious of people who complain about petitions too, I get the feeling they create about a dozen a day and that they are mostly issues related to user error/ignorance.  In all the MMO's I've played I can count on my fingers how many petitions I've had to create.
Nebu
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Reply #97 on: February 07, 2007, 12:14:55 PM

I lasted a week before I got bored.  I'm not surprised and I don't feel a need to rant about it.  It held my interest long enough to be worth the box price.





"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Rasix
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Reply #98 on: February 07, 2007, 12:21:57 PM

I lasted a week before I got bored.  I'm not surprised and I don't feel a need to rant about it.  It held my interest long enough to be worth the box price.

I can't remember the last MMO I actually bought and played for less than the entire free month. I'd feel ripped if I only got a week out of it.

Too each their own.  Just seems like a rather poor return on investment.

-Rasix
Sairon
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Reply #99 on: February 07, 2007, 12:28:38 PM

Quote
Natural selection. Those with lower tolerances for pain will weed themselves out early on.

I think MMOs are unique in the entire industry of entertainment in the regard that they can have consumers say things like when being positive about your product.
Nebu
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Reply #100 on: February 07, 2007, 12:44:10 PM

I can't remember the last MMO I actually bought and played for less than the entire free month. I'd feel ripped if I only got a week out of it.

Too each their own.  Just seems like a rather poor return on investment.

Trying things for myself often results in a significant cost without a lot of return.  I guess I just consider that the price of an education (of sorts).  I've spent a lot more on bottles of wine that didn't do anything for me.  Figure that's the price to form my own opinion. 

It would have been cheaper had I gotten into the beta, but I'm hardly the target demographic.  (I did apply for the beta long ago btw)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 12:45:43 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Strazos
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Reply #101 on: February 07, 2007, 10:17:39 PM

I think he was really spot-on in his rant, Especially with regards to PvP balance. Seriously, how hard it is to write code for an attack to differentiate between Mob or PC, and apply the appropriate damage tables?

The only game I can think of that tried this method is CoX. Why haven't more people tried? Is an IF THEN ELSE statement hard?

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Margalis
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Reply #102 on: February 08, 2007, 12:22:22 AM

What is so odd is that people don't consider this sort of thing up front. Talk about not learning from the past.

Roots, sleeps, two hit kills - fun against mobs, not so fun against humans.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #103 on: February 08, 2007, 07:44:16 AM

I had a wake-up call last night. I have played VG exclusively for the last two weeks during my usual gaming time (rarely more than 10 hours a week.) Last night, I fired it up again, but all the servers were down. So, back to EQ2 where I have one character, a 65 berserker, that I started at launch. I played for 90 minutes. I saw two new zones (both much more interesting visually than anything yet experienced in VG), dinged 2 AAs and made level 66 from 75% into 65. It has taken me probably 15 hours of play to go from 1-10 in VG.

What the hell was I thinking?

I have never played WoW.
Rithrin
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Posts: 149


Reply #104 on: February 08, 2007, 08:25:19 AM

I think he was really spot-on in his rant, Especially with regards to PvP balance. Seriously, how hard it is to write code for an attack to differentiate between Mob or PC, and apply the appropriate damage tables?

The only game I can think of that tried this method is CoX. Why haven't more people tried? Is an IF THEN ELSE statement hard?

Actually, spells in VG do less damage against players. I have one spell that is supposed to do a minimum of 400 dmg or so, and it rarely breaches 200 against players.

The flaw in this method is that there is no way to differentiate the values of healing spells between PvP and PvE. How does a spell know if its healing damage dealt by a player instead of a mob? Which leads to healers being able to spent 20% mana to stay alive while multiple players expend their entire pool in a futile attempt to kill them.

The sweetest wine comes from the grapes of victory.
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