Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 26, 2024, 04:09:21 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Lord of the Rings Online  |  Topic: So anyone else tried monster play yet? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Print
Author Topic: So anyone else tried monster play yet?  (Read 14822 times)
Xanthippe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4779


Reply #35 on: June 26, 2007, 04:02:32 PM

I haven't played as a freep, but as a creep, it's disheartening to face smaller numbers of humans and get one's ass repeatedly kicked.

Monsters need to be beefed up some.
gravdiggr
Terracotta Army
Posts: 43


Reply #36 on: June 27, 2007, 07:39:49 AM

Why not? And by the way, as long as I agree (and agreed) on the fact that it feels much more fun with your char than with the monster, the factor is not the difference is strength. Maybe it's because I am on an overpopulated server, but we are having some huge battles and wars and basically monsters wins the most of it.

It's not an ambitious PvP the LotRO one. It's just plain fun. It probably has short legs, and that's why I am hoping some a smart dev can see the potential and gives it much much love in the immediate future.

I got a monster up to rank 5 in beta. I basically had to grind my way through hours of mindless and worthless fighting to get to that point.
Here are the various issues (major design problems that a 2 year old should have been able to guess before implementing it) i flagged at the point (from a reaver point of view):

1- If balance is made so that 3 monsters = 1 player, what happens when 20 players come in ? You need suddenly 60 monsters. It works well when there arent a lot of characters at 50, but eventually, everyone is 50 and at that point, the balance of power is going to be seriously on player side. Of course a 20 vs 60 is mostly a slideshow.

2- The balance is made so that humans have more avoidance/mitigation, monsters have more HP. The problem here is that humans have more healing than monsters, which basically mean that your healing is even less in terms of total survivability. If the player can heal for 1200 with a tank that has 2400 hp and 75% damage reduction, the monster would need 12000 hp with his 15% damage reduction to survive just as long. The fact that the monster heals for 1000 means you need to cast the spell 12 times to fill back that amount of hp where as the player needs to cast twice. (not actual numbers, but i hope you get the point. the actual numbers are not necessarily better).

3- In theory, a rank 5 monster is equal to a player. It's absolutely bullshit, for starter, but it also has the issue that to get to rank 5, you need to kill players (that are 3 times stronger than you).  So you don't have a choice, but to grind.

4- Monsters AE ability are max 2-3 targets. Human abilities, with traits, are often 6-10. It doesn't scale very well when you start adding more players to the mix because they can hit more of the charging pack at once.

5- Keep taking : monsters have 1 pseudo tank (768 armor, ~10% avoidance) who also happens to be the healer. All you need is 1 hunter in the back assisting the keep lord and your monsters are going to die.

6- Hunter improved trap. 1 fuckin minute root with 25% chance of getting out of it when being hit. Play a reaver or a warg and have fun sitting there looking at your thumb.

7- Loremaster mez/AE snare/AE stun. Lets say you eventually got out of the trap, the loremaster is going to make sure you don't actually have to play your character.

8- Loremaster pet, captain pet. Very easy to send one toward a group of monster and put them all in combat mode. As you can remember, monsters have more hp but take more damage. Add the fact that you're stuck in combat mode all your life and that your few healers have crappy heals compared to your amount of hp. Basically, as a reaver, i was drinking potions every time i could and it was still not enough to keep me alive. I spent my life rooted/stunned/etc at 2000/4400 hp, waiting for the next tick to get 5 more hp

9- Player bragging rights. The rating is calculated based on kills/deaths. Therefore, most players don't want to die. Back in my time, you'd have groups of players on horse running the country for players alone or in duo. They'd CC one, kill the other and teleport back before any danger would appear. The ability to move around was perfect for their guerilla tactics. Since they didn't want to die, they would never fight outside of their keep with all the npcs around. Since you cannot heal as a monster, the npc eventually do most of the job over time and the players just need the killing blow.

10- To gain ranking as a creep, you're better off solo. This leads to crappy communication, warg gank squads and things like this. I played a few nights in a raid, getting 1 infamy pt per kill. The next night, i played as a coward solo and made almost 2 ranks in the process. This doesn't lead to sound tactics when the only way to progress is to play by yourself.

Anyway, there are tons of problems with the pvp.
But the 2 most important ones are:
1- pvp needs to be fair or the player needs to at least think he has a chance to keep on fighting (see most of shadowbane servers for an example of what happens when you have no chance)
2- crowd control, loss of character control has to be very limited. Having diminishing returns would already help, but getting rid of most of it is a better solution for decent pvp. Being rooted for 1 minute or perma stunned is one of the worst pvp mecanic you can get.
Hound
Terracotta Army
Posts: 162


Reply #37 on: June 27, 2007, 03:52:36 PM

I have not made a Monster character since beta 2, however there seems to be a a lot of legitimate complaints from the creeps. Turbine realizes there are some serious issues and one of the Devs started this thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=72883 yesterday and it has grown to 11 pages as of the time of this post.

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025


Reply #38 on: June 29, 2007, 05:28:51 AM

I'm not sure where you're pulling 75% reduction from but my guardian at 47 has about 49%. With the dimishing returns I've noticed as I push closer to 50% I highly doubt anyone running around at 75%, and certainly no other class other than a guardian. Meanwhile the creeps I see running around have way more than double my hp and my build is mostly vitality/morale.



gravdiggr
Terracotta Army
Posts: 43


Reply #39 on: June 29, 2007, 09:29:10 AM

I don't remember the exact numbers, but with your buffs to block/parry, you can have around 40-45% avoidance (block/parry/evade) and around 30-35% mitigation against common. These numbers were from beta, i haven't played a guardian in release, but that was pretty much the max damage reduction you could get back then.

Having double the hp doesn't mean much when you get hit for more than double damage and you don't have double the healing
pxib
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4701


Reply #40 on: June 29, 2007, 01:52:58 PM

I have not made a Monster character since beta 2, however there seems to be a a lot of legitimate complaints from the creeps. Turbine realizes there are some serious issues and one of the Devs started this thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=72883 yesterday and it has grown to 11 pages as of the time of this post.

I think this about covers it:
Quote from: Developer
Quote
My question is if monsters are designed to be weaker what is the basis on which you modeled it after?
The basis comes from the great many battles described in the books where hordes of baddies were slaughtered by the good guys.

Creeps are player-controlled foozles... and like regular foozles they exist to be slaughtered by the good guys. Unlike regular foozels these ones are controlled by suckers who pay $15 a month for the priveledge.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603

tazelbain


Reply #41 on: June 29, 2007, 02:01:05 PM

This is why I have not bought this game. Unfortunately by the time they fix this, they'll have ruined the game's itemization with raids

"Me am play gods"
CmdrSlack
Contributor
Posts: 4388


WWW
Reply #42 on: June 29, 2007, 02:24:48 PM

This is why I have not bought this game. Unfortunately by the time they fix this, they'll have ruined the game's itemization with raids


rolleyes

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603

tazelbain


Reply #43 on: June 29, 2007, 02:45:46 PM

Eek!

(Just because I had not seen it before.)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 09:32:19 PM by tazelbain »

"Me am play gods"
CmdrSlack
Contributor
Posts: 4388


WWW
Reply #44 on: June 29, 2007, 04:20:14 PM

That's a nifty one.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Johny Cee
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3454


Reply #45 on: June 29, 2007, 08:17:40 PM

I have not made a Monster character since beta 2, however there seems to be a a lot of legitimate complaints from the creeps. Turbine realizes there are some serious issues and one of the Devs started this thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=72883 yesterday and it has grown to 11 pages as of the time of this post.

I think this about covers it:
Quote from: Developer
Quote
My question is if monsters are designed to be weaker what is the basis on which you modeled it after?
The basis comes from the great many battles described in the books where hordes of baddies were slaughtered by the good guys.

Creeps are player-controlled foozles... and like regular foozles they exist to be slaughtered by the good guys. Unlike regular foozels these ones are controlled by suckers who pay $15 a month for the priveledge.

The design has merit,  Turbine just has to swing the balance a bit.  For a level 50 creep,  you just have to roll a regular character and get yourself to a dark scrying pool.  No grinding, outfitting, running quest after quest, or any of that jazz.

You can buy plenty of enhancement using destiny points accumulated while leveling your regular character,  and creeps are fairly effective as raiders/gankers hitting freeps when the freeps are doing something else.

I've heard plenty of complaints from freeps trying to quest/run tasks that keep getting jumped and slaughtered by groups of creeps.  In a standup, on your toes fight,  creeps are just massively inferior.

I'd like to see creeps buffed a bit, but still inferior,  with very little grind to optimize abilities so they're basically set out of the box.
Tannhauser
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4436


Reply #46 on: June 30, 2007, 09:25:42 PM

I really think Turbine has an unpolished gem here pvp wise.  MvP, if done right, could be what it takes to boost subs.  Brilliant idea Turbine, now lets see some kick ass improvements.
Triforcer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4663


Reply #47 on: July 02, 2007, 11:03:13 AM

I'm tempted to get this game (once I'm back in civilization and off the farm dialup comp) just to make a warg stealth ganker.  As always, the beauty of stealth gankage is that no matter how weak you are, another player with 1% health still just has 1% health!

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11124

a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country


WWW
Reply #48 on: July 08, 2007, 03:03:16 AM

From the last Dev chat:

Quote
<Cabouse> Question: What improvements to monster play have there been thought up for future content?
<Orion-Turbine> Enhancements to monster play are ever evolving. In the next update, you will see the inclusion of trolls on the monster side of the battle and rangers on the player side of the battle. The losing side will have the ability to get these elite units into the field and in early testing we have found that people are really enjoying the trolls and rangers.
<Orion-Turbine> Add to that some major changes to the dynamic nature of the Ettenmoors and you will hopefully soon see a nice improvement to things for the monster faction and a little more dread cralwing into the hearts of Freeps everywhere.

A step in the right direction?

Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15160


Reply #49 on: July 13, 2007, 12:14:52 PM

I'm thinking too little, too late. By the time they actually get the incremental fixes in, most creeps are going to have given up. It's already happened on my server: few creeps, and so also few freeps except for farmers after the resources for crafting.
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11124

a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country


WWW
Reply #50 on: July 13, 2007, 05:10:05 PM

The good with creeps is that they are 50 already. It's never too late to pick them up again.

Pages: 1 [2] Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Lord of the Rings Online  |  Topic: So anyone else tried monster play yet?  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC