Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...?

[Nonentity]

Title says it all, really.

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Red 5 Studios, an online video-game developer led by members of the team behind the wildly popular "World of Warcraft" game, said on Monday it has raised $18.5 million in venture capital.

The funding from Benchmark Capital and Sierra Ventures comes as a rise in high-speed Internet usage in the United States and elsewhere fuels interest in online gaming -- the standard mode of play in many Asian countries.

"World of Warcraft" from Vivendi's Blizzard Entertainment provides an online world in which thousands of players compete simultaneously. Revenue comes from game sales of about $20 per unit, subscription fees of some $15 per month, and downloads of add-on content.

The game has obliterated former usage records with a subscriber base of more than 6.5 million globally, and forced U.S. video-game publishers to rethink online gaming as development costs climb.

In the United States, games for consoles like Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s
PlayStation 2 and Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox 360 are dominant. Top titles sell for $50 to $60, and play time is often measured in hours rather than months.

Mark Kern, Red 5's chief executive and former team leader on "World of Warcraft," said his California-based game studio will create original games for online game operators and distributors -- much as Pixar Animation Studios did in the movie world with its animated films such as "Toy Story" and "Finding Nemo."

"Pixar really showed that you can have a content-focused strategy," Kern said of the animated film maker that is now owned by the Walt Disney Co.

Red 5 is already working on a massively multiplayer online game for Webzen Inc. The South Korean company is financing the development of the game, which Webzen will distribute.

Online games are currently sold at retail outlets or via Internet download.

Benchmark General Partner Bill Gurley predicted that massive online games like "World of Warcraft" will become a dominant form of entertainment.

"Major media companies are paying attention in a major way," said Gurley, whose firm's investments have included "Second Life" virtual reality game maker Linden Lab and mobile game maker Jamdat, which sold to video game publishing giant Electronic Arts Inc. earlier this year for $684 million.

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/wr_nm/financial_videogames_dc_3

I was still a GM for WoW when the first batch of people left ship to go to NCSoft. The head of the customer service area (he was 'Maleki' on the forums, IE Maleki the Pallid in Stratholme was named after him), who happened to be in my guild at the time, jumped ship to NCSoft.

How many other people are going to siphon off of the freight train that is WoW onto other projects?

[Merusk]

I think they missed a few opportunities to whore the "Hey I worked on WOW" angle in that release.  Then again, when you can't point to anything else, I guess using some of the shine of your former employer is all you've got.

Anyone know what Team Mark Kern actually worked on, and what he was really responsible for?

ed. pwnd by spelling.

[Trippy]

As the article said, Mark was the Team Lead on WoW. That meant, among other things, that he put together the WoW team at a time when all the Blizzard executives thought it was a bad idea (i.e. WoW basically started as a skunk works project) and to hear him talk about it lead many if not most of the important design decision meetings. So he was sort of more than just a Producer since he was involved with design decisions but he also wasn't a full blown Director since he wasn't dictating the design just leading the discussions.

As for missing a few opportunities, check out the Red 5 bios and you'll see that a lot of the key WoW people joined Red 5 so while you were probably being facetious they in fact did underplay the WoW card. Some of their earlier press releases played up the three co-founders Blizzard background's a lot more.

[Nonentity]

As the article said, Mark was the Team Lead on WoW. That meant, among other things, that he put together the WoW team at a time when all the Blizzard executives thought it was a bad idea (i.e. WoW basically started as a skunk works project) and to hear him talk about it lead many if not most of the important design decision meetings. So he was sort of more than just a Producer since he was involved with design decisions but he also wasn't a full blown Director since he wasn't dictating the design just leading the discussions.

As for missing a few opportunities, check out the Red 5 bios and you'll see that a lot of the key WoW people joined Red 5 so while you were probably being facetious they in fact did underplay the WoW card. Some of their earlier press releases played up the three co-founders Blizzard background's a lot more.

Huh, didn't know that.

Sounds like a decent business model, though. I'd trust the guys that headed the WoW project to slice off a chunk of the pie more then a newcomer.

[Trouble]

They better make a good game or there will be beatings.

[Jayce]

If nothing else, we get to learn whether the Blizzard charmed life is due to people, management, process, or something else.

[angry.bob]

So, do you guys think this talent drain accounts for why WoW has turned into the sad, directionless clusterfuck that it has in the last month? I mean, every aspect of everything related to the game has taken a complete shit in the last month, including the new cinematic. The one good thing they did (new pvp), they not only fucked for no good reason pissing everyone off, they managed to create a terrible problem doing it. And then they refuse to roll back and instead expect everyone to check every character they have and submit a report. WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately.

[geldonyetich]

Yes, yes, WoW's doom is slowly coming into place.  <arches fingers>

[Threash]

So, do you guys think this talent drain accounts for why WoW has turned into the sad, directionless clusterfuck that it has in the last month? I mean, every aspect of everything related to the game has taken a complete shit in the last month, including the new cinematic. The one good thing they did (new pvp), they not only fucked for no good reason pissing everyone off, they managed to create a terrible problem doing it. And then they refuse to roll back and instead expect everyone to check every character they have and submit a report. WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately.

Im sure they'll keep laughing once wow blows 10 mill subs.

[Rhonstet]

WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately.

From a great distance, crying can look like laughter. 

[angry.bob]

Indeed, there is no greater barometer of quality than numbers, as evidenced by McDonald's, Walmart, or a hundred other examples of crap pandered to the subhuman lowest common denominator. I'd be surprised if WoW breaks 10 million subs unless no one puts out another (decent) MMO next year - and even then I'd still be surprised. Despite trying to reach the mainstream with cute Office Space ads and South Park, they're not going to draw in many more people who aren't already involved in the genre. Add in people leaving the game through natural attrition, disgust over pointless insults like the honor nerf, disgust at poor QA like a sloppy, rushed nerf randomly deleting one out of every eight object owned by players, or poor the poor CS in the way they've handled them both. the number of people seeing that ad during CSI and saying 'HOLY CRAP I HAVE TO GO TO THE WORLD OF AZEROTH TO ESCAPE DRUDGERY" and then actually staying with it past the free period is nowhere near the number of people seeing it and saying "What nerd crap for psycho nolifes was that?" or "What was he originally playing in that scene?"

Besides, they could have 20 million and it still wouldn't change that their QA, CS, art, design, and pretty much every other aspect of their company except raw sub numbers is in the toilet compared to where it was a year ago.

[Trippy]

So, do you guys think this talent drain accounts for why WoW has turned into the sad, directionless clusterfuck that it has in the last month? I mean, every aspect of everything related to the game has taken a complete shit in the last month, including the new cinematic. The one good thing they did (new pvp), they not only fucked for no good reason pissing everyone off, they managed to create a terrible problem doing it. And then they refuse to roll back and instead expect everyone to check every character they have and submit a report. WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately.

Blizzard has been treating their WoW customers like crap from day 1 so that's nothing new. Fortunately for them they have no serious competition so they can get away with that. Red 5 was founded in 2005 -- the press release was just about their latest round of funding -- so it's kind of hard to attribute any recent problems in the game to people having left for Red 5 a year or so ago. I do believe, though, that the lackluster BC cinematic is at least partially due to the former cinematics director leaving.

[El Gallo]

No, I think that it is unlikely that some developers starting a new company over a year ago is the reason that the last patch had a lot of technical problems. 

[HaemishM]

No, I think that it is unlikely that some developers starting a new company over a year ago is the reason that the last patch had a lot of technical problems. 

You can blame that on the sun coming up.

[El Gallo]

Shazam!

[angry.bob]

over a year ago  

Ah, okay. Based on the thread title and the quoted portion I thought it was more recent, as in the last few months. A better thread title might have been "Red 5 raises 18.5 million". *shrug*

[Trouble]

From my perspective Blizzard has a pretty firm direction on where they want to take things, and seem to have a firm grip on how to get there. They've made changes that have angered a lot of customers, but on the other hand every major change you make to a game pisses people off and I think it shows that they do indeed have a specific vision if they're willing to make these changes as they have. I have not seen any specific lack of quality of what they've done compared to anything they've done in the past. A mix of good, bad, and bugginess that is as usual better than what most other games are able to produce. Seems normal to me.

[Righ]

I think it shows that they do indeed have a specific vision

There's that V word again. This can't lead to anything good.

[Trouble]

Maybe Vision is a loaded word. Perhaps "direction" is more appropriate. They have a certain direction they want to take parts of the game in and they seem to be doing a good job of it, even if some people don't like what that direction is.

[Jayce]

every major change you make to a game pisses people off

Though also, every major gust of wind pisses some people off (*cough*angry.bob)

[Nebu]

I think these people are in for a rude awakening when they discover just how much having "Blizzard" on the box meant to that game's success.

[Venkman]

Replace "Blizzard" with "SOE (of five years ago)". Same thing. The latter only had to change their customer relation practices and game design approach because someone else came along and handed them their shirt. Whether that was FFXI, GW or WoW is not really important. Other companies proved that better games and less antagonistic CSR are selling points.

Blizzard doesn't need fear someone else coming with 10mil subscribers. They need fear just another game of analagous style hitting the 3-4mil mark (no, I don't consider either Lineage analagous). Then you'll see them get all public with "under new management" signs about CSR and such.

But angry.bob, I think you're overestimating the importance of the current issues the game is experiencing. If as many people really cared as you think care, they'd be in trouble. But they're not. New people put up with what we suffered five years ago because if you like this sort of experience, WoW is a best in class offering. Where are these people going to go? EQ2? DAoC? CoH? In the future anyone here think TR or AoC to WAR are going to drag away millions?

Some have and will. But none of those offer the obvious mass-appeal alternative that is WoW, or they'd already be more popular. The Warcraft IP can only get people to come to the game. The game itself (and total experience) is what keeps them. And obviously those are working for people right now. There's a better chance of the next gen of players making Habbo or Maplestory more relevant through sheer mass of their numbers or average revenue generated per player than WoW getting dethroned by a new game specifically designed for us here.

[Strazos]

Really, I think part of the reason so many people love WoW is because it's their first MMO.

Lets think back people. What was your first MMO? How much crap did you put up with in that first game, compared to the newer offerings of today? Personally, if you don't count MU*s, EQ was my first MMO. I played it...a lot. And as a rogue in that game, I put up with an inordinate amount of shit in order to play it - but I didn't care, because I thought it was awwwwsome. Well, until I started raiding anyway. Then I thought the game was boring.

This phenomenon is interesting to observe in other people. Some time after I had quit playing the game, a few of my friends started to play. For them, it was their first MMO, but I had already played the game, in addition to a few others. They thought the game was fairly awesome, while I thought it was tired.

All the neophytes that have flocked to WoW? Most of them will follow the same pattern eventually.

[Rhonstet]

Really, I think part of the reason so many people love WoW is because it's their first MMO.

Lets think back people. What was your first MMO? How much crap did you put up with in that first game, compared to the newer offerings of today? Personally, if you don't count MU*s, EQ was my first MMO. I played it...a lot. And as a rogue in that game, I put up with an inordinate amount of shit in order to play it - but I didn't care, because I thought it was awwwwsome. Well, until I started raiding anyway. Then I thought the game was boring.

This phenomenon is interesting to observe in other people. Some time after I had quit playing the game, a few of my friends started to play. For them, it was their first MMO, but I had already played the game, in addition to a few others. They thought the game was fairly awesome, while I thought it was tired.

All the neophytes that have flocked to WoW? Most of them will follow the same pattern eventually.

I have to strongly disagree, but only with the first sentence.

If WoW was a game that followed the regular patterns of casual players eventually getting tired and moving to other games, then we should have seen other games becoming more popular.  I don't think what few metrics get collected bear that out.  What the metrics seem to say is that WoW is not only getting more people, it is keeping the ones it has for longer, at an impressive ratio.

People put up with more in the old games due to a simple lack of options.  You took crap because it was all that there was.  As more games opened, you had more people flitting from game to game.  Then WoW dropped the nuke by setting a high standard.  Suddenly a game exists that people don't want to leave, because the other games can't match the standard. 

[Strazos]

If WoW was a game that followed the regular patterns of casual players eventually getting tired and moving to other games, then we should have seen other games becoming more popular.  I don't think what few metrics get collected bear that out.  What the metrics seem to say is that WoW is not only getting more people, it is keeping the ones it has for longer, at an impressive ratio.

See the word I highlighted. First, let me ask something...can we agree that a sizeable portion of the WoW playerbase is playing a MMO for the first time?

If so, these players being newbies does not exclude them from being...hardcore. EQ may have been my first MMO, but I certainly didn't play it casually. True, a lot of the new players in WoW are casual players. But a lot of others are not. I believe the "WoW = New" factor has a lot to do with their numbers and retention. There are also other factors, such as branding (Warcraft, Blizzard) or polish (though I don't think it's as far-and-away better than, say CoH). But a ton of these people are going at an MMO for the first time - a lot of players hardly even know of other games outside of WoW. Sometimes you can even include games outside of the MMO medium.

[Venkman]

Exactly. WoW showed the world there were more people out there interested in a hardcore experience than previously believed. "Casual" and "diku" do not necessarily mix in the broad sense. Obviously, at specific levels, it can, but that's not really the overall trend (imho of course).

WoW being the first MMO for a lot of gamers doesn't exclude the fact that a lot of EQ (-esque) veterans are also there.

It's not a rigid adherance to one game, but it is mostly an intense interest in one type of game. Some of those folks will definitely migrate to LoTRO. Others who came to WoW for PvP may go to WAR. But it's all variations on a theme, the reason why games like Eve are and will for some time remain very niche in comparison to the aggregate experiences. They'll grow as the whole genre grows, but I never foresee a time when Eve-like games become the million-account games while diku is second-order. Even the hugely successful games now talked about here, like, say, Habbo, Maplestory, or Kartrider are fairly related to item-acquisition mechanics not wholly unlike WoW (just with different business models).

There's two reasons for that:

1) It's a successful business model.
2) It's successful because lots and lots of people like it.

[stray]

People would probably stick with Eve if the combat was more visceral, and if the vast amount of things you interfaced with weren't just text and numbers on a virtual stock market ticker.

I don't think that because it's more of a "world", then that's the reason it's outshined by dikus necessarily. The activities in a world can be simulatory and player driven, as well as highly attractive to gaming sensibilities at the same time. It's just a matter of how they're presented and "played".

And there is hope for that to happen eventually, I think. Some ideas just get off to a slow start. Look at educational games, for example. The first idea was probably just some drab program with animated flash cards. Kids didn't care one bit. But eventually, someone got smart and made a math game with a singing cowboy frog. And not only that -- a cowboy frog who presents those same old math questions in story-adventure-puzzle format. All of the sudden, kids are dying to learn their multiplication tables.

So it will be with virtual worlds.

Am I making sense..? No?

Anyways...

[angry.bob]

Exactly. WoW showed the world there were more people out there interested in a hardcore experience than previously believed.

This is exactly the wrong conclusion that people use WoW’s numbers to make. WoW isn’t popular because the post-60 game is raid, raid, and more raiding and people are hardcore. WoW is popular because the 1-59 game is fun and as casual than you can get. Up until you hit 60, you can literally log in for 10 minutes and make progress. Then at 60 they swap out that game for another one that’s vastly inferior. If the game had used the same design theory for levels 1-59 as they did for 60, the game would never have broke a million subscribers. So why do people stay? 1)All other current MMO* are less casual than WoW’s post-60 game from the minute you roll a character. 2) All other MMO* are far less visually appealing. And it’s a damn wide gap. 3)They’ve already spent X amount of time building social connections and don’t want to leave them. 4) Leveling alts from 1-59 is still funner than any other MMO currently available. I’m on my 8th one myself, 7 of which are over 55. It’s still more fun than anything else available. 5) I can name about 20 more reasons that have nothing to do with being “hardcore” and wanting to “work” at a game but there’s no point really.

The simple answer is that WoW keeps their numbers because as casual unfriendly it is past 60, there’s way around it, and even then it’s a much better time than anything else available by a factor of 10. Their design direction after 60 is still total shit, their CS is still shit, and their QA is still shit. I’m not in BC beta, but I’m willing to bet the new newbie zones are nowhere near the quality of the original ones. Why? Because the people who did those have probably left too, and the new ones were done by whatever twats are designing stuff now. A raid dungeon so big and l33t that it needs a flight path halfway through? What a fucking waste of resources.

Anyway, I have lots more to write, but my wife wants to go to the German festival downtown. 60 degrees in Northern Oho in December…. And people say there’s no global warming too…

[Modern Angel]

The Dranei and Blood Elf newbie zones are better by an exponential factor than their OG counterparts. And words can't describe how much better the post 60 instances are than anything else in the game.

[Margalis]

I think bob is dead on. If the entire game was the post 60 game it would have 1/10th the number of subcribers.

[Morat20]

I think bob is dead on. If the entire game was the post 60 game it would have 1/10th the number of subcribers.

Judging by the expansion, it appears the Devs note this. A lot more 5 and 10 man instances, the "big raid zone" only being 25 man. Dungeons with difficulty settings, so you can repeat content for better loot.

It looks like they're trying to make the endgame a lot more like the 1-59 game and opening up advancement (you advance via gear once you level cap, as usual) via PvP, raids, faction grinds, or running 5-mans. And even with the raids and instances, they're trying to cut down the required "time to advance" by breaking up raid zones into easier to digest parts.

[hal]

One has to wonder at what Blizzard actually is. After Diablo 2 Bliz north went away. And they weren't assimilated they left. Yet the warcraft titles were polished and cutting edge. By that I don't mean they were new thoughts but were very well done. WOW is the best at craftmanship we have seen yet. Is there a higher up bliz that is singing the it is done when its ready song? What does Blizzard mean and who is it? I am not sure what to pay attention to here. One could argue that a lot of talent would shine under the right direction. That the Dev's that left are better for the experience I would have to believe. But did the soul of Bliz leave?? I ask because I don't know.

[Margalis]

They have the process down. That is the key, and if you read between the lines it is clear that is what they excel in. Great ideas? Not really. Great technical execution? Not really.

Putting out products of a certain threshold of quality is an institutional ability, not an individual one. That's why staff turnover hasn't mattered. I'm sure there are some key people but the institution as a whole just knows how to get the job done.

[Morat20]

They have the process down. That is the key, and if you read between the lines it is clear that is what they excel in. Great ideas? Not really. Great technical execution? Not really.

Putting out products of a certain threshold of quality is an institutional ability, not an individual one. That's why staff turnover hasn't mattered. I'm sure there are some key people but the institution as a whole just knows how to get the job done.

Which goes back to my gripe a few months ago  -- software process matters. Institutional memory matters. Good Devs are vital, but unless you've got some formal process supporting them, they're not going to live up to their potential. It's not just for Devs -- you need management (lower and especially upper) to at least grasp why this is important.

Blizzard strikes me as a professional shop -- in a way a lot of games shops aren't. Too many gaming houses are still too fond of the "five friends in a garage" style of development. Banking too much on personal flair -- when gaming software has gotten to the point where no single person can really carry the game by himself. You might be the most kick-ass designer in the world, but ultimately you're relying on an engine someone else wrote to showcase your design, using art by another person, netcode by another, database design by yet another.....and then you've got management. Management can sandbag process far worse than designers.

If the guys that moved to Red 5 carried that process with them -- that professionalism -- then they'll do fine. Skill, talent and vision aren't enough -- it has to be married to a framework capable of delivering on that vision, that skill, and that talent.

Blizzard isn't a genius coder, or genius designer, or genius art guy. (They employ them, however!). Blizzard embodies a developmental process. They do want to hire the best -- skill matters too, obviously -- but in the end they have a design process that works far better than their competitors. I do wonder how they'd do with truly original ideas -- would Blizzard even attempt something like Spore? They prefer to refine and polish, distilling the ideas of others into a solid and fun gaming experience -- but they still do innovate. I just suspect true innovation is probably harder for them, which is probably harder on the Blizzard Devs.

Everything has to balance, I guess.

[Merusk]

The Dranei and Blood Elf newbie zones are better by an exponential factor than their OG counterparts. And words can't describe how much better the post 60 instances are than anything else in the game.

I haven't run the BC instances yet, but I concur on the Dranei and Blood Elf noob areas.  The Blood Elf one is now my favorite noob area in the game.