Bioware Austin.. damm more Dragons.. or Lightsabers?

[ashrik]

Do people really want this?

I for one would like more adventure/RPG like playstyle than whack-a-mole in a MMO.

Some of the best people I've known are moles. That I've whacked. You insult their memory, sir

Maybe people do want more single-player-esque story in their MMOs. I gotta admit, Tortage was pretty cool. Yeah I liked it. I don't want it to result in a super-instanced, RPG with a chat lobby-type game though.

That's pretty much what DDO did.  With predictable results.

Oh, snip-snap

[Venkman]

Do people really want this?

I for one would like more adventure/RPG like playstyle than whack-a-mole in a MMO.

That's pretty much what DDO did.  With predictable results.

Yes, but that was an MMO worldbuilder trying to make an RPG. Bioware is approaching the same result from the other side with a different background. I'd put my money on them in the same way I should have guessed an outsider like Blizzard would make a better more market-appropriate casual fun-now instead of fun-later MMO than the established SOE.

[Endie]

Do people really want this?

I for one would like more adventure/RPG like playstyle than whack-a-mole in a MMO.

That's pretty much what DDO did.  With predictable results.

Yes, but that was an MMO worldbuilder trying to make an RPG. Bioware is approaching the same result from the other side with a different background. I'd put my money on them in the same way I should have guessed an outsider like Blizzard would make a better more market-appropriate casual fun-now instead of fun-later MMO than the established SOE.

I really don't know to what extent the basic premise there is true.  For one thing, it's really not the same Bioware: they've pretty much created a unit for this with a lot of outside hiring.  Maybe their corporate culture can overcome that.  We'll see.

Also, as I'm not alone in mentioning, a lot of recent Bioware stuff was lazy, and not a million miles away from MMO gameplay.  Mass Effect planets were like bleak, bland, 1990s procedurally-generated landscapes, and the storyline boiled down to pretty much one decision, tacked on right at the end and no more complex than one of the original Wing Commander mission succeed/fail branches.  KOTOR had masses of tedious, unexciting cityscapes through which you had to to repeatedly run, run, run, and with NPCs that acted exactly like MMO ones in their dialog responses.

[ashrik]

I really don't know to what extent the basic premise there is true.  For one thing, it's really not the same Bioware: they've pretty much created a unit for this with a lot of outside hiring.  Maybe their corporate culture can overcome that.  We'll see.

Also, as I'm not alone in mentioning, a lot of recent Bioware stuff was lazy, and not a million miles away from MMO gameplay.  Mass Effect planets were like bleak, bland, 1990s procedurally-generated landscapes, and the storyline boiled down to pretty much one decision, tacked on right at the end and no more complex than one of the original Wing Commander mission succeed/fail branches.  KOTOR had masses of tedious, unexciting cityscapes through which you had to to repeatedly run, run, run, and with NPCs that acted exactly like MMO ones in their dialog responses.

Ouch. Didn't think of it like this.

Speaking of which, to what extent is this new team anything like the Bioware we know? Aside from the CEOs or whomever, is there any more relation to Bioware than the name? I don't want to set myself up for a wonderfully wrapped gift box that's filled with random shit. How much Bioware is there in this new office?

[schild]

How much Bioware is there in this new office?

You're asking the wrong question.

[Hayduke]

So have you guys realized that Bioware Austin is neither Lucasarts or Bioware yet? I mean what did you expext from the unholy child of old SOE Austin and Wolfpack?

I thought most of Wolfpack went to Stray Bullet Games.

Nevertheless must you be so negative?  If you're a glass is half empty kind of guy I'm sure you can bemoan the lack of Bioware.  But I'm more of a glass is half full kind of guy so I'll rejoice in the lack of Lucasarts.

[EWSpider]

I would actually argue that real time combat is one of Bioware's biggest strengths. They have tons of experience making actiony hybrid systems out of what has traditionally been a turn based genre -- that's a quality of nearly all of their games. They do not, however, have any (historical) experience with sophisticated network architecture, any semblance of class balance, and yeah non-combat stuff.

I'm pretty sure this is the game they licensed the Hero Engine for, which is actually a complete MMO infrastructure.

[Ratman_tf]

Online games and Star Wars' IP were not meant to be mixed. Online games should offer players some small provision to express themselves, and IP in which everything is considered sacred by the owner isn't the best setting to enable that. This has the potential to sink Bioware.

If thats the case, wouldn't Bioware be better of using Mass Effect as there MMO platform instead?

I think it would be the smarter choice. This would let them focus on the fun and not worry about the lore. The IP is irrelevant to success, as SWG hath sheweth us.

[Lietgardis]

So have you guys realized that Bioware Austin is neither Lucasarts or Bioware yet? I mean what did you expext from the unholy child of old SOE Austin and Wolfpack?

I thought most of Wolfpack went to Stray Bullet Games.

Yeah, Stray Bullet and KingsIsle.

[schild]

So have you guys realized that Bioware Austin is neither Lucasarts or Bioware yet? I mean what did you expext from the unholy child of old SOE Austin and Wolfpack?

I thought most of Wolfpack went to Stray Bullet Games.

Nevertheless must you be so negative?  If you're a glass is half empty kind of guy I'm sure you can bemoan the lack of Bioware.  But I'm more of a glass is half full kind of guy so I'll rejoice in the lack of Lucasarts.

Lack of Lucasarts? What on earth would make you believe that?

Also, if I were glass half-full, I'd be running a site like mmorpg.com.

[Lantyssa]

Do people really want this?

I for one would like more adventure/RPG like playstyle than whack-a-mole in a MMO.

That's pretty much what DDO did.  With predictable results.

Unfortunately, at least early in it's life, the player was the mole being whacked.

I think the concept is fine, it's the execution which will matter.  And while I will probably be happy with it, as I was with SimBeru, I'm not sure Star Wars is the IP to do it with.

[ajax34i]

Consoles?

Are they making a "MMO" with Mass Effect - style communication?  No chat boxes?

[Dtrain]

Online games and Star Wars' IP were not meant to be mixed. Online games should offer players some small provision to express themselves, and IP in which everything is considered sacred by the owner isn't the best setting to enable that. This has the potential to sink Bioware.

If thats the case, wouldn't Bioware be better of using Mass Effect as there MMO platform instead?

I think it would be the smarter choice. This would let them focus on the fun and not worry about the lore. The IP is irrelevant to success, as SWG hath sheweth us.

The setting of the old republic is still viable for the same reason it allowed KOTOR to be a stand out game among Star Wars games: it was so far out of the imperial timeline that it could focus on the cool things about Star Wars, and not be dragged down by an overly obsessive fanbase and IP holder.

I think the for reals lesson that SWG (and KOTOR) showed us is that it sucks to make Star Wars games for Lucas Arts unless you trick them.

[HaemishM]

So have you guys realized that Bioware Austin is neither Lucasarts or Bioware yet? I mean what did you expext from the unholy child of old SOE Austin and Wolfpack?

I thought most of Wolfpack went to Stray Bullet Games.

Nevertheless must you be so negative?  If you're a glass is half empty kind of guy I'm sure you can bemoan the lack of Bioware.  But I'm more of a glass is half full kind of guy so I'll rejoice in the lack of Lucasarts.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. When speaking of the MMOG Medium, the glass may be half full, but that half is urine.

[Soln]

join me and other smart people in a glorious future on SWGEMU.COM

it works!  and it's SO EASY TO JOIN USE


Edit: for irony (beardy).  Still think its a worthy beardy achievement by these guys.  All sandbox, all the time.

Edit2:  emulator by these guys is pre-CU, pre-NGE.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

Umm, that ship sailed about 30 days after the launch in 2003 for 99.9% of the people that post here.

[Surlyboi]

Careful, you've still got some NGE spooge in your hair. IOW, projection, thy name is Gutboy Barrelhouse.

[Venkman]

Consoles?

Are they making a "MMO" with Mass Effect - style communication?  No chat boxes?

No idea, filed in the same category of unknowns as other important things like combat, game system and whether those graphics are close to representative 

I only earlier extrapolated the console opportunity based on the 1up article about them saying "we're considering it" for both WAR and TOR.

I really don't know to what extent the basic premise there is true. 

Yea me too. Dunno how much the corporate culture of Bioware is going to result in a better RPG. But I only mentioned it because it is the polar opposite of Blizzard's approach to MMOs. They may or not be able to instill what successes they have had on this new group. Whatever optimism I have for this title is entirely about the company name in the hopes that matters.

(*queue schild saying 'it won't' with appropriate uncomfirmable implied insiders knowleged here*)

[Tige]

Dunno how much the corporate culture of Bioware......

I don't think there is separate culture at Bioware compared to any other dev house.

As evidenced by yesterday's release we see the same diseased approach from BioLucasWare as everyone else.  A dev team cobbled together from different houses making an absolutely worthless press release.  No information other than the attention whoring seen for so long now.  Announce a new cutting edge mmo with a bunch of CGI, choppy 15 seconds of game play and a bunch of promises then dodge even the most elementary questions.  Following that, open a slew of forums so all the fanbois can stroke egos until the release where upon the mmo neophyte learns there is no Santa Claus mystery build.

[Hayduke]

So have you guys realized that Bioware Austin is neither Lucasarts or Bioware yet? I mean what did you expext from the unholy child of old SOE Austin and Wolfpack?

I thought most of Wolfpack went to Stray Bullet Games.

Nevertheless must you be so negative?  If you're a glass is half empty kind of guy I'm sure you can bemoan the lack of Bioware.  But I'm more of a glass is half full kind of guy so I'll rejoice in the lack of Lucasarts.

Lack of Lucasarts? What on earth would make you believe that?

Well, ugh.  That's just fucking great.

[Ratman_tf]

Online games and Star Wars' IP were not meant to be mixed. Online games should offer players some small provision to express themselves, and IP in which everything is considered sacred by the owner isn't the best setting to enable that. This has the potential to sink Bioware.

If thats the case, wouldn't Bioware be better of using Mass Effect as there MMO platform instead?

I think it would be the smarter choice. This would let them focus on the fun and not worry about the lore. The IP is irrelevant to success, as SWG hath sheweth us.

The setting of the old republic is still viable for the same reason it allowed KOTOR to be a stand out game among Star Wars games: it was so far out of the imperial timeline that it could focus on the cool things about Star Wars, and not be dragged down by an overly obsessive fanbase and IP holder.

I think the for reals lesson that SWG (and KOTOR) showed us is that it sucks to make Star Wars games for Lucas Arts unless you trick them.

But it also removes some of the things that people look for in a SW game. How many fans (and why make a SW game at all if you're not willing to at least consider why it's a popular IP in the first place?) want the rebellion or clone wars trappings?

Can't speak for everyone, but for me the KOTOR setting is a strike against it for me.

[Stormwaltz]

So have you guys realized that Bioware Austin is neither Lucasarts or Bioware yet? I mean what did you expext from the unholy child of old SOE Austin and Wolfpack?

You've said that before, and I think I've said this before: BW Austin includes a number of BW Edmonton staffers who transferred to work on the game. No, I can't tell you how many, because I don't know how many. Also, they'd probably say it's a company secret or something. They include writers, tech designers, artists, animators, and engineers. The most senior that I know of offhand is designer James Ohlen, who's been with the company since Shattered Steel and was the guiding hand behind the Baldur's Gates.

[Margalis]

Who the staffers are is really a moot point now that we've seen the first screens and presentation.

I'll leave it at that.

[UnSub]

From the IGN Article linked above.

Twelve full-time writers have been working on the content for this game for years already. The writing department was the first priority when it came to staffing so these writers have been working on the game longer than anyone.

Gawd, I can see the 'walls of text' already.  

You know what I see? At least one internal announcement that the mission tech they thought they've have won't be ready in time, so 70% of the missions the writers have developed need to be redone from the very start.

Writing is easy. Development of systems to support that writing is hard. Hiring writers is a lot easier than hiring MMO developers, especially before NCsoft / Austin got a large injection of available talent.

But fans can say, "YAY the story is important! They've got WRITERS!" when it means very little in terms of content delivery.

[Triforcer]

I don't get the graphics hate.  I actually like the vaguely TF2ish look.  Whatever helps framerates more in mass battles, the better.  What exactly is the problem here?  That more than 5% of the computer owning population will be able to run the game? 

[UnSub]

I don't get the graphics hate.  I actually like the vaguely TF2ish look.  Whatever helps framerates more in mass battles, the better.  What exactly is the problem here?  That more than 5% of the computer owning population will be able to run the game? 

You forget that f13 will collectively write SWOR off as something that will never work, clamour to be in the group beta, rush to buy it at launch and then burn out in the first 30 days. At the moment, it's all about how it can't work.

... not that I think it SWOR will work as they've just publicly announced, but that's the pattern.

[Hayduke]

I don't know to me it's kind of the garish color schemes not necessarily that it's low tech which I'm fine with.  I imagine quite a bit can change.  But it looks kind of close to Phantasy Star Wars Online.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

I don't get the graphics hate.  I actually like the vaguely TF2ish look.  Whatever helps framerates more in mass battles, the better.  What exactly is the problem here?  That more than 5% of the computer owning population will be able to run the game? 

The hate has nothing to do with performance issues, it revolves around "looking cartoonish and WoW'ish". Having the lightsabres the size of a city sewer pipe did not help either. People are also comparing the concept art from SWG to TOR and see that the art style and quality of the SWG concept art was the art that actually made it into the game in large part. They fear that it will be the case in what they see in the TOR art.

IGN has the 3rd part of the interview today with the Art Director which looks to be interesting with all the uproar over the visual style of the game.

[Venkman]

You guys have seen the new Clone Wars series right? Before you talk about appropriateness to the IP, you might want to check out the latest iteration. Bioware isn't making this stuff up in a vacuum.

Most of the hate is as UnSub said: groupthink of the discerning taste. It's not right or wrong, it's just borne of experience with having played way too many of the same game in this medium. Lacking any substantive details about TOR, this is basically all about it not being SWG done right.

[schild]

this is basically all about it not being SWG done right.

Or maybe it's the fact that another company is putting a shitton of resources into a license that produces precisely dick in terms of fun. The lore, history and heritage of Star Wars tends to put people into a box when thinking about game design. It does nothing for the genre and probably never will. They should stick to turning it into tiny legos and other assorted collectathons and keep the massively and multiplayer bits far the fuck away.

I would rather have an Icewind Dale MMO. Shit, I'd rather have an NWN MMO. Ironically though, not from the Austin team. So maybe the SW IP is the perfect fit.

Edit: I recognize that some Star Wars titles, particularly some of the first person titles, brought the IP above the "shit" level. But the likelihood of such a revolution happening here is simply very small. More than that, having seen the screenshots and read what they call "design" in the PR, I don't think anyone here has to worry about this being The Game for them. Except Gutboy and WUA. But they're both crazy, so whatever.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

I am not crazy.

I found this guy defending the Bioware efforts, in a post that will be deleted shortly..............................

"stop freaking complaining the game is nothing like SWG if you look on video it kicks SWG's ass by far distance and besides you havn't played the game so dont talk to us about quests there may not be quests at all they might added new system to quests so it's funnier u noob stop fucking complaining that it will be bad orn ot you dont no shit about this game u piece of fuck when you played the game come and complain but dont you dare complain about it alredy u bitch, I fucking hate fags who does that get a life and realise PLAY THE GAME FIRST THE NJUDGE IT u idiot sigh anyone else wanna try me? go ahead try to insult me bitches i will just win this argument by far i no this game alot and its nothing like SWG i like the jedi-sith system in this game and none of you have played it so stfu and get on with it dont judge before seen."

[schild]

Heh. That's ripe for a dramatic reading on YTMND.

[Venkman]

this is basically all about it not being SWG done right.

Edit: I recognize that some Star Wars titles, particularly some of the first person titles, brought the IP above the "shit" level. But the likelihood of such a revolution happening here is simply very small.

I don't put you in the category of expecting SWG.  But I do agree with you about not expecting a revolution. An actual hugely compelling worth-dissecting SW MMO would be Force Unleashed the MMO. Say what you will about the game that launched recently, but from a pure visceral standpoint, it is way close to the Star Wars people expect, only missing the XvT component.

TOR meanwhile will just be another typical MMO. It's not going to be an experimental social/business sim. If they don't screw up combat and actually have the Hero's Journey stuff some expect just due to the name and some folks working on it, it'll be fine. Won't tilt any windmills, but games that do that are rare anyway, especially in a genre of sameness with exactly one breakout that is the exception to the general rule.

[Sky]

You forget that f13 will collectively write SWOR off as something that will never work, clamour to be in the group beta, rush to buy it at launch and then burn out in the first 30 days.

This. It's funny because it's true. You could add the bit about the inevitable What Went Wrong thread there at the end. Those are what I wait for to evaluate a game :) Kept me out of AoC, thanks f13!

[WindupAtheist]

I don't think anyone here has to worry about this being The Game for them. Except Gutboy and WUA. But they're both crazy, so whatever.

Which one of us had the good sense to stay well away from SWG? Was it you? Whoops, no it wasn't!

Twitch.