PS3 Q&A Thread

[stray]

This AVS thread and the linked articles have some excellent information. On the graphics front the fact that the PS3 has 256MB dedicated to the GPU and 256MB dedicated to the PPE is actually inferior in many ways to the 512MB unified memory of the 360. Further the 360's GPU is ATI's next gen r600 piece which is by all measures superior in almost every way to the PS3's Nvidia part - essentially a 7800GTX.

I'm mostly ignorant about a lot of this stuff, but I was under the impression that one couldn't directly compare the PS3 and 360 GPU's, since the CPU plays a significant part in the PS3's capabilities as well. Nor is the RSX a 7800 really. Faster clock speed than what's in the PC market, completely different bus (which in turn involves the Cell and main memory to play a different role), and who knows what else.

Also, the OP in that AVS thread seems to want to ignore architecture differences, and judge everything from a component by component basis. Which is just wrong when comparing game consoles.

He admits to not even playing, let alone developing games. To some, that might seem like he's unbiased, but all it tells me is that he has completely different priorities on how to assess the hardware in these machines. I've seen other articles that sound just as impressive as his, and say completely opposite things. Everyone can play the disinfo game.

[squirrel]

The OP in the AVS thread is one of the least interesting posters in that thread. It's a long thread, but some very knowledgeable people post in it and there are links to some very detailed technical analysis of the two systems.

Particularly interesting is some benchmarks of the two video subsystems.

All of which is beside the point I was trying to make - the PS3 will have some kick-ass games for sure. It has a powerful architecture for sure. Some developers will do amazing things with it for sure. And none of these positives will be influenced by the high volume BluRay disc at all really because:

a). More storage is only good really for cutscenes and textures. The PS3 does not really have any more (and in fact has less) headroom for high rez textures than the 360 does.

b). Most of the developers will be doing cross platform games and won't bother with any additional material to fill the bluray's capacity.

The PS3 is not particularly more powerful than the 360 for Graphics. Theoretically it should be very good at AI, physics, encoding/decoding and that sort of thing.

[Trippy]

This AVS thread and the linked articles have some excellent information. On the graphics front the fact that the PS3 has 256MB dedicated to the GPU and 256MB dedicated to the PPE is actually inferior in many ways to the 512MB unified memory of the 360. Further the 360's GPU is ATI's next gen r600 piece which is by all measures superior in almost every way to the PS3's Nvidia part - essentially a 7800GTX.

No the Xbox 360 does not have an R600 in it cause that would be like unpossible since the R600 (still) isn't out yet. The Xbox 360 GPU does have the unified shader architecture which the R600 will have that the PS3's GPU does not have.

[stray]

The OP in the AVS thread is one of the least interesting posters in that thread. It's a long thread, but some very knowledgeable people post in it and there are links to some very detailed technical analysis of the two systems.

Particularly interesting is some benchmarks of the two video subsystems.

All of which is beside the point I was trying to make - the PS3 will have some kick-ass games for sure. It has a powerful architecture for sure. Some developers will do amazing things with it for sure. And none of these positives will be influenced by the high volume BluRay disc at all really because:

a). More storage is only good really for cutscenes and textures. The PS3 does not really have any more (and in fact has less) headroom for high rez textures than the 360 does.

b). Most of the developers will be doing cross platform games and won't bother with any additional material to fill the bluray's capacity.

The PS3 is not particularly more powerful than the 360 for Graphics. Theoretically it should be very good at AI, physics, encoding/decoding and that sort of thing.

Fair enough. Maybe BD storage doesn't mean much for this generation of gaming, but if it does, then at least a developer can count on it being on all PS3 systems. There aren't constraints and worries about which users have or don't have what, like in the case of the 360 (or say, the PS2 and the Final Fantasy hard drive). Even the Wii, though underpowered, presents a clearer situation than the XBox.

I like the PS3 because it doesn't shortchange future possibilities in any significant way. Both models have BD, both have hard drives, both have motion sensing, both have Bluetooth, both have gigabit ethernet, etc.. Any extensions to the hardware can be done through minor peripherals and input devices. There's a lot to work with right out of the box.

[squirrel]

This AVS thread and the linked articles have some excellent information. On the graphics front the fact that the PS3 has 256MB dedicated to the GPU and 256MB dedicated to the PPE is actually inferior in many ways to the 512MB unified memory of the 360. Further the 360's GPU is ATI's next gen r600 piece which is by all measures superior in almost every way to the PS3's Nvidia part - essentially a 7800GTX.

No the Xbox 360 does not have an R600 in it cause that would be like unpossible since the R600 (still) isn't out yet. The Xbox 360 GPU does have the unified shader architecture which the R600 will have that the PS3's GPU does not have.

I'm lazy and I just don't care that much so i'll take the lazy way out and simply throw one quote out from here. You can choose to believe that the Xenos chip has just the shaders in common with the R600. Most people who've read up on it would disagree, but you're welcome to your opinion. It's not a complete R600 certainly but it is essentially the same core chipset, not just the unified shader capability.

"This GPU here inside the Xbox 360 is literally an early ATI R600, which when released by ATI for the pc will be a Directx 10 GPU. Xenos in a lot of areas manages to meet many of the requirements that would qualify it as a Directx 10 GPU, but falls short of the requirements in others."

[squirrel]

There aren't constraints and worries about which users have or don't have what, like in the case of the 360 (or say, the PS2 and the Final Fantasy hard drive). Even the Wii, though underpowered, presents a clearer situation than the XBox.

I like the PS3 because it doesn't shortchange future possibilities in any significant way. Both models have BD, both have hard drives, both have motion sensing, both have Bluetooth, both have gigabit ethernet, etc.. Any extensions to the hardware can be done through minor peripherals and input devices. There's a lot to work with right out of the box.

Um yes. A console released 8 weeks ago is more future proof than a console released 12 months ago. Surprise? I don't know. In 2009 when the next Xbox comes out it will be way ahead of the PS3 and Wii in capabilities/features. Not sure what the point here is.

[stray]

That the PS3 will be in the cheaper, yet still impressive, territory that the Wii and XBox enjoy now.

With, more than likely, an equally impressive gaming catalog.

[EDIT]

And better backwards compatibility to boot. Whatever Microsoft releases next, it'll surely fuck up in this department even more than before.

Or maybe it won't be a fuckup at all. It'll probably be intentional.

[squirrel]

I don't own a PS3 but I'm suprised to hear it's BC being referenced in any sort of positive light. I've read a lot of negative stuff about it's backward compatibility so far. But yes, the cycle of console life will continue. I'll get a PS3 later as a BR player. That's the kind of thing the cell will excel at. Oh and there might be a good game or two. But it's not going to be a PS2/Xbox situation, no matter how hard Sony prays.

[stray]

By the way (to get back to BD games):

Resistance looks every bit as good as Gears of War, but lasts longer simply because of Blu-Ray storage (22 gigs, I think). That's a good thing.

It's not necessarily a better game than GoW (from what I can tell), but it's a good example of the advantages that Blu-Ray offers. If the 360 had the same advantage for GoW, nobody would downplay it. Nobody would talk shit. Length and content is probably the one thing everyone wants more of out of a game like GoW.

..

This also makes me wonder about exclusive content in future titles like GTA IV - a game which definitely could use as much storage as possible. Microsoft is touting "exclusive XBL content" for the upcoming GTA IV (on a system with precious hard drive space to begin with), while the PS3 versions will have the advantages of larger media capacity, as well as hdd capabilties. I'll bet right now that the PS3 version will be better because of this.

[squirrel]

Resistance looks every bit as good as Gears of War, but lasts longer simply because of Blu-Ray storage (22 gigs, I think). That's a good thing.

You're the first person I've heard say this. I've played Resistance and I disagree completely. It's a good looking game. It's not as visually impressive as GoW. I'm not going to bother linking to the PS3 owner threads elsewhere that support this, suffice to say I think you're wrong on that point.

I agree that in some cases more content will be available to PS3 games, but then that wasn't Roac's original assertion at all was it? The original point was that BR was going to allow uber hidef content that the 360 couldn't have due to storage. That's simply not the case.

BTW in the next 360 spec thread there's a picture:



Rumours are a 360 refresh is coming with a smaller chipset, HDMI, 1080p output & 120Gig drive. I'd bet that the dvd drive is replaced with an HDDVD drive too. This still leaves a 2 tier situation (360 1st gen & 2nd Gen) for developers but  if it ships soon I think the margin of capabilities you reference will become pretty slim pretty fast.

[Yegolev]

I think the art has something to do with it, but there are real costs associated with learning to program a new dev kit, especially one with a CPU like Cell where your programmers need to learn all of the tricks that are a given in the single-CPU world.  The time spent learning how to program the PS3 is time not spent actually making a game for it.

[HaemishM]

That the PS3 will be in the cheaper, yet still impressive, territory that the Wii and XBox enjoy now.

No, it won't. The PS3 is $600 while the Wii is $250. It will not reach Wii levels of pricing EVER. The Wii will likely be sub-$200 by 2009, possibly Xmas 2008. It will never compete with the Wii on price, ever ever ever. The 360 will likely drop sub-$300 for the premium system around the same time. I don't see the PS3 dropping to sub-$400 until it's a dead machine unless Blu-Ray wins so handily the huge sales of Blu-Ray players make manufacture cheaper.

With, more than likely, an equally impressive gaming catalog.

Not necessarily. Not only has the 360 had a year's worth of extra time to build a catalog, it doesn't have developers scared to produce games for the system 1 month after release. The PS3 has that. With the PS3 games needing 500k sales to break even for the first year the games are likely to be slow in coming, meaning the 360 will have almost 2 years of headstart to build up a library. Sony has given away the advantage it had with the PS2 (library) in favor of some kind of elite cache and unpossible promised lifecycle. It's going to have to compete on things it never had to before, innovation, price and a DVD format war.

[stray]

That the PS3 will be in the cheaper, yet still impressive, territory that the Wii and XBox enjoy now.

No, it won't. The PS3 is $600 while the Wii is $250. It will not reach Wii levels of pricing EVER. The Wii will likely be sub-$200 by 2009, possibly Xmas 2008. It will never compete with the Wii on price, ever ever ever. The 360 will likely drop sub-$300 for the premium system around the same time. I don't see the PS3 dropping to sub-$400 until it's a dead machine unless Blu-Ray wins so handily the huge sales of Blu-Ray players make manufacture cheaper.

Geez, don't take me me too literally. No, it won't be as cheap as the Wii. I'm just saying it'll eventually be priced to the point where miserly consumers won't bitch about it.

Not necessarily. Not only has the 360 had a year's worth of extra time to build a catalog....

This comes down to taste, I guess, but I don't see the 360 doing that much better than the original XBox. Their exclusives are still tapping into the same console market I don't care a lot about. I see them as doing more damage to the PC than the Playstation really.

This still leaves a 2 tier situation (360 1st gen & 2nd Gen) for developers but  if it ships soon I think the margin of capabilities you reference will become pretty slim pretty fast.

If past consoles are any indicator, then no one is going to program for a second tier system. Except first parties -- but even then, barely. It's never worked before, why should it now? The best benefit will be more hard drive space for XBL, but that's it. They'd be better off just issuing out a new hard drive kit.

You're the first person I've heard say this. I've played Resistance and I disagree completely. It's a good looking game. It's not as visually impressive as GoW. I'm not going to bother linking to the PS3 owner threads elsewhere that support this, suffice to say I think you're wrong on that point.

I'm willing to concede that. I can't really say. I haven't even played GoW on my TV.

[stray]

I agree that in some cases more content will be available to PS3 games, but then that wasn't Roac's original assertion at all was it? The original point was that BR was going to allow uber hidef content that the 360 couldn't have due to storage. That's simply not the case.

My bad. I thought that was a big part of his point -- Not necessarily uber high def content, but more high def content.

As far as I know, so far only NBA 2K7 is 1080p native. I think Resistance, Sony's flagship launch title if anything, is 720p.

[Yegolev]

Resistance will only do up to 720p.

[stray]

I'm getting slaughtered in multiplayer btw. I haven't played an online thumbshooter in a while.

Cool maps though. They did a good job.

[EDIT]

Another thing...

I was messing around with Account Management and noticed an "Activate System" menu. So I activated the PS3 (there's another option for the PSP as well). It said it unlocked additional content (for the future, of course). What's that all about anyways? Something to do with DRM and future movie downloads maybe? The store already allows access to purchasable games, and it didn't need an activation.

[Velorath]

[EDIT]

Another thing...

I was messing around with Account Management and noticed an "Activate System" menu. So I activated the PS3 (there's another option for the PSP as well). It said it unlocked additional content (for the future, of course). What's that all about anyways? Something to do with DRM and future movie downloads maybe? The store already allows access to purchasable games, and it didn't need an activation.

I think that's actually for activating another PS3 if you have more than one around.

[stray]

Actually, it says:

Please select a device you want to activate or deactivate

Playstation 3 (This system)

PSP (Playstation Portable) (USB Connected)

You select one and then get this confirmation message:

By activating this system, you can download and play additional content

Activate (or "Deactivate" if you've already activated)

[Yegolev]

I have played two or three 8-way online matches and consistently came in last place.  My aim is to blame, of course; the leader almost invariably had the highest hit-percentage.

[stray]

Some old Midway titles (arcade versions) coming to the online service soon:

Mortal Kombat II
Gauntlet II
Joust
Rampage World Tour
Rampart
Championship Sprint

The Wii is geting Gradius. I'd probably trade all of those for that.

[stray]

Newest Silent Hill villain

[EDIT]

Actually that's the 360. Wrong thread. Heh.

[stray]

Umm....Supposedly Gamestop is offering a deal when you a trade in a PS2/Card/Controller/and cords you'll get $100 off a PS3. Anyone want to confirm that? [EDIT] Here's an ad.


Also, here's a horrible PS3 Euro commercial. 

[Strazos]

Looks legit. Honestly, we don't really know about the internet offers until someone brings in a printout. I've seen someone use an internet offer all of once.

[stray]

Resistance

Damn, this game could have easily been a must have if the first half of the game was like the second. Video (Viper's Nest level). The drab WWII-ish graphics are traded in for a more colorful sci-fi experience (wish I could take a screenshot of that level. It's a thing of beauty). Boss fights don't really come into play until halfway either. Vehicles aren't utilized that much either. Overall, I'd give it an 8.8 or something.

[Velorath]

So it was recently brought to my attention that the U.S. version of MotorStorm doesn't support split-screen gameplay.  See, apparently:

Rally Evolved dropped split-screen and we'll probably leave it that way for MotorStorm unless we get an overwhelming demand. Splitting all that high-def detail into two is a performance nightmare. However, the beauty of online consoles is that the game can change in the future and we can sit down with SCEE and say, 'Let's offer this for download - the fans want it'.

Split-screen racing requires compromised visual/aural fidelity to accommodate multiple simultaneous views of the environment. For our PlayStation 3 debut, we elected to spend our entire processing/rendering budget on a single view, relying on the more compelling online experience to provide multiplayer thrills...

In other words: "We were in a rush to get this game out and we chose graphics over gameplay, but maybe if you guys ask enough we'll put it in at somepoint *cough*notfuckinglikely*cough".

Seriously, this kind of thing is the epitome of the bullshit we'll be dealing with for this current gen of consoles and probably beyond.  We have one of the most fucking basic gameplay options for racing games left out because these fucks were in a hurry and didn't want to sacrifice the next-gen shiny graphics which will draw the sheep in.  Then we get the increasingly familiar "well these days we don't actually have to finish our games before release because we can just make you guys download shit later if we ever actually get around to developing it" bullshit that reminds one of how the console market is taking on some of the worst traits from the PC market.

I guess we're lucky we don't get the Japanese version of the game which didn't even have Online gameplay (and thus 0 multiplayer options).  They would have been better off leaving out Online play in the US version though and putting in splitscreen.  Driving games are just one of those genres that's a lot more fun to play in the same room as other people than it is to play online.

[stray]

games are just one of those genres that's a lot more fun to play in the same room as other people than it is to play online.

I agree. I'm still going to buy this though (since it's pretty rockin' as is), but I'll do my best to raise my voice at Sony too. 

[schild]

I've never played a single splitscreen game that I've really enjoyed. Ever. When they don't offer it, it just means I can get more friends to buy the game. Real Estate is king, and I'm not giving up 50% of it.

[Quinton]

I've never played a single splitscreen game that I've really enjoyed. Ever. When they don't offer it, it just means I can get more friends to buy the game. Real Estate is king, and I'm not giving up 50% of it.

Resistance was actually pretty fun four-player on a nice 1080P projector.   Crazy HDTV resolutions make split screen not so bad.  Playing something split 2x or 4x on NTSC is pretty painful.

-Q

[Velorath]

I've never played a single splitscreen game that I've really enjoyed. Ever. When they don't offer it, it just means I can get more friends to buy the game. Real Estate is king, and I'm not giving up 50% of it.

Perhaps you might understand though that those of us who actually like playing games with our friends/family in the same room and don't have multiple TV's and consoles set up, might actually appreciate split-screen in our games.

[schild]

Ok then, I'll be more specific. Splitscreen in Motorstorm would suck balls.

[Velorath]

I'll be more specific then.  Racing games suck to play online, and unless it's a deeper simulation style game like Gran Turismo, they suck to play single-player also.  I don't mind if it hurts the graphics a little bit to play split-screen, because driving games are just one of those genres I find more fun to play against other people in the same room.  If the game itself is such a piece of shit that the shiny hi-res graphics are it's only draw, so much so that they couldn't risk making them look worse in split-screen, then I'd say anyone buying this game should be prepared for a 3rd rate rush job that doesn't have much more replay value than the demo they've probably already played to death.

[stray]

While I wouldn't mind split screen, solo doesn't suck for me. As far as I can tell, the tracks are, coupled with the general chaos, pretty hard to master and fun.

Though I don't dislike racing solo in general. I like mastering tracks, getting turns just right with different setups and vehicles, etc, etc.. The Racing Genre as the Party Genre is not the be all end all for me. I can enjoy it on many levels.

Also, why do you think it's a piece of shit? Have you played the demo or the Jap version? Can you not get an idea from those at least? It's far more than just shiny. It's like ATV Off Road mixed with Burnout, and it's hard to even make it to the freakin' finish line. You care so much about other players, but it's the tracks that'll kick your ass the most.

Besides that, the reason some multiplayer features were rushed in Japan is that they generally do not care as much about that sort of thing. It's a big single player market. They could take that kind of chance.

[Velorath]

Also, why do you think it's a piece of shit? Have you played the demo or the Jap version? Can you not get an idea from those at least? It's far more than just shiny. It's like ATV Off Road mixed with Burnout, and it's hard to even make it to the freakin' finish line. You care so much about other players, but it's the tracks that'll kick your ass the most.

I think it's a piece of shit because they made an unnecessary sacrifice in gameplay all in the name of preserving their graphics.  I have played the demo (the downloadable one, not the one from the kiosks).  It's fun for a little bit, but without being able to play it offline its got 0 replay value for me.  I love games like SF Rush and more recently Burnout because any time my brother is in town, we can go over to my dad's place and all three of us can sit down and play those games for hours (that's also the only reason I ever play FPS games on consoles also).  Taking out the option of doing that because it might not end up looking as pretty is a shit excuse.  If this game came out a year from now one the PS3 has more titles, I'm sure nobody would give the game a second look.  As it is this game is just attracting attention because PS3 owners haven't had a anything to look forward to since Resistance.

[stray]

MotorStorm footage was one of the things that got me stoked about the PS3 back before launch. It's hardly filler material for me.

It might be filler material for you, but take a look at console forums and you'll find people have been expectant of this game for at least 6 months.

Resistance is filler material for me.

[Velorath]

It might be filler material for you, but take a look at console forums and you'll find people have been expectant of this game for at least 6 months.

Yes, they've been expectant of it because it's one of the handful of exclusives for the PS3 that's coming out in the near future and its got shiny graphics.  They're expectant of Heavenly Sword despite the fact that the dev team has only done one mediocre XBox game before this, and the lack of any sort of new demo for the game since E3.  They're expectant of Lair, which at least probably has the best chance of being a good game since I've got a fondness for Factor 5's Rogue Squadron stuff.  They're expectant of Warhawk which has lately been rumored to have a lot of development problems.  They're expectant of all these games because if these 4 in particular end up being less than great, their next shot at a killer exclusive for the PS3 is at the very end of the year with MGS4, or whenever DMC4 is released.