Matrix Online vs. World of Warcraft? Interesting...

[stray]

Correct, they are not sheep. They are worse than sheep. I've been dangling a number of great games in front of WoW playing friends' faces for two years now, for instance. They won't have any of it.

I don't know exactly what that is, but there's something wrong with it. It's beyond sheepdom, and beyond a mere liking for a game. It's borderline psychotic. It's Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It's fucking Jonestown.

[Merusk]

"I don't like it, so you all are fucked uP for liking it."

Your arguments get worse over time.  Just avoid the topic.

Wha? All computer games use math. And the vast majority of them still present different patterns and scenarios other than a diku does. That statement makes it seems like there's no other design choice than EQ or WoW.

At the level you boiled it down to?  "All you do is get the power up, stay alive while you kill things, then and hit the next level. It's crap." 

Buff > Pull > Tank > DPS > Heal > Ding

You can fit that model in part or whole to ANY game with combat. It's a gross oversimplification to the point it's not worth discussing.

[stray]

[edit] Fuck that, Merusk. I'm not biting.

I'll just say this: I know enough that you're a very exacting person, and seem to want every post be a treatise. I'm just not going to articulate everything to the extremes for you though. You know very well that I'm specifically addressing a hate for diku aggro management (and whatever kind of combat that entails). You don't have to twist shit here. It's unnecessary.

[stray]

Gah. Can't resist.

Perhaps you're reading my example wrong ("Buff > Pull > Tank > DPS > Heal > Ding").

I never said I had anything against a game with those elements. What I'm pointing out is that specific order of things. I said it's a routine, instead of a game. I'm still saying that. Once you figure out how to pull and tank, there's no puzzle or challenge left. Every encounter remains the same throughout the entirety of your experience. Rarely does the formula get mixed up, rarely do mobs do things that throw the players off -- People can always maintain that same basic strategy and, more or less, succeed.

That's a big difference, between say, a game that requires you to repeatedly block or avoid a monster until he gives you an opening in some kind of critical area. Say, for example, Rhino in Ultimate Spider-Man: You do not tank him. You don't even want to be hit once by him. You avoid his charges, avoid him when he hurls cars at you, and only at special times can you jump on his back to hit him in a soft spot. Rinse, repeat, until he falls down.

Or Mike Tyson's Punchout: Same principle. The Bald Bull. When he does that bull charge, you've got to time that stomach punch just right or you lose. And even more to the point: Every fighter fights you differently. You can't use the Bald Bull strategy on Piston Honda.

[lamaros]

Is Patriot Games better than Wuthering Heights?

[stray]

The Olivier version of Wuthering Heights will make a grown man cry. So to answer you question: No.

This isn't either/or though. This is game vs shit.

It's a game when different types of mobs or bosses lay the groundwork for how you must beat them (instead of the other way around). It's shit when you can just tread through the entire process treating every encounter the same.

It'd be a game, if, for example, undead type mobs fucked you up in undead specific ways....And when there's a specific way to beat them that your team has to figure out. It's not a game when undead mobs can be beaten the same as humans or the same as spiders and venom.

[lamaros]

The Olivier version of Wuthering Heights will make a grown man cry. So to answer you question: No.

This isn't either/or though. This is game vs shit.

It's a game when different types of mobs or bosses lay the groundwork for how you must beat them (instead of the other way around). It's shit when you can just tread through the entire process treating every encounter the same.

It'd be a game, if, for example, undead type mobs fucked you up in undead specific ways....And when there's a specific way to beat them that your team has to figure out. It's not a game when undead mobs can be beaten the same as humans or the same as spiders and venom.

You need filler though. You can't create content quickly and keep it interesting. They can do more with boss fights and instance areas though and, if the info comming from TBC is any indication, they are.

[stray]

Fair enough. I'm not sure how to reply to that.

Personally, I would prefer a more challenging and unpredictable game experience, which in turn, could possibly require the same amount of time that a "filler" experience does. Maybe even longer.

[Lantyssa]

That's a big difference, between say, a game that requires you to repeatedly block or avoid a monster until he gives you an opening in some kind of critical area. Say, for example, Rhino in Ultimate Spider-Man: You do not tank him. You don't even want to be hit once by him. You avoid his charges, avoid him when he hurls cars at you, and only at special times can you jump on his back to hit him in a soft spot. Rinse, repeat, until he falls down.

So a good game would be all Avoid, Avoid, Avoid, Smash, Rinse, Repeat?

I am sure you mean to mix this up so each encounter is a little different, but how many variations can we have?  Are all characters in a MMORPG supposed to be the same or should there be differences?  Do we want all players to be the same, if not, how can each have a chance to handle this encounter?

[Rhonstet]

So a good game would be all Avoid, Avoid, Avoid, Smash, Rinse, Repeat?

I am sure you mean to mix this up so each encounter is a little different, but how many variations can we have?  Are all characters in a MMORPG supposed to be the same or should there be differences?  Do we want all players to be the same, if not, how can each have a chance to handle this encounter?

It might well be.  Hit points are an overused simulation in MMOs.  No one has really been creative enough to think up anything else for MMOs yet.  A system that focused (at least partially) on defensive moves and counters could be part of the next round of fantasy-themed MMOs.

I can imagine a game where a class system makes different offensive and defensive options available.  For example, a classic 'fighter' class would focus on numerous hotkey parries and strikes, while a 'magic user' would have fewer strikes and parries, but more MMO-traditional spells.  And I'm sure other people can run with that same idea.

As for how many variations?  Well, how many styles of martial arts are there? 

[stray]

So a good game would be all Avoid, Avoid, Avoid, Smash, Rinse, Repeat?

Almost.....But not necessarily. Some scenarios could be played out where you have to avoid some kind of attack scheme until an opening presents itself, and other scenarios might require a certain attack combo from you that makes your opponent let his guard down in more lethal areas. As well as others..

And really, the sky's the limit. There are so many settings and combat styles imaginable that things would never really get old. A Bubba Fett fight in a Star Wars platformer could play out just like the Rhino fight from Spider-Man, for instance.....But yet, it wouldn't feel exactly like it. In that scenario, the basic idea could be having to take cover from Fett while he's rocketing and gunning you from the air......When he lands, you have a small opportunity to attack.

[Teleku]

Correct, they are not sheep. They are worse than sheep. I've been dangling a number of great games in front of WoW playing friends' faces for two years now, for instance. They won't have any of it.

I don't know exactly what that is, but there's something wrong with it. It's beyond sheepdom, and beyond a mere liking for a game. It's borderline psychotic. It's Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It's fucking Jonestown.

What games were these out of curiosity?

Anyways, I can understand you wanting more out of encounters other than the tanking thing, and would be happy to see newer MMOs try to improve on this for fights.  However, this is actually what you get with the high end instances ;) (at least the newer onces like AQ and Naxx.  Fuck you MC).  Boss fights have alot of variation and movement, often not relieing having a tank hold the agro somewhere the whole fight.  The raid often has to be fluid, avoiding the boss and staying alive till there is a time where he opens himself up to attack.  With the reduction of raids to 25 mans, Im sure this will only increase in BC raids.  Im pretty sure the 5 man instances will have better scripting as well for boss fights.  They have been getting more creative with their boss encounters with every new release it seems.

As for how many variations?  Well, how many styles of martial arts are there? 

Well, all martial arts just boil down to punch>Kick>block>Throw`ing things.  Some just do more of one than the other. ;)

[schild]

You don't want to request a list of games that are/were more interesting to play than WoW. More fulfilling too. it would be the equivalent of popping the seven seal. Suffice it to say, every gamer that is nearly exclusively playing WoW is missing out on what I consider to be the greatest period in gaming I've seen since the SNES.

[stray]

Well, all martial arts just boil down to punch>Kick>block>Throw`ing things.  Some just do more of one than the other. ;)

Not exactly. Martial Arts were founded on the idea of counter-attacking and response. Not initiation. It's about intercepting, and knowing when and how your opponent is projecting a move before he even does it.

It's pretty relevant to what we're talking about actually.

[Morat20]

Well, all martial arts just boil down to punch>Kick>block>Throw`ing things.  Some just do more of one than the other. ;)

Not exactly. Martial Arts were founded on the idea of counter-attacking and response. Not initiation. It's about intercepting, and knowing when and how your opponent is projecting a move before he even does it.

It's pretty relevant to what we're talking about actually.

SOME martial arts were founded on that. Some were founded as a form of exercise, or of meditation. Some focus on counter-attack or counter-punching (the tactical view that an attack leaves you vulnerable). Some on overwhelming offense. Some on misdirection, some on immobilization...

I think taste in video games, taste in books, taste in movies,  music, martial arts, pretty much anything-- all the same thing. You like what you like, and can't see what others see in crap you don't.

Some people like Kendo, others Iaedo. Kung-fu versus aikido. WoW versus EVE. It's just taste. I try not to claim "X is a better game than Y" when what I really mean is "I like X more than Y". (Not that you can't make a case -- there are some fairly objective metrics like "How buggy is it" and the like).

[tkinnun0]

Suffice it to say, every gamer that is nearly exclusively playing WoW is missing out on what I consider to be the greatest period in gaming I've seen since the SNES.

Does experiencing that require me to buy new hardware instead of using the old computer I have for web browsing? Or does it provide essentially the same experience as TV only requiring more input from me?

[schild]

tkinnun, if that was my answer I wouldn't be able to see a reason to game at all. None. Zero.

[Simond]

I'm pretty sure Dwarf Fortress (very strong contender for Game of the Year if there were any justice in the world) could be run on an old browsing-the-web doorstop of a pc...it might take a while to set up the world in the first place (which only needs to be done once in a blue moon). Start that up, let it run for half an hour or so then go play.

And Stray - you might want to take a look at the 'Kharazhan preview' thread on the WoW sub-board to see how WoW isn't tank'n'spank, and hasn't really been 'pure' EQ-Style tanking once you get past Molten Bore.

Hell, even EQ moved past that dynamic (in raids, at least) a while back.

[stray]

Some on overwhelming offense.

[Lantyssa]

I think my point is being missed.

Variety is great, and I would love to see more.  In a single player game it is a lot easier to do though.  How do you come up with a combat system in a MMORPG that incorperates a wide variety of styles without ending up with repetative gameplay anyways?  It might be NEW repetition, but how do you keep it fresh through the entire game?

- Latency causes design problems.  Differing latency between players causes more.
- Any limited class or skill system is going to impose constraints.  I love open systems, but companies are scared of them.
- Do you want soloability such that any character can enjoy the content?
- If yes then how do fights scale, especially this new innovative combat?  Five against one with six unique styles and each opponent adding another!?
- How do you balance a monstrosity of that magnitude?  Most games have difficulty with a handfull of classes much less dozens.
- Do you force grouping and watch a new holy trinity form?
- Can you convince the publisher this new system is something people will play?

If it were so easy, why hasn't one of us come up with something, patented it, and gotten rich by selling the rights to the next big AAA title maker?  I just don't think it is going to happen without someone having a eureka moment and also having the personality to push the idea.  Saying we need something different is easy, actually doing it not so much.

[stray]

It's not about your character's skillset or moves so much as it is the mob's. Skills and controls would be different, of course, but not necessarily more complex. Gameplay lies in what the mob is presenting to you.

In a way, you wouldn't even need to change controls at all. The kind of encounters I'm talking about could exist in WoW (as they supposedly do in high level dungeons).

Some low level dungeons in WoW do it to a small extent already as well, but not enough to really notice. In one of the Scarlet Monestary dungeons, for example, the last boss (Herod) does a spinning sword attack thing. The traditional approach to tanking doesn't work here....What your party needs to do is stay out of his way until he winds down....Then you proceed to beat on him.

All mobs should fight like that to some degree (And they still need to be more interesting and not so easily evident as well. Herod's a piss poor example, even though the basic idea is right). There should never, ever, be gameplay that relies on the traditional tanking paradigm imo.

[stray]

- Can you convince the publisher this new system is something people will play?

Considering that this form of gameplay has been in place from Donkey Kong to Gradius to God of War, I think so.

[Slyfeind]

Remember player expectations have a lot of weight here; small moves need to be made. Before DAOC, it was expected that monsters follow until you or they die. I remember when DAOC launched, a lot of people thought it was a bug that monsters stopped chasing you. Nowadays, it's the standard. Additionally, WoW makes it clear to the player when different behavior is intended. "You won't pull me from my lair with your feeble DIKU tactics!" screams the boss of Alterac Valley.

I'd be in favor of warriors doing DeePeeEss as well as tanking, and designate rogues to just stealing shit and finding traps. Unfortunately, most players would be confused as hell, and smoke would come from their ears and they'd be all like "Illogical! Illogical!" and their heads would explode.

The Donkey Kong analogy is a solid one, but radically new game systems need to be marketted carefully, so you don't get players expecting your druids to shapeshift and your shamans to drop totems.

[Venkman]

There needs to be an overwhelming need to change a paradigm before the big money is going to bother. As evidenced by the success of WoW, that need does not exist in this genre.

Yet. It's coming though. Get passed WoW and you see a lot of innovation here or coming. People like to lump "MMOGs" altogether, but that only exposes those who've only played the diku-inspired titles. That's definition by horse blinders.

What people seem to want is an alternative to diku that is as successful as diku. That you won't get any time soon, as evidenced by titles more successful than WoW but really only with business models and graphics to differentiate them from WoW.

This is like anything, from books to TV to music. You either like what most other people are liking or go after the more fringe elements and accept it.

Edit: to add stuff

I want to see more differentiation at the level I play at. It's fine to claim the raid game beyond Molten Core in WoW is different from pull/tank/DPS, but the fact is nowhere near everyone is going ot see that. So to them, most of WoW is pull/DPS solo and pull/tank/DPS in groups. That's fine because it works, but it's a system easily, err, "systemized".

I want quests resolved based on choices, not only pull/tank/DPS. But I don't expect that in WoW. There's no need.

Yet.

(again)

[Riggswolfe]

Correct, they are not sheep. They are worse than sheep. I've been dangling a number of great games in front of WoW playing friends' faces for two years now, for instance. They won't have any of it.

I don't know exactly what that is, but there's something wrong with it. It's beyond sheepdom, and beyond a mere liking for a game. It's borderline psychotic. It's Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It's fucking Jonestown.

Ummm...this is human nature. They are doing something they enjoy. You are dangling something in front of them that they might potentially enjoy. You're asking them to set aside something that is a known to try an unknown. Most people won't do it. MMOs make that tendency worse since there is usually that feeling of "if I stop I'll fall behind the curve."

Honestly, I feel sorry for you guys that have such a hate-on for Blizzard that you're blinded to WoW. It's not the most original game out there but it has been hands down the most fun I ever had in a diku-model game. And for me no non-diku model game has yet been stable and fun enough to compete.

Seriously, I echo whoever it was asking about berets and black turtlenecks. You people remind me of exactly that crowd. Which is all the more ironic considering how Schild is such a Nintendo and Sony fanboi.

[stray]

I'm not asking anybody to set aside a known for an unknown. These people I'm talking about were once well rounded gamers. They used to be the ones who introduced me to all kinds of games. One of them, for example, was a strategy buff. Another was such a rabid console gamer that he had Japanese and U.S. versions of every single console starting from the NES.

Besides that, what the hell is so "unknown" about the every other game out there besides WoW? You make it sound like gaming is some brave new world, and that World of Warcraft is the alpha and omega of it. As if all other gaming ideas on planet Earth are untried and untested vagaries, not worthy of anyone deviating from grinds and foozle whacking.

[Threash]

Gah. Can't resist.

Perhaps you're reading my example wrong ("Buff > Pull > Tank > DPS > Heal > Ding").

I never said I had anything against a game with those elements. What I'm pointing out is that specific order of things. I said it's a routine, instead of a game. I'm still saying that. Once you figure out how to pull and tank, there's no puzzle or challenge left. Every encounter remains the same throughout the entirety of your experience. Rarely does the formula get mixed up, rarely do mobs do things that throw the players off -- People can always maintain that same basic strategy and, more or less, succeed.

That's a big difference, between say, a game that requires you to repeatedly block or avoid a monster until he gives you an opening in some kind of critical area. Say, for example, Rhino in Ultimate Spider-Man: You do not tank him. You don't even want to be hit once by him. You avoid his charges, avoid him when he hurls cars at you, and only at special times can you jump on his back to hit him in a soft spot. Rinse, repeat, until he falls down.

Or Mike Tyson's Punchout: Same principle. The Bald Bull. When he does that bull charge, you've got to time that stomach punch just right or you lose. And even more to the point: Every fighter fights you differently. You can't use the Bald Bull strategy on Piston Honda.

The funny thing is there are fights in wow that are almost exactly like what you describe and of several dozen other types also.  Tank and spank went out of style after one or two EQ expansions, wow dropped the ball in molten core but almost every boss in bwl/zg/both aqs and naxx is as complicated as single player games. 

[schild]

When I compare MMOGs to games, I like comparing them to shallow platformers and 20 year old "fighting" games too.

Bad angle there, Stray.

Seriously, I echo whoever it was asking about berets and black turtlenecks. You people remind me of exactly that crowd. Which is all the more ironic considering how Schild is such a Nintendo and Sony fanboi.

I don't get it.

[stray]

The funny thing is there are fights in wow that are almost exactly like what you describe and of several dozen other types also.  Tank and spank went out of style after one or two EQ expansions, wow dropped the ball in molten core but almost every boss in bwl/zg/both aqs and naxx is as complicated as single player games. 

I'll give some credit for that, but for the most part, my answer is.....So? Players still have to grind through 60 levels of the other stuff, get in a guild that can stick together, deal with their class being pigeonholed, and make it past MC and other low lvl raids.

And it's not like raiding guilds are common manifestations of how people want to play. I think a number was being thrown around somewhere that only 8% of WoW's entire playerbase has seen a raid. And hardly any guild that does raid makes it to Naxx or AQ40. Even after a year of investment.

Getting to Naxx or AQ would take even the most determined player a long time to get to. I could pop in just about any action or handheld title and get that kind of gameplay within 20 seconds.

[EDIT]

Bad angle there, Stray.

Hmm.... Old or not, the basic principle behind Punch Out is no different than a God of War boss: Gameplay revolving around "pattern recognition", as Raph would put it.

[Venkman]

Besides that, what the hell is so "unknown" about the every other game out there besides WoW? You make it sound like gaming is some brave new world, and that World of Warcraft is the alpha and omega of it. As if all other gaming ideas on planet Earth are untried and untested vagaries, not worthy of anyone deviating from grinds and foozle whacking.

Games are designed for 10 or so hours of play. A good MMO is designed for 500. There's a big difference. WoW has at least 10 hours of content as compelling as you'd find in any game. But that's a mere percentage of the overall otherwise-fairly-mundane experience. Some players live for those exceptions. Other players find those exceptions really annoying because it gets in the way of their loot.

The very motivation behind playing an MMOG for a long period of time is fundamentally different. As such, they are designed different.

How many games have you played for years? This isn't a personal question. Rather, it's an invitation to look at the differences at a different level.

[Riggswolfe]

I'm not asking anybody to set aside a known for an unknown. These people I'm talking about were once well rounded gamers. They used to be the ones who introduced me to all kinds of games. One of them, for example, was a strategy buff. Another was such a rabid console gamer that he had Japanese and U.S. versions of every single console starting from the NES.

Yes, you are. They are having fun. They know when they log in tomorrow they will probably have fun. You're trying to get them interested in something that is not that and being pissed at them for essentially going "um, I'm enjoying this, thanks."

It's the same thing as you're in the middle of some console game you love and some dude is like "hey, come play this other game." Your response will probably be "not right now I'm enjoying this."

Besides that, what the hell is so "unknown" about the every other game out there besides WoW? You make it sound like gaming is some brave new world, and that World of Warcraft is the alpha and omega of it. As if all other gaming ideas on planet Earth are untried and untested vagaries, not worthy of anyone deviating from grinds and foozle whacking.

You're not getting it. The unknown is very simple. "Will I have as much fun with this other game I haven't played as I am currently having with WoW." Not to mention the other point I made which is the "left behind" factor.

[stray]

I'm not asking anybody to set aside a known for an unknown. These people I'm talking about were once well rounded gamers. They used to be the ones who introduced me to all kinds of games. One of them, for example, was a strategy buff. Another was such a rabid console gamer that he had Japanese and U.S. versions of every single console starting from the NES.

Yes, you are. They are having fun. They know when they log in tomorrow they will probably have fun. You're trying to get them interested in something that is not that and being pissed at them for essentially going "um, I'm enjoying this, thanks."

Hi. You don't know my friends. I don't need your advice.

Besides, I'm only trying to get them interested in things that they themselves got me interested just two years ago.

Hell, the guy with the console fetish: It was ME who told him about MMO's.

It's the same thing as you're in the middle of some console game you love and some dude is like "hey, come play this other game." Your response will probably be "not right now I'm enjoying this."

No, it's not the same thing. Because I don't even do that. Whatever anti-social inclinations you may have --- Don't project them on to me.

You're not getting it. The unknown is very simple. "Will I have as much fun with this other game I haven't played as I am currently having with WoW." Not to mention the other point I made which is the "left behind" factor.

Telling a guy about Rome:TW or Medieval:TW, who at one point in time, introduced me to Shogun: TW is NOT telling him about an "unknown".

[Riggswolfe]

Hi. You don't know my friends. I don't need your advice.

Well, since according to you your friends are worse than sheep and borderline psychotic I don't know what else to tell you.

Screw it. I give up. You're right. Because your friends are enjoying something you aren't and don't want to do other things that they did in the past (other games in this case) then clearly WoW is evil and only sheep enjoy it and you might as well go bomb the Blizzard server farms for the good of humanity.

[stray]

Screw it. I give up. You're right.

Thanks, I know 

[caladein]

You're not getting it. The unknown is very simple. "Will I have as much fun with this other game I haven't played as I am currently having with WoW." Not to mention the other point I made which is the "left behind" factor.

Telling a guy about Rome:TW or Medieval:TW, who at one point in time, introduced me to Shogun: TW is NOT telling him about an "unknown".

Actually it is, because to a few folks, I'm that friend. I got my friends into RtCW/ET and BF1942 and then I went on my MMO binge. BF2 and BF2142, haven't touched them. WoW's here, my guild's full of great guys, and I don't have to regain my atrophied FPS skills to have fun.

I know I'm crazy, but I guess I'm worse then sheep too.