Schilling's Green Monster Games

[gryeyes]

INCONCEIVABLE!

[Rendakor]

Expansions are game over if you are one who believes the game begins at the level cap.

[Senses]

Expansions aren't game over, and why are you guys having such a hard time with this?  If you want proof, compare the experience of the guy who started WoW with the latest expansion to the guy who already had a max leveled toon and max leveled gear.  One guy spent weeks or even months just catching up in empty zones hearing about all the great new stuff in ooc, while the other guy was enjoying new content. 

Game over in the context of this argument, or this thread, or in refererance to what Curt alluded to, means, game over.  They can gimmick it up all they want by saying Chapter 1 over, or Book 1, Volume 2 is now live, but if your character's are wiped, I would essentially say that is "Game Over," and I can't think of a single massively multiplayer online roleplaying game where that has ever been the case.  Well change that, when your particular private Ultima Online shard wipes all the characters and announces they are reopening with new rules, that might indeed be an example.  Sadly, that particular server is now closed officially.

[Rendakor]

Curt himself said he wanted some kind of "Game Over" mechanic, then later commented that it would be stupid if your characters were completely reset.

If you're at the level cap in an MMO and an expansion comes out, it's game over for the previous endgame. Using WoW: MC, BWL, Kara, etc. are all dead. The endgame is over, replaced by a new endgame where none of your previous achievements (gear) mean anything; that is not unlike a character wipe if you are an endgame minded player.

If you're one who takes most pleasure in the journey to the cap, of course you will disagree with me.

[March]

If you're one who takes most pleasure in the journey to the cap, of course you will disagree with me.

I take your point; however, as a solo player I still find that content that is way behind the maturity curve of the game is just not as fun as when you are in the middle of the pack.

Even though I enjoyed the 1-60 ride quite a bit, I find it now to be a completely different experience and mostly dead; TBC is actually worse, IMO.  In fact, I notice all the horribly annoying things that WotLK fixed, but which have not been back-filled into older content... demonstrating that even in the developer's mind, that content is not worth being "fixed".

Even for "levelers" being too far removed from the current gameplay and enhancements really does make the previous chapters un-dead if not actually dead.

So, turning back to Schilling's Game-Over comments, I'm not sure what he or anyone can do... but if someone cracks that nut, I expect it will expose a certain vulnerability in the WoW model.

[Senses]

Curt himself said he wanted some kind of "Game Over" mechanic, then later commented that it would be stupid if your characters were completely reset.

If you're at the level cap in an MMO and an expansion comes out, it's game over for the previous endgame. Using WoW: MC, BWL, Kara, etc. are all dead. The endgame is over, replaced by a new endgame where none of your previous achievements (gear) mean anything; that is not unlike a character wipe if you are an endgame minded player.

If you're one who takes most pleasure in the journey to the cap, of course you will disagree with me.

Perhaps this really is just a mindset issue, I don't know.  I have never ever seen expansions as "game over," but then I also wasn't the type of guy that quit the game for 6 months before an expansion because all my gear, deeds and experiences were suddenly rendered meaningless.  It honestly seems to me that if you approach MMO's with the "game over" mindset, then you have just tricked yourself into never playing at all, because ultimately, everything is completely meaningless.  Expansions to me, are just new content.

[Rendakor]

Some MMOs have released what I would call Content Expansions instead of Game Over Expansions; EQ2 has released two of these (EoF and TSO) that simply add new content without raising the level cap and effectively killing the old content.

WoW's expansions have not just been "new content" because they replace the old content. BC replaced Vanilla WoW's endgame, then LK replaced BC. Now, it's not like those old endgames don't exist anymore, but they're only being used by a minority of the playerbase. If you play seriously at the endgame, a level-cap raising expansion literally ends that. Your awesome epeen epix will be replaced with greens halfway through the new expansion, and when you hit the new max it starts all over again. It is not a progression; you don't need to have cleared Kara to zone into Naxx.

Fake Edit: WoW's limited-time-available achievements (ZA bear, protodrakes) further clarify the Game Over mindset. For the bleeding edge hardcore, the opportunity to do and achieve certain things is only briefly available. Once a new patch comes out, they are removed. Gone. Game over, man, Game over!

[Khaldun]

For all that WoW gets a lot of credit for doing PvE right, the fact is that they mostly don't do content that's rewarding in and of itself, regardless of progression. If you're not getting something--an achievement, a level, a rare item--WoW's content is not all that big a pull on gameplay. That's what you need if you're going to do horizontal content expansions (e.g., not Game Over expansions): I need to feel that I want to see the cool new place regardless of whether I *need* anything from it.

[aeiouy]

Requirement? No.  You can make any game you want and call it an MMOG if it connects to other computers.  What the general public will expect from a MMORPG is persistent and sustained single character development.  If your characters are not permanent, and are subject to disappearing depending on the content cycle of the developer then you have to bill it as that, but it won't be your standard MMORPG (yes I know there isn't any mention of permanent characters in the acronym M.M.O.R.P.G.).

People who make little text based race car, knights, and war games for the iPhone refer to their products as MMOGs and MMORPGs.  I think you are going to have to learn to let go of your belief of what it is.  At this point it is a losing battle.

As for what it could mean, I could see a game where you progressed through phases and essentially came to the end at one point. Perhaps even to not be picked up until an expansion.  Yet you would still have some carry over or impact on what you did when moving through the next phase.

Anyways, I used to try and protect the acronym, but its over Johnny.

[Venkman]

Worlds can reset without people losing all their progress. If there is "permadeath" ever again, for one it won't be called that And for another, it'll just be some sort of transcendance into the next phase of whatever, where you don't lose what you had, you just don't bother using it because you spawned a new character.

Sorta like the aforementioned bump from MC to Kara for those who bought BC versus those who did not. Nothing you had prior is inaccessible, there just isn't any reason to go there anymore.

And yes, anything can be called "MMO". But this is because the term is losing its ability to rally interest unto itself, which is why companies keep trying to throw out new terms.

[Aez]

We're lacking concrete example.

Shadowbane could have implemented world reset with persistent character.  Everyone was bounded to trees of life.  Lets say you have to build a a very expensive temple in your town, bring Shadowbane in and hold it for two weeks. If you manage to keep it there, you "won".  All the players from your town get a cosmetic reward, the world blacks out.  The server change map, everything  is back to square one except some soulbounded item and your character level.

With lots of budget, you could probably have a couple of different "game over" event.  You could even have a choice.  If you destroy Shadowbane, the next world is darker and the next "game over" event is a roaming epic boss that has to be defeated.  If you uncurse Shadowbane, the next event gets more sunlight and resources and the next "game over" event is to awoke the epic boss with a different artifact.

Expansion add one or two "game over" event and a new world map.  You could also add smaller quests or goals that would be carried over from one world map to the other so smaller guilds also have an impact.

If the game is based on quest, budget less quest but change them between world maps.  In the darker map, Timmeh is already dead and you can only avenge him.  In the lighter map, he ask you to collect flowers for his mother...

[UnSub]

Provided the characters are persistent, the world changing probably isn't a huge issue.

POTBS did this, correct? Main problem being that winning the world didn't do anything and one faction couldn't even win the map.

I agree with Aez - if the map resets, it needs to be to something different, even if only slightly different, so players get to explore the world again and see new things.

[Bzalthek]

Resets are kind of boring, to be honest.  If I had my druthers, I'd set up a timeline system.  Your first era you have a number of branches which the players as a whole can make.  Does Kingdom A conquer neighboring Kingdom B?  Players can align with either kingdom and fight for that to occur.  When that era finishes, they "zone" into the next era which now reflects the events of the first era.  As a bonus, you can allow players to go back and play in the first era, which loops again and again with possible different results, but the results of the first run is what counts for the next era. (Alternatively, replaying it with different results could unlock the ability to go to the different timeline, but that magnifies development time.)

Something like this, in my opinion, would necessitate a single shard design, as different shards would start significantly branching away from each other after a few eras unless you adopted the multiple timeline idea.

[Falwell]

New article I found this afternoon.

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/07/26/curt_schilling_pitches_his_latest_venture_to_investors/?page=1

Basically details 38 Studio's trouble of finding investors currently.

[schild]

Sea Hags and Gnome Praetorians in the Tolkien-esque fantasy realm where the game is set.

So it's different from WoW how?

Baseball!

Funny thing about the second paragraph. He could probably get other baseball players to invest.

[Tannhauser]

Gnome Praetorians?  Is he doing the fantasy version of Imperator?  I am pulling for him; we need more choice in MMO's. 

[SnakeCharmer]

Gnome

 

It's not like anyone expected anything else, but I held out a small candle of hope it was something different.

50 to 100 million more to complete a game they hoped to get out by Dec 2010?  The fuck?

[gehrig38]

Gnome

 

It's not like anyone expected anything else, but I held out a small candle of hope it was something different.

50 to 100 million more to complete a game they hoped to get out by Dec 2010?  The fuck?

The inaccuracies of the article are too numerous to spell out. One of them being 100 million more to complete, that was a discussion about cost of making MMO's these days in which I said "It costs 50 to 100 million to put something into the market that's polished, and deep enough to keep players around".

Cool thing is that it only took one interview to realize this industries media is no different than the sports world....

[SnakeCharmer]

OK, fair enough about the money.  I'll concede that.

But, seriously.  Gnomes?

Again?

Edit:  Regarding the media remark...Looks like boston.com is just a regular newsite with a tech column like anyone else.  Gaming journalism (lol, the irony) is much, much worse.

[Lantyssa]

'Real' media isn't much better these days.

[Numtini]

If you're at the level cap in an MMO and an expansion comes out, it's game over for the previous endgame

They only raise the level cap every other expansion in EQ2 and while it might not be the "end game" a lot of second tier guilds end up doing the previous expansion content or finishing it. That's where I've spent most of my time in EQ2 and honestly, it's never felt second rate at all even tho it technically was. It's still challenging and its still something only a portion of the community undertakes.

Boston.com is the Boston Globe and their impossible to navigate site is a testimony to why they're on the verge of bankruptcy when they're actually a very good paper. Sidenote about 38. Nice offices. It's a beautiful converted mill with the exposed cat 5 and electricity running along exposed 19th century beams and brick and creating this past/present industrial feel. Beautiful. Really one of the nicest tech offices I've ever been in. Say hi to the guys at VADAR.

[Arrrgh]

Gnome Praetorians

Tell me they can gank elves!

[Aez]

Gnome Praetorians is different enough for me.  Sounds fun.

Still doesn't beat halfling cannibals.

[Draegan]

You guys were thinking this wasn't going to be a typical fantasy background with RA Salvatore on staff?

Nothing wrong with it either.

[schild]

I'm trying to figure out why the Roman Emperor would have Gnomes as his special guard.

Or did someone consult a thesaurus?

:oh_salvatore:

We definitely need a smiley for that. maybe Awesome with a Robin Hood hat. Or a roman soldier helmet, one of those crappy brown ones that look like a snowcap from the 60s with flaps and shit.

[gehrig38]

I'm trying to figure out why the Roman Emperor would have Gnomes as his special guard.

It will be obvious, some day, at some point.

[gryeyes]

Salvatore smiley has purple eyes with two stick arms dual wielding swords.

[Aez]

[schild]

I'm trying to figure out why the Roman Emperor would have Gnomes as his special guard.

It will be obvious, some day, at some point.

I don't even know why you reply to me anymore. But since we're being hypothetical and you seem to be building Dragonlance meets Imperator, let's just take it to the logical extreme. You should fly me out to Boston and I'll spend 1 week as a consultant for the hardcore jerkoff community and poke holes through the entire design.

Then I'll keep my mouth completely shut til release. I will sign anything you want in order to keep me gagged.

After which, I won't need to say anything ever because you and I will both know whether those holes were filled with awesome or not.

And then, 5 years from now, one of us will see eachother at a gaming con, and one of us will get the pleasure of saying "Told you So."

[Ghambit]

Eh Curt... you gonna have anyone at Gen Con this year?

[gehrig38]

I'm trying to figure out why the Roman Emperor would have Gnomes as his special guard.

It will be obvious, some day, at some point.

I don't even know why you reply to me anymore. But since we're being hypothetical and you seem to be building Dragonlance meets Imperator, let's just take it to the logical extreme. You should fly me out to Boston and I'll spend 1 week as a consultant for the hardcore jerkoff community and poke holes through the entire design.

Then I'll keep my mouth completely shut til release. I will sign anything you want in order to keep me gagged.

After which, I won't need to say anything ever because you and I will both know whether those holes were filled with awesome or not.

And then, 5 years from now, one of us will see eachother at a gaming con, and one of us will get the pleasure of saying "Told you So."

I reply to you because with exception of the f bombs you're no different than anyone else on this board to me. You're a gamer, I'm a gamer, and when gaming topics come up, we converse.

Not sure where a need for "told you so" would come in, since I'm promising nothing but a cool, fun, kick ass game. If you mean to tell me that's not what it's going to be, I guess we'll find out. Likely to be sooner than 5 years from now though.

[Merusk]

From that article:

Even after a massively multiplayer game is launched, “99 percent of them fail,’’ said analyst Mike Hickey, who tracks the games industry at Janco Partners Inc.

What?

[tmp]

It will be obvious, some day, at some point.

It's Gnoman Empire, isn't it.

[UnSub]

From that article:

Even after a massively multiplayer game is launched, “99 percent of them fail,’’ said analyst Mike Hickey, who tracks the games industry at Janco Partners Inc.

What?

I saw that too. Either the newspaper got it wrong or that analyst is overpaid. Plus such statements are hardly going to drive investors towards 38 Studios.

[Falwell]

Hey now, if we're handing out paid flight and advisory positions in here, I'd like to get in on one of those.  I could seriously use a vacation.

What struck me as the biggest alarm here was the purchase of BHG and shortly after we now have an article talking about investment problems. I would hope to all hell that the money isn't THAT bad in the 38 studios camp.