What's wrong with this game?

[Venkman]

Could be completely unrelated :) By GPU do you mean my video card? Sapphire Radeon 9800pro (128mb). AGP on my ASUS motherboard with nForce 415-D. 1gb RAM. At first I was thinking it could be fragmented data, but swapping resolution wouldn't really solve highly fragmented texture file access I wouldn't think.

[Engels]

Girlfriend and I just had a long discussion about immersion in an mmo, largely sparked by Schild's claim that MMOs don't have 'love'. That brought us around to the fundamental differences between a fantasy RPG and a non-fantasy rpg. There has to be a sense of a pre-technology world and a huge world confronting the 'brave band of adventurers'.

I fear that LoTR is going to fall flat on its face in this aspect. I don't require a McQuaid like vision of eternal player torment, but the Lone Lands, for instance, have teh ruins of Eanrienglaedabinaeril 3 feet away from the Lost Cairn of Bolrigifoodingleblatrin which in turn is 4 yards from the respawn point, which in turn is 2 feet from the Medium Weaponsmith.

That just ain't gonna work. I think its too late tho.

[Venkman]

Most games are set up like this. But players put up with it in other games because their expectations are different. For LoTRO, they may want an "epic" that just isn't there for them. It's the same challenge SWG faced: delivering the epic of the movies in a static timeline.

Having said that, I found the Elven starting land of Eldion (or close to that) to be pretty appropriate scaled. It felt big. Not in a West Karana "what's the point" sorta way, but big enough and big looking.

It's just that when I found a barren looking ruin, there was a whole bunch of vendors there... reminded me of most other MMORPGs: the setting is irrelevant to the services offered therein.

[Engels]

I can forgive starter newbie areas being a bit more compact, with pure 'entertainment' value content being conveniently close to trainers and vendors and the like. Its a starter area after all. But once I've cut my teeth on some content and I'm in week 4 of playing, I'd like a bit more to chew off than a simple clone of the newbie area, only with higher level mobs. I don't think its too much to ask.

[stray]

I don't have a problem with the world so much as I do the classes. They're horrible.

Being loyal to LotR is only a part of it (a part I don't place much thought on, to be honest). The biggest reason being: If you're going to take out magic, then I believe it has to be made up for in a big way. They haven't done that.

As far as LotR specific reasons go: The Guardian class, for example. Tanks.

Lets not get into how shitty a concept Tanks are to begin with --- A good enough reason is that they simply aren't in the movies or the books.

If you want to find the most effective way to implement combat that is completely unlike that portrayed in the Lord of the Rings, then this is how you would do it.

I don't fully lay the blame on Turbine though. I blame earlier testers.

[Venkman]

They didn't really take out magic though. Or, is it that Lore Masters are so gimped at later levels nobody plays them? The guy I've got casts damage, AOEs, buffs/debuffs, summons pet(s) and has some light crowd control down the road. Seems great for how I prefer to play. Certainly not faithful to either the books nor the movie really, because there's no restrictions on the number of Lore Masters, but I'd let this one slide because, well, I like me my flash bangs :)

And Engels, I agree. I want far flung vast wilderness at higher levels. It's something that always bothered me slightly about WoW: no matter where you go, you're within 5 minutes of a vendor. But then, I play a Mage Engineer, so am 5 minutes from anywhere ;)

[stray]

Remember those elves with the polearms that showed up to defend Rohan? They should include those dudes, kind of like the Human specific Captain class. Make them AoE melee.

Dwarves should get a Drunken Master.

I don't know about Hobbits.

[Rasix]

I don't know about Hobbits.

How about "Decoy" or "Abductee".

[Nebu]

Here's what I see as the biggest problem: What will someone from another MMOG (WoW etc) find in this game that they haven't already experienced elsewhere?  There's no "COOL!" factor.  Nothing really stands out as being a new experience to me. 

I'd like to think that I'm not so jaded as to be unimpressed so easily.  I really wanted to like this title, but after almost a week, I haven't found anything that really grabbed me.  There's just no "hook".

[Venkman]

I agree it's a big question. The first few hours are critical for any newbie, veteran from other games or not. So far the cool factor has been the use of queued actions (ala CoX) and a couple of compelling world-altering stories (like the Elven-Male starting one where you witness the entombment of records lest Dwarves get 'em, or the Human one that involves rescuing Hobbits). WoW doesn't really have that in the early levels, even for Draenai and Blood Elf. But then, after those opening events, LoTRO becomes another WoW. At least, so far.

But then, what was really different about WoW? Most of its oh-geeness for vets was the pace, and some combined class abilities. For newbies to the genre, it was anything we found interesting in our first games.

I'm  not saying LoTRO is gonna be a smash hit because of its tweaks on convention or because it attracts zillions of new entrants to the genre. I just think there may be some amount of wow here, enough to draw people who are new or bored with other games.

Oddly enough there seems some disparity between the impressions based on starting areas. How many are there? So far I saw 5 options for Human and I think 5 for Elf. Is this a problem analogous to SWG, where with the breadth of starting area options (at launch there were like 22 or so) almost guaranteed picking one that sucked?

[Rasix]

Here's what I see as the biggest problem: What will someone from another MMOG (WoW etc) find in this game that they haven't already experienced elsewhere?  There's no "COOL!" factor.  Nothing really stands out as being a new experience to me. 

I'd like to think that I'm not so jaded as to be unimpressed so easily.  I really wanted to like this title, but after almost a week, I haven't found anything that really grabbed me.  There's just no "hook".

That's why I'm playing WoW again and can't bring myself to log back into LOTRO.  Well, that and I'm playing FFXII which is kind of like a single player MMO.  Playing 3 MMO type combat engine games at once would slay me.

Even then, I'm finding it hard to double up on my diku, especially when the LOTRO is just a different flavored re-hash of what I'm playing with my friends. One with worse combat, worse classes, and IMO worse art.

The lore could be the saving grace, the main story line could be a major hook.  But there has to be a LOT more of it.  More narrative driven quests please, less collect 12 goblin toenails.  If I could follow the main story line with only doing a few sidequests here and there to level up.. that'd be fantastic. 

I'll probably log in to fufill my testing duties (I feel like I'm being neglectful) after I finish up with FFXII. Still, I think I may have gotten to the point where I'm not going to play a game just because it's a new setting or a little different.  If there's another game that does everything it does and better, I'm going to be playing that game.

[Rasix]

So far the cool factor has been the use of queued actions (ala CoX)

That's not something you can put on a game box.  I'm sure some marketting genius would call that "innovative, interactive combat". I never even noticed that as something special. You can't transfer that feature into months of subscibing.

But then, what was really different about WoW? Most of its oh-geeness for vets was the pace, and some combined class abilities. For newbies to the genre, it was anything we found interesting in our first games.

A complete quest driven advancement from 1-60 was a big thing for me.  Now I expect that standard from any MMO I'm playing that isn't just a sandbox.  If someone wants to make that a feature now, they better expand or do better.  Otherwise, there wasn't a lot completely new that WoW did, but it did everything it did BETTER than anyone else with a greater degree of polish.  A game putting WoW in its sights better nail areas like art direction, combat, travel, PVP, etc.
 

Oddly enough there seems some disparity between the impressions based on starting areas. How many are there? So far I saw 5 options for Human and I think 5 for Elf. Is this a problem analogous to SWG, where with the breadth of starting area options (at launch there were like 22 or so) almost guaranteed picking one that sucked?

I don't think those are different staring areas.  I believe there's a starting area for each race, not subrace options. I could be wrong.

Do people know when the races converge at a common area or at least start to get together?  Prolonged separation could be a problem for friends playing with each other.  Not all of my friends love dwarves.

[Trippy]

Here's what I see as the biggest problem: What will someone from another MMOG (WoW etc) find in this game that they haven't already experienced elsewhere?  There's no "COOL!" factor.  Nothing really stands out as being a new experience to me. 

I'd like to think that I'm not so jaded as to be unimpressed so easily.  I really wanted to like this title, but after almost a week, I haven't found anything that really grabbed me.  There's just no "hook".

The hook is the Middle-earth setting. Unfortunately other than the story-line quests the world feels like "generic fantasy MMORPG" which is ironic considering that Tolkein invented that setting but which is now more closely associated with D&D, EQ, and now WoW. The rest of game has a generic feel as well with no interesting or inventive gameplay elements. They sort of tried with the traits customization system but the effects are so small, at least at the early parts of the game (wow I get a whole 0.1 increase in my out-of-combat regen rate, sweet!), that they seem meaningless. Even AC2 had a more interesting game mechanic with its flexible skill system.

[Trippy]

Oddly enough there seems some disparity between the impressions based on starting areas. How many are there? So far I saw 5 options for Human and I think 5 for Elf. Is this a problem analogous to SWG, where with the breadth of starting area options (at launch there were like 22 or so) almost guaranteed picking one that sucked?

I don't think those are different staring areas.  I believe there's a starting area for each race, not subrace options. I could be wrong.

Those aren't, those are just part of your character background.

Do people know when the races converge at a common area or at least start to get together?  Prolonged separation could be a problem for friends playing with each other.  Not all of my friends love dwarves.

The Dwarf area runs out of quests at around 12 - 14 and the storyline quest sends you to talk to Strider in Bree which continues the same storyline as the Man side.

[Nebu]

The hook is the Middle-earth setting. Unfortunately other than the story-line quests the world feels like "generic fantasy MMORPG" which is ironic considering that Tolkien invented that setting but which is now more closely associated with D&D, EQ, and now WoW. The rest of game has a generic feel as well with no interesting or inventive gameplay elements. They sort of tried with the traits customization system but the effects are so small, at least at the early parts of the game (wow I get a whole 0.1 increase in my out-of-combat regen rate, sweet!), that they seem meaningless. Even AC2 had a more interesting game mechanic with its flexible skill system.

I'm sure this is going to get some laughs, but I actually enjoyed AC2 a lot more than I'm enjoying this beta.  I don't feel like I'm a part of the Tolkien trilogy here.  I feel like genericnoob_0136 running into an open field to kill some spiders/pigs/bears/rats.  The ability cues are similar to what I've used in DAoC and CoX, so that's not a huge selling feature.  The quests have been mildly entertaining, but the world seems too compressed.  I keep telling myself that "maybe I'm not high enough level" or "maybe I'm not the right class...".  Then I realize that a MMOG at this point in the game needs to be FUN FROM THE START FOR ALL CLASSES.    I hope someone at Turbine has an epiphany soon... else they may be having a hard time breaking even on this one.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm sure this is going to get some laughs, but I actually enjoyed AC2 a lot more than I'm enjoying this beta.  I don't feel like I'm a part of the Tolkien trilogy here.  I feel like genericnoob_0136 running into an open field to kill some spiders/pigs/bears/rats.  The ability cues are similar to what I've used in DAoC and CoX, so that's not a huge selling feature.  The quests have been mildly entertaining, but the world seems too compressed.  I keep telling myself that "maybe I'm not high enough level" or "maybe I'm not the right class...".  Then I realize that a MMOG at this point in the game needs to be FUN FROM THE START FOR ALL CLASSES.    I hope someone at Turbine has an epiphany soon... else they may be having a hard time breaking even on this one.

There's a lot wrong, not enough character customisation, combat could be more interesting and too many of the same types of mob.  I also don't really like the human starter area, I dislike Breeland (excluding the barrows) and the western part part of the low lands isn't great either (excluding weathertop). 

But I think we should remember that at the end of the day all that's in yet is the level 1-40, in my experience after level 20 it does improve so, that's at least something. 

Post level 20 you get to see some really nice mobs, the instances for Weathertop, Ivar the bloodhand in low lands and Fornost are all excellent.  Comparing the instances to WoW is difficult for me because I quit WoW at level 57, but I would certainly put Weathertop and Fornost at about the same level of enjoyment as SFK and SM in WoW.  I was in a Fornost group with 5 members of Extra Crispy the other day, we cleared through to one boss mob in a tower, but his event was bugged and we couldn't flag him hostile to kill him.  We cleared through to a Shade boss mob (both boss's have very nice graphics) who was also bugged in that he kept respawning, so we killed him about 8 times.  Spent a good couple of hours in Fornost and still didn't see everything as I had to log when we were about to go through the west gate.

Traits and equipment seem to make much more of a difference to your character as well, Trippy said above that traits don't do much, I agree but later on I think it might go the other way.  I finally equipped a shield mastery class trait that gives 5% extra block and 5% extra damage mitigation, it made a massive difference, in fact I think the whole system of combat might end up being broken at higher levels.  If I concentrate on might for block, pick up +% block, parry and evade items, combined with virtue and class traits for damage mitigation I really think at level 50 as a Guardian a 1% extra block chance item might cut your damage taken by 10% if I understand the combat system correctly.  Again the customisation issue hits here as I can't really imagine any other Guardian at my level choosing anything except the exact same class traits as me (ok there's a vexing blow trait that's quite attractive, but I wouldn't waste a slot on any of the others).

So the pre level 20 game needs a lot of buffing as you really want the game to be fun from the start to attract players.  But I think it's too early to predict success or failure, a lot will depend on implementing a decent crafting system, pvp, combat improvements and adding enough different types of loot.  In short, important though the early game is, it's the end game that a lot of players will be most interested in when deciding if they want to try it or not.

My main complaint at the moment is that there are too many fellowship quests for the main storyline, because I play off peak it I have only completed the epic prologue, I have books 1-V open but stuck at various parts as I need groups. 

I don't normally group that much but as there isn't enough solo content after level 35 I have been forced to group.  Sometimes it's really obvious they really haven't thought about how people play, they need to make it more solo friendly but when they add fellowship content they should engage the brain with how people play.   

As an example, there's a fellowship quest chain in Northern Trollshaws, it goes as follows.

1. Meet Scout.
2. Kill 10 elite spiders
3. Grab fangs from 6 elite spider type A and 6 from type B (forget the names)
4  Destroy 12 egg sacks of both types of spider.
5  Kill the queen.

I was in a group that did a few quests then hit this quest chain, we fought our way into the spider area to do part 2, then back in to do parts 3 and 4.  By this time we are sick of spiders and it's taken so long the group breaks up.  So I log back in the next day and get an invite to do the same quest again, but the new group has 4 people who need to start from the beginning so I get to go through it all again until we get to part 5, when after a couple of hours, I have to log out with the Queen still incomplete.

So I have spent about 4 hours on one quest chain and still not seen the end, that's stupid, they either need to retain the standard, solo quest until you have a fellowship quest to complete the chain, or make it so parts 3 & 4 can be done at the same time to cut the number of steps and increase the chances of finding someone on the same quest stage as you.  It's a blast to be in a group and the conjuction system works really well, especially now I just refuse to play a set way for conjunctions and tell bossy player, I'm doing what I like, live with it.

[Trippy]

So the pre level 20 game needs a lot of buffing as you really want the game to be fun from the start to attract players.  But I think it's too early to predict success or failure, a lot will depend on implementing a decent crafting system, pvp, combat improvements and adding enough different types of loot.  In short, important though the early game is, it's the end game that a lot of players will be most interested in when deciding if they want to try it or not.

Except if the early and mid games aren't all that fun why would they stick around till the end game?

[Arthur_Parker]

I don't think the mid game is that bad, I have leveled 2 characters, one to 38, one to 40.  It's only with the release of WoW that the early game in an mmorpg has been really enjoyable.

So I'm not saying the early game shouldn't be improved a lot, I'm just saying a lot of people bought DAoC, Lineage 2, EQ & UO because of the end game and not because they expected the leveling up to be fun.  There isn't an end game in LOTRO yet so drawing conclusions on what's going to happen are a bit early imho.

[Trippy]

I don't think the mid game is that bad, I have leveled 2 characters, one to 38, one to 40.  It's only with the release of WoW that the early game in an mmorpg has been really enjoyable.

So I'm not saying the early game shouldn't be improved a lot, I'm just saying a lot of people bought DAoC, Lineage 2, EQ & UO because of the end game and not because they expected the leveling up to be fun.  There isn't an end game in LOTRO yet so drawing conclusions on what's going to happen are a bit early imho.

UO doesn't have an end-game in the raiding sense. EQ didn't originally have one either (why would anybody want to fight encounters with more than 6 people?). DAoC and Lineage II are about the large-scale PvP/RvR battles which LOTRO isn't going to have. And with WoW people do expect the levelling up part to be fun now from the very beginning, unless you think everybody that's going to play LOTRO on release will have never tried WoW.

[Arthur_Parker]

End game does not equal raiding, can you point me to where I said it did?  Did I piss you off or something, because I certainly don't remember enjoying leveling up my stealing, mining and smithing skills in UO.
Forgive me for thinking that the low level game (pre 20) that you spend 1 - 2 weeks in, isn't as important as the end game where they hope to grab you for a year or more.

[Trippy]

End game does not equal raiding, can you point me to where I said it did?

You didn't but you listed UO, EQ, DAoC, and Lineage II so I commented on those games.

Did I piss you off or something, because I certainly don't remember enjoying leveling up my stealing, mining and smithing skills in UO.
Forgive me for thinking that the low level game (pre 20) that you spend 1 - 2 weeks in, isn't as important as the end game where they hope to grab you for a year or more.

You said:

In short, important though the early game is, it's the end game that a lot of players will be most interested in when deciding if they want to try it or not.

And I'm saying that given the WoW experience people aren't going to be willing to wade through a medicore game to get to some yet undetermined end game anymore, unlike your examples which were all pre-WoW. Therefore Turbine should fix up the early and mid games so that they can better keep those people around till the end game. In other words you are saying the early game is not important, it's the end game that's important, and I'm saying that's the wrong strategy. Hell WoW didn't even ship with raid content initially -- they focused all their attention for the initial release on the levelling experience.

[Arthur_Parker]

In short, important though the early game is, it's the end game that a lot of players will be most interested in when deciding if they want to try it or not.

And I'm saying that given the WoW experience people aren't going to be willing to wade through a medicore game to get to some yet undetermined end game anymore, unlike your examples which were all pre-WoW. Therefore Turbine should fix up the early and mid games so that they can better keep those people around till the end game. In other words you are saying the early game is not important, it's the end game that's important, and I'm saying that's the wrong strategy. Hell WoW didn't even ship with raid content initially -- they focused all their attention for the initial release on the levelling experience.

Bolded a couple of parts.

I also said

There's a lot wrong, not enough character customisation, combat could be more interesting and too many of the same types of mob.  I also don't really like the human starter area, I dislike Breeland (excluding the barrows) and the western part part of the low lands isn't great either (excluding weathertop). 

But I think we should remember that at the end of the day all that's in yet is the level 1-40, in my experience after level 20 it does improve so, that's at least something.

and

So the pre level 20 game needs a lot of buffing as you really want the game to be fun from the start to attract players.  But I think it's too early to predict success or failure, a lot will depend on implementing a decent crafting system, pvp, combat improvements and adding enough different types of loot.  In short, important though the early game is, it's the end game that a lot of players will be most interested in when deciding if they want to try it or not.

Which was in response to Nebu saying they might not break even on this.  Are you speed reading or are my english skills just worse than usual?

[Trippy]

I didn't say that you said the early game didn't need to be improved. As you quoted yourself as saying:

So the pre level 20 game needs a lot of buffing as you really want the game to be fun from the start to attract players.  But I think it's too early to predict success or failure, a lot will depend on implementing a decent crafting system, pvp, combat improvements and adding enough different types of loot.  In short, important though the early game is, it's the end game that a lot of players will be most interested in when deciding if they want to try it or not.

And once again I'm saying that's the wrong reasoning and the wrong strategy.

[Venkman]

Early game captures people. End game keeps them. Both are important, but for different reasons.

People need to be motivated. Newbies to the genre can love all the new sights and sounds, but veterans who've been in a few games need to quickly see the differences. LoTRO looks very different in the first few hours of play, but mechanically it is  very similar to anything else. However, as noted, there's some key systems missing. People get through this learning process and eventually finish it. What do they do at the level cap though? What keeps them trying for the level cap? A sense of accomplishment doesn't work here because it's just a number. Players spend their entire character's life gaining stuff. While they hit the level cap, there is no sign that says "Game Ends Here". So they expect to continue gaining stuff. When they can't, well, that's why WoW 1-59 has long been perceived as so very different from WoW 60.

You need to capture people and keep them motivated.

A complete quest driven advancement from 1-60 was a big thing for me

You'd know way better than I, so I'll ask: does LoTRO offer the same? EQ2 does as far as I was able to tell. Actually, it may have had too many questions (by sheer quantity, since so many were shades of the same thing).

I do agree that queued actions don't move boxes at retail; however, I don't think LoTRO can rely on just that. Boxes at retail talk to consumers not already here. Given that this entire genre is linked back to LoTRO, it's certainly a title many vets already know is coming, whether they're interested or not. As a feature, queuing the next action is at least a feature to differentiate from WoW, and just about any other MMO.

[Rasix]

A complete quest driven advancement from 1-60 was a big thing for me

You'd know way better than I, so I'll ask: does LoTRO offer the same? EQ2 does as far as I was able to tell. Actually, it may have had too many questions (by sheer quantity, since so many were shades of the same thing).

Yes, I believe it will.  The quests are the same quests we've done in WoW, however, but with horrible directions in the quest log (has this improved?). So, it's quest based advancement that at best will be equivalent to WoW's in variety and amount.  Early on, around 15-20, I almost had too many quests.  Arthur Parker seemed to imply that later on most quests fall into being fellowship quests. That'd bother me if it's true.

The problem is for this game is that equivalent isn't good enough.  If I want equivalent, I can play the current game I'm subscribed to and have already established myself in.

I do agree that queued actions don't move boxes at retail; however, I don't think LoTRO can rely on just that. Boxes at retail talk to consumers not already here. Given that this entire genre is linked back to LoTRO, it's certainly a title many vets already know is coming, whether they're interested or not. As a feature, queuing the next action is at least a feature to differentiate from WoW, and just about any other MMO.

I think these touches and minor differentiations matter if they're part of a combat system that's better.  The little touches won't amount to much unless they're parts of the game that improve upon what's already out there.  Otherwise they're just minor quirks that someone's going to enjoy if they already enjoy the game or system as a whole. 

Queued actions work for CoX because it's combat is different and more interesting than your standard MMO fare.

[Arthur_Parker]

And once again I'm saying that's the wrong reasoning and the wrong strategy.

I understand what you are saying but mmorpg players are more connected and switched on than ever before nowadays.  DDO and AC2 both suffered heavily from having people hit max level in the first couple of weeks and saying "there's nothing to do".  Polishing the low level game shouldn't come at the expense of having end game content tested before release, the major source of information about LOTRO will come from the power gamers who are going to blow past it to pvp, raiding and crafting in a week anyway.

[Trippy]

And once again I'm saying that's the wrong reasoning and the wrong strategy.

I understand what you are saying but mmorpg players are more connected and switched on than ever before nowadays. DDO and AC2 both suffered heavily from having people hit max level in the first couple of weeks and saying "there's nothing to do".  Polishing the low level game shouldn't come at the expense of having end game content tested before release, the major source of information about LOTRO will come from the power gamers who are going to blow past it to pvp, raiding and crafting in a week anyway.

And yet that's exactly what Blizzard did with WoW -- they focused on the journey not the destination (the end game in this example) initially -- and most people who play WoW aren't raiders which implies that to them the journey is what's important, not the destination, or at least the journey is interesting enough that they keep playing till they eventually reach the end game. Yes the power gamers are going to blow through the regular content, good or bad, to get to the end game but are those the people Turbine should be catering the game to?

[Arthur_Parker]

The quests are the same quests we've done in WoW, however, but with horrible directions in the quest log (has this improved?). So, it's quest based advancement that at best will be equivalent to WoW's in variety and amount.  Early on, around 15-20, I almost had too many quests.  Arthur Parker seemed to imply that later on most quests fall into being fellowship quests. That'd bother me if it's true.

I think there's a level 30-40 zone missing, Entmoors or something, currently you hit level 34 and run out of solo quests.  I was doing level 41-43 solo quests at level 36 because I knew where to go to do them.

It also wasn't helped by my skipping a lot of the early fellowship quests, the lowering of exp for mob kills and the current issue they have with lower level mobs hitting too hard which restricts the fellowship quests you can solo at higher levels for extra exp.

[stray]

Y'know, looking over DDO lately as well has made me appreciate Turbine a little more. They don't really have a shortage of good ideas. They're just not pulling them off right. DDO's attempt at platform like combat and movement, LotR's slightly broader world and soloability, DDO's deep skill system, etc. -- Both games combined could have possibly put a big dent in WoW's popularity.

[Arthur_Parker]

And yet that's exactly what Blizzard did with WoW -- they focused on the journey not the destination (the end game in this example) initially -- and most people who play WoW aren't raiders which implies that to them the journey is what's important, not the destination, or at least the journey is interesting enough that they keep playing till they eventually reach the end game. Yes the power gamers are going to blow through the regular content, good or bad, to get to the end game but are those the people Turbine should be catering the game to?

Are you saying they should cut back on the current plans for crafting, monster play and high end raids to rework the 1-20 game?  That's 3 starter zones, maybe I'm unusual but I have spent about an hour in the shire and have not even visited the Dwarf/Elf starter area yet.  I'd agree combat needs some work and some more character choices to make your character more unique are needed but I think they are stuck with the sizes of the zones and most of the quests as they are at the minute.  I believe that shipping without decent crafting, at least two high level raid areas and monster play would be a major mistake.

[Nebu]

Are you saying they should cut back on the current plans for crafting, monster play and high end raids to rework the 1-20 game?  That's 3 starter zones, maybe I'm unusual but I have spent about an hour in the shire and have not even visited the Dwarf/Elf starter area yet.  I'd agree combat needs some work and some more character choices to make your character more unique are needed but I think they are stuck with the sizes of the zones and most of the quests as they are at the minute.  I believe that shipping without decent crafting, at least two high level raid areas and monster play would be a major mistake.

Well, they have two choices:

1) Make the entry game SO fun that people will happiy hang around or

2) Create an endgame so novel an appealing that people will endure anything to get to it (a la DAoC)

I don't see either happening yet.  That's the real issue. 

[stray]

Man, what the hell does endgame have to do with LotR? That should be the least of it's priorities.

[Cheddar]

Am I playing a different game then everyone else?  I feel heroic.  Yeah, first 8 levels or so were mediocre, but I hardly notice them due to the interesting quest lines.  Then at one point (at level 10) I ran into some Mordor type creatures, complete with dread effects and whatnot, and felt a rush.  After this I dove into the main storyline and am enjoying that immensely.

Crafting needs work.  Badly.  Can we finally get a DIKU were crafting was actually handy for the level you are?  The current crafting has great potential, but needs some serious work.

[Trippy]

Am I playing a different game then everyone else?  I feel heroic.

I don't. I'm lucky if I can kill two blues with my Hunter if I don't get a chance to fully prep before hand (charge up, lay a trap, etc.).

[Cheddar]

Am I playing a different game then everyone else?  I feel heroic.

I don't. I'm lucky if I can kill two blues with my Hunter if I don't get a chance to fully prep before hand (charge up, lay a trap, etc.).

Maybe thats the difference.  I am playing a Captain, and do pretty well for myself.  I use different techniques while engaging enemies as well;  I like this.  It is nice not depending on auto attack!