Useless Conversation

[FatuousTwat]

During the windstorm on Sunday my plum tree fell down...

For how much I like trees, I fucking hate messing with them.

[Sand]

You may not necessarily want to give up on it entirely, if they want you enough they will sweeten the pot. Leave the door a crack open when you turn them down, I think, and make sure they know you like the job (if this is true) but the numbers aren't quite adding up.

Yep, this is your chance to actively negotiate an offer you would think fair.

Yep, if oyu dont like the offer make a counter-offer.
Never ever accept the initial offer. Worst they can say is no.

[Merusk]

You may not necessarily want to give up on it entirely, if they want you enough they will sweeten the pot. Leave the door a crack open when you turn them down, I think, and make sure they know you like the job (if this is true) but the numbers aren't quite adding up.

Yep, this is your chance to actively negotiate an offer you would think fair.

Yep, if oyu dont like the offer make a counter-offer.
Never ever accept the initial offer. Worst they can say is no.

Well, for 99% of jobs I've been offered the first offer was always well enough above (2-3k) what I was wanting, so I've a bad habit of doing just that.  As a result I have zero negotiation skills and don't know how to say "yeah, that's not going to do it for me" in any way but blunt. (And looking back probably means that I've been way underpaid for my skills, but hey I was still making more than 90% of my coworkers.)

I'm relatively certain they're not going to come up to what I'd need, either.  8% below what I was making before is what they said they were looking to hire at in the interview and I made it pretty clear then that it was low.  It also turns out to be ~11% below what I'm going to be able to make doing short-term work locally.

I get that they can't come up. Housing is hurting pretty bad and there's a ton of unemployed shmoes who can do the work.  Which is why I'm going for commercial while looking at ways to go back to school (If I can even get in. Go go slacker grades.)  Plus, it's a dead-end and it's the job I sat-down and realized, "shit, I don't want to do this again" during the skills test.

So, what.  Do you just say, "Thanks, but no thanks I've got better leads here." ?

[Rasix]

During the windstorm on Sunday my plum tree fell down...

For how much I like trees, I fucking hate messing with them.

Yah.  I've taken out a number of trees since moving into our house just due to how much of a pain in the ass they are.


Shoestring Acacia: they planted it in the middle of the yard, blocking the view.  Already one tree in the yard.
Palm tree: So big it was breaking the wall.  No brainer.
Eucalyptus:  These people planted it in an area that would not be able to contain it.  
Chinese elm:  This thing dropped a ton of really small leaves every fall that got into and under everything.  Giant pain in the ass to clean up.  

Down to a lemon, tangelo, african sumac, mimosa, and a palm tree.  Palm tree may get killed.  I really don't like taking care of them and it's in a dumb part of the yard.  Problem is that you have to remove the stump entirely or have it ground down.  Otherwise, scorpions apparently love to make their nests in dead palm trees.  Joy.

Ideally, all I'd rather have are the citrus.  The rest I could care less about.  The previous owners didn't pay much heed to a having a sustainable yard from a maintenance perspective, they just crammed as much shit into one area as they could.

[Sand]

Well, for 99% of jobs I've been offered the first offer was always well enough above (2-3k) what I was wanting, so I've a bad habit of doing just that.  As a result I have zero negotiation skills and don't know how to say "yeah, that's not going to do it for me" in any way but blunt. (And looking back probably means that I've been way underpaid for my skills, but hey I was still making more than 90% of my coworkers.)

I'm relatively certain they're not going to come up to what I'd need, either.  8% below what I was making before is what they said they were looking to hire at in the interview and I made it pretty clear then that it was low.  It also turns out to be ~11% below what I'm going to be able to make doing short-term work locally.

I get that they can't come up. Housing is hurting pretty bad and there's a ton of unemployed shmoes who can do the work.  Which is why I'm going for commercial while looking at ways to go back to school (If I can even get in. Go go slacker grades.)  Plus, it's a dead-end and it's the job I sat-down and realized, "shit, I don't want to do this again" during the skills test.

So, what.  Do you just say, "Thanks, but no thanks I've got better leads here." ?

A) Yes, you could probably have negotiated a few more percents added to your salary in the past.
B) You negotiate by saying what you said in your previous post. "I appreciate your offer, and think the work would be challenging and rewarding, but {and then list the your counter offer of higher salary and relocation assistance}.
C) Alternatively if you arent accepting the job send them an email with follow up letter. That says, "I wanted to sincerely express my gratitude and  appreciation for the interview and attractive offer your company has made. Getting to spend time with the staff and learning more about the company was a great experience and it is evident you have a great corporate culture and strong future ahead of you. However, given my past salary history and professional track I must regrettably decline the offer at this time. Thank you."

[Paelos]

<Past negotiation stuff>

Keep in mind that negotiations only work if they are lowballing you and you are coming at it from a point of strength.

Some companies will actually make you a fair offer in a decent market. This is not a decent market. However, sometimes getting in the door is better for a year to keep your resume going forward and then negotiating later at a position of strength.

In your case, I wouldn't say it's worth just getting in the door because of the relocation and general blah of the job, so you are arguing from a different position strength. You have the power to walk away and not care. I would tell them you aren't sure because of all the relocation changes and that you are looking for a figure $10k above what you think is fair saying that's your cost of living now. Then see how they respond.

[FatuousTwat]

During the windstorm on Sunday my plum tree fell down...

For how much I like trees, I fucking hate messing with them.

Yah.  I've taken out a number of trees since moving into our house just due to how much of a pain in the ass they are.


Shoestring Acacia: they planted it in the middle of the yard, blocking the view.  Already one tree in the yard.
Palm tree: So big it was breaking the wall.  No brainer.
Eucalyptus:  These people planted it in an area that would not be able to contain it.  
Chinese elm:  This thing dropped a ton of really small leaves every fall that got into and under everything.  Giant pain in the ass to clean up.  

Down to a lemon, tangelo, african sumac, mimosa, and a palm tree.  Palm tree may get killed.  I really don't like taking care of them and it's in a dumb part of the yard.  Problem is that you have to remove the stump entirely or have it ground down.  Otherwise, scorpions apparently love to make their nests in dead palm trees.  Joy.

Ideally, all I'd rather have are the citrus.  The rest I could care less about.  The previous owners didn't pay much heed to a having a sustainable yard from a maintenance perspective, they just crammed as much shit into one area as they could.

One of the trees I put in uhhhh... Two years ago? Is a silk tree, which I guess is very similar to a mimosa... I really like the look of them.

[Ard]

Keep in mind that negotiations only work if they are lowballing you and you are coming at it from a point of strength.

I would put very good money that you have them over a barrel if they want you to start in under a week.  That reeks of desperation, or insane tunrover to the point where they no longer care about quality.  One works in your favor, the other will make your life hell.  If they won't negotiate, they're in the second category, and you don't want that anyhow.

[Merusk]

It's not really desperation so much as they had a start time they had in mind when I interviewed two weeks ago.  I told them the 21st would be fine then, but that was a 3-week time frame and I expected to hear back by the end of that week... like they'd originally said.  Since I hadn't heard from them I assumed they'd moved on or made the offer to someone else.  I still suspect they offered someone else first and they turned it down and now it's on to me.   Corporate wheels move slowly and all, but not this slow.

Ed: Shit, when it rains it pours, indeed.  I had someone else call me about a job possibility with a local company today.  Now my inner cynic is just waiting for the knock-down from these set-ups putting me off my guard.

[Ironwood]

So I need a little advice on how to tell someone, "Thanks, but no thanks," on a job offer.  Much as I was initially hyped to have the Chicago job lead, they sent me their offer today.  An 8% pay cut with a max bonus of 6% of total pay.  Add that on to moving to a city with a 10% higher cost of living, 23% more expensive housing, no relocation assistance and wanting me to start in 5 days it's a non-starter IMO.   Plus I've got another local interview, have begun doing some non-profit work to get networking and some temporary work is being fed to me here.

I've never had to actually turn down a job before.  No idea whatsoever how to do it or where to even begin crafting a response.  (I figure calling, then writing a follow-up is best.)

Funniest post yet mate.

What you do is you tidy up the contents of this post a little and you submit it to them, either in writing or over the phone.  You sound as if you're turning it down for good reasons and reasons they may even negotiate with you for.

Go to it.  Best to do something if you've set your mind to it, than live in the fear of it.

(I've heard that somewhere before...)

[NowhereMan]

In some parts of Europe, passing on the right even on the freeway/highway is illegal, and I'm a big fan of such laws.

So when somebody is doing 30MPH in the very left hand lane, the entire freeway legally has to slow to 30MPH?

Technically they'd be breaking the law by driving unsafely (i.e. at such a slow speed that they are causing a danger to other traffic) and so you'd hope the police would be appearing for a chat with them. Undertaking is a dangerous practice because you're suddenly greatly increasing the awareness someone needs when driving and reducing the ability of drivers to manoeuvre in an emergency. That is, now you've got to be paying attention to what's going on on your left as well as your right and if there's something going on ahead (like someone crashing or suddenly braking) you can't just pull into the left lane to avoid them since there could well be someone undertaking in that lane. Knowing that the lanes are in a strict order of relative speed is really helpful. In the UK technically you're only meant to be moving into second or third lane in order to overtake someone, once you've overtaken them you're meant to pull back into the left hand lane. Doesn't really happen in practice but the principle is pretty sound, it should always leave space to overtake slower drivers and greatly limits the potential for collisions.

Note, left and right are reversed in the above post since I drive in the UK, which has to be a ridiculous little baby and drive on the different side of the road to most of the world.

[Ironwood]

WE BUILT AN EMPIRE, DAMMIT.

 

[Arthur_Parker]

It's because most people are right handed and you need to be able to draw your sword and fight someone.

[ghost]

What about jousting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uQx35VwUQI

[Cyrrex]

In some parts of Europe, passing on the right even on the freeway/highway is illegal, and I'm a big fan of such laws.

So when somebody is doing 30MPH in the very left hand lane, the entire freeway legally has to slow to 30MPH?

Technically they'd be breaking the law by driving unsafely (i.e. at such a slow speed that they are causing a danger to other traffic) and so you'd hope the police would be appearing for a chat with them. Undertaking is a dangerous practice because you're suddenly greatly increasing the awareness someone needs when driving and reducing the ability of drivers to manoeuvre in an emergency. That is, now you've got to be paying attention to what's going on on your left as well as your right and if there's something going on ahead (like someone crashing or suddenly braking) you can't just pull into the left lane to avoid them since there could well be someone undertaking in that lane. Knowing that the lanes are in a strict order of relative speed is really helpful. In the UK technically you're only meant to be moving into second or third lane in order to overtake someone, once you've overtaken them you're meant to pull back into the left hand lane. Doesn't really happen in practice but the principle is pretty sound, it should always leave space to overtake slower drivers and greatly limits the potential for collisions.

Note, left and right are reversed in the above post since I drive in the UK, which has to be a ridiculous little baby and drive on the different side of the road to most of the world.

Also, because the lane discipline really is so much more ingrained...people just rarely do that particular douche move.  The slow cars stay on the right hand side where they belong, or they will have an absolute shit-ton of people on their asses, a meter off their bumper, flashing lights and honking horns.  Forget trying the bravado American shithead approach...you'll be afraid for your life and move the fuck over.  It just isn't done.

All in all, it makes freeway travel just way better.  Lane changing is waaaaay safer when you can accurately predict the behavior of the guys in the lanes to either side of you.

[Paelos]

It's because most people are right handed and you need to be able to draw your sword and fight someone.

Funny, supposedly for the exact same reason, people started driving on the right side of the road in America. When driving wagons across trails, right-handed people would toss their whips to hit the team out to the right. In order not to hit other passing teams, they would pass on the right.

That's speculation since the origins really aren't known.

[ghost]

It's shocking how hard it is to switch from right side to left side driving.  I rented a car an England and drove for about a hundred yards before I realized it was too much for me and turned it back in. 

[Merusk]

Funniest post yet mate.

What you do is you tidy up the contents of this post a little and you submit it to them, either in writing or over the phone.  You sound as if you're turning it down for good reasons and reasons they may even negotiate with you for.

Go to it.  Best to do something if you've set your mind to it, than live in the fear of it.

(I've heard that somewhere before...)

Funny? I think I'm supposed to be wounded there, but you're a bastard so no worries. 

Thanks for the advice, all.  I did turn it down via e-mail and will be sending a letter in the next day reiterating my reasons and thanks.  As I said, first time I've had to do it so I wanted some more objective advice first.


Lane Discipline:  Is that even taught in the US?  I don't recall it coming up in driver's ed at all.  It was all "Aim High" and "IPDE" training in class.  The closest I recall getting to traffic education was "Use the On ramp to get up to speed, and the off ramp to slow down.  Don't drive to the end of the ramp, stop and then wonder how you're going to get in because you won't.  Don't break on the highway for the offramp because you're going to cause a slowdown/ accident."   Maybe there was a "slow traffic stay to the right" line but that's about it.

I honestly don't think I heard a thing about lane discipline until I was watching a show on the Autobahn way back in the late 90's.

[Fraeg]

Lane Discipline sounds like something from bowling.   "He had poor lane discipline, so we took away his shoes"

[Sky]

I think Lane Discipline is a Sergeant in the Bonehunters.

[Paelos]

Lane discipline is what people in Knoxville want.

[Ironwood]

Lane discipline is what Clark Kent gives to his girlfriend.

[WayAbvPar]

Lane discipline is what Clark Kent gives to his girlfriend.

Should have worked previous Bonehunter remark in here somewhere.

[Morat20]

Lacking any other decent place to post this:

What's the proper way to tell a headhunter/recruiter: "I appreciate the zeal with which you're trying to place me, and earn what I am sure is a nice fee from the company in question, but I'm going to have to decline the in-person interview (after a phone screening from the hiring manager) on the grounds of 'I'd have never even applied for this bloody job, it's an hour+ commute each way and my skills are a poor enough fit for the requirements that I'd feel like I was straight out of college, and the only reason things got to the scheduling an interview phase was because you were pushing the job hard, the salary looked nice, and who says no to a job prospect when they've only got five months left on their own job?""

Without mentioning "In the same time you've been working this, I've had two other phone screenings with companies half as far away that I actually feel like my experience and skills fit the job."

*sigh*. I haven't had a job interview, a real one, since 2001. Shit, I still have long hair (like in a pony tail long. Short hair on me requires too much effort not to stick up in 20 different directions), so trying to set up a face to face interview an hour and 10 minute commute away at 8:30 in the morning tomorrow was just a bridge too far on this.

So now I'm wondering if I turned it down more out of nerves than anything else. But honestly, I think it was the drive. Even the 10 to 20% pay boost wasn't worth that. I'm surprised I got past the phone interview, since half of it was "Used X? Heard of it, never used it".

So back to the point -- are recruiters/head hunters normally this pushy and energetic? Should I have said no earlier? Am I going to be written off by his firm as a flake? I tried to stress that I felt I was a poor fit after having had a few hours to mull over the phone interview, and did not mention the commute other than to state it was not a factor. (He'd mentioned the length of the commute being a major factor in finding prospective employees).

[Chimpy]

If you haven't had a job interview in a long time, and you are not "really interested" in the job, It doesn't hurt to go to the interview just to get rid of some of the jitters/find out the kind of questions people might ask to prepare for interviews for the job you DO want.

Of course, I am in the boat of "unemployed long enough to interview for anything that comes my way and taking the job if offered" so my advice might not be the most pertinent to your situation.

[Morat20]

That's a good point. I'd probably do it, then simply claim a better offer, if it didn't require me to get up at the crack of dawn to drive an hour when I'm on vacation. (I took the week off. Unsuprisingly, it has been full of errands, doctor's visits, phone calls, and friday we're due to scatter my wife's grandmother's ashes which promises to be a very emotional and long day. I am exhausted).

Still, the phone interviews have settled my nerves a little. I think I've had a bit of an incorrect attitude concerning job requirements -- either that, or the developer/software engineer market down here is desperate enough that they're offering tons of on-the-job training.

I just normally get a bit depressed at a lengthy laundry list of "must-haves" that I can answer, at best, half of "Yes, done it regularly for the last ten years" and the rest is "Played with it once" or "used it for one specific problem and then never touched it again, and frankly most of it came from a solution I found on google that worked even if I didn't truly understand or care".

[Merusk]

I've only used a recruiter service once, but yes I found they were very pushy, energetic and sent me on several wild goose chases to things I was only half-qualified or had tangential experience with. (An engineering firm? Really?)   As you mention, they're really out to make that commission on your placement so they'll throw you at anything and any company that might have a chance of hiring you.

On the other hand, so what if you've only played with it once.  I'd kill for on the job training or a company to pay for my training.  I've had to teach myself Revit/ BIM because nobody in my field believes in training.  They all want to hire someone that somebody else has paid to train.  Hell, even when they DO training on software they typically send one guy for 3 days, who then has to come back and train the other 10+ people on it.

[Morat20]

I'm thrilled with on the job training, especially if it gives me stuff I can throw on a resume. On my current job, I almost ended up with a raft of Microsoft systems administrator certs (required to get admin access) but the budget stretched for 4, and I was number 5.

Then again, I watched one of my coworkers run the gauntlet getting it. Ton of extra work.

[Selby]

I've stopped returning several recruiter's calls because of them feeding me such crap jobs or jobs I am not even remotely qualified for.  I tried to screen them as best as I could but one guy started outright misrepresenting the jobs to me and the one time I did a phone interview it was completely obvious I was NOT what they were looking for and it was NOT remotely what I would be interested in.

As far as interviewing goes, I refused to cut my waist length hair and just showed up dressed to kill to several and did my best to woo them with my experience and technical knowledge, even if I didn't have specific experience with what they were looking for (particularly, gas tubes and marx generators which were things I had zero and very little experience with).  Having a bit of charm or as my dad calls it "the gift of gab" helped.  It worked enough to land me my current position.  I even went on interviews to companies I knew I wouldn't want to work for anyways just to get practice.

[Margalis]

So back to the point -- are recruiters/head hunters normally this pushy and energetic?

Recruiting/placement is all about volume, so yes, they are all this pushy.

[ghost]

Short hair on me requires too much effort not to stick up in 20 different directions

You realize that's kind of hip now, right?  You might have backdoored your way into stylishness.  

Edit:  For those of you going on interviews, I suggest that you read this book-

How to Make People Like you in 90 Seconds or Less

It's cheesy, but short and informative.  Even if you know all the information it will get you back in the mindset of impressing people.  It's really designed for salesmen (which I am, kindof) and that is what you will be on the interview.  If the person doing the interview likes you that may be the "foot in the door" that you will need.  I read this about 6 months ago and since I've been doing some of the things in the book I've noted that a lot more people are starting their kids in braces and have great things to say about the office. 

[RhyssaFireheart]

Re: commuting - it depends on the job situation you're in and the metro area, but hour plus commutes aren't the worst thing going, at least not if you like the job you end  up with.  I wasn't overly excited to find out what my commute was going to be but after a year out of work plus the chance to get into the company I'm at now, I consider the commute just something to deal with.  And it's honestly not been that bad.  Plus I'm in Chicagoland, so an hour isn't that insane.

As others have said, if nothing else, go on the interviews for practice.  I was in the same boat with not having interviewed for 10+ years so even the jobs I wasn't certain about, the interviews helped me feel more comfortable.

Good luck though!

[Samwise]

How to Make People Like you in 90 Seconds or Less

NLP, eh?  I've been vaguely interested in that since reading The Game.  Might give it a whirl.   

[ghost]

I don't know if it quite qualifies as NLP, but some of the suggestions definitely work to make people more at ease.  It took me about an hour and a half to read, maybe less. 

[Cyrrex]

That's a good point. I'd probably do it, then simply claim a better offer, if it didn't require me to get up at the crack of dawn to drive an hour when I'm on vacation. (I took the week off. Unsuprisingly, it has been full of errands, doctor's visits, phone calls, and friday we're due to scatter my wife's grandmother's ashes which promises to be a very emotional and long day. I am exhausted).

Still, the phone interviews have settled my nerves a little. I think I've had a bit of an incorrect attitude concerning job requirements -- either that, or the developer/software engineer market down here is desperate enough that they're offering tons of on-the-job training.

I just normally get a bit depressed at a lengthy laundry list of "must-haves" that I can answer, at best, half of "Yes, done it regularly for the last ten years" and the rest is "Played with it once" or "used it for one specific problem and then never touched it again, and frankly most of it came from a solution I found on google that worked even if I didn't truly understand or care".

Couple of things:

- I've interviewed many people and put together many Job Descriptions over the past 5 years...and I can think of exactly zero times that I have met a candidate that meets all of the criteria.  What I'm saying is that these things are often little more than wish lists or guidelines (and hell, sometimes they are spruced up only to meet HR reqs for grading and salary).  Certainly, you need candidates that meet the general criteria, but they never meet them all.  Shit, if they did, I'd be suspicious.
- Given the above, when I am interviewing someone I'm more looking at how this person is as a thinker and a problem solver.  If you don't know Sharepoint (or whatever), do I get a feeling of confidence that you can actually learn it and master it quickly?  I'd much rather have a really sharp person who admits to never having touched it, as opposed to a dime-a-dozen dimwit analyst that claims to be an expert.  The latter guy might fill the short term need, but the former guy has a future.

So, don't dismiss opportunities out of hand just because you don't feel like you check all the boxes.  You're a smart guy, but all accounts.  You can learn it.