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01101010
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Reply #38850 on: July 09, 2019, 06:38:27 PM

Doesn't help that most of these trades are under union codes that require way more than a 4 year education to get a job. Around Pittsburgh you are looking at 4-5 years of apprenticeship before you get to journeyman which means basically you can go work for a master electrician for another few years. Not to mention all the regs you have in that environment.


I'm in the middle of the application process for the IBEW Local 46 electricians here in Seattle. Here are three primary options:
2 year Residential apprenticeship (Jm $28.50/hr)
3 year Low Volt apprenticeship (Jm $36.28/hr)
5 year Inside Wireman (Jm $53.49/hr)(requires 1000hrs residential, 2500hrs commercial, 3000hrs industrial, 1500hrs specialized systems)

I have applied for the 5year program because Jm pays best of the three and the EL01 license basically means I can walk into six figures here in Seattle AND I can do any of the core electrical work I want. The program is fairly competitive, so I have to score well on my math/reading test and my panel interview. Hopefully should have my test later this month and interview next month, if all goes well. I've heard there's around 700 people on the wait list. My hope is having a 4year degree may give me an edge. I mean cost and vendor management was my damn specialty in IT/Dev, so project management will be natural when that time comes.

I know trade work is going to be harder on my health and body - but office work was killing my mind and soul.

I couldn't even qualify the entrance exam... damn red/green color deficiency. Didn't even know I was partially colorblind till I took that test.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Velorath
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Reply #38851 on: July 10, 2019, 01:01:25 AM

Reading the discussion on the last page just leaves me hoping that some of these kids develop a passion for wanting to be an artist, writer, musician, teacher, etc...
Sky
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Reply #38852 on: July 10, 2019, 09:03:16 AM

Because you want them to be poor and miserable?

Morat20
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Reply #38853 on: July 10, 2019, 09:56:32 AM

Fully aware. It's a concern. I tend to be risk-averse as a general rule, so I plan to keep that going on the job. Plumbers actually make the best money in the trades, but... I'm not dealing with people's literal shit on a daily basis. Plumbing in: cool. Plumbing out: nope. Electricians are around the second best paid in the trades. HVAC does surprisingly well, too.
I live in Texas. It's 10:00 AM, it's already in the 90s with 60% humidity. I bet my attic is already above 100 -- no amount of passive venting can really help that.

You literally couldn't pay me enough to do HVAC work down here. Last time my AC went out, it was spring and the guy looked like he'd fallen into a pool by the time he was done with the work, and that was a 30 minute fix -- he was only in my attic for like 10 minutes.
HaemishM
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Reply #38854 on: July 10, 2019, 10:43:47 AM

Doing HVAC work anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon line is just craziness, even in the days before climate change started kicking in. I had to do one serious bit of attic work that summer I worked HVAC, and it was godawful. Maybe a half-hour in the attic was enough for me. There's a reason those guys start out at the ass-crack of dawn. No one should be in a crawlspace during 90 degree days with 90% humidity.

Yegolev
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Reply #38855 on: July 10, 2019, 10:53:07 AM

"Follow your passion" is terrible advice and probably contributes to the lack of tradeworkers. It's probably great advice for people who really are passionate about something, but those people don't need that advice. Everyone else will probably prefer to afford a basic level of existence.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Cyrrex
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Posts: 8500


Reply #38856 on: July 10, 2019, 11:41:15 AM

Kids are different.  Which is a big fat ‘duh’ comment, but really, it means they need to be dealt with differently.  My oldest?  He is a ‘follow your passion’ kind of kid, because he is shockingly self motivated and capable and doesn’t need pushing of any sort.  Which surprises the shit out of me sometimes, because as a small kid we were all but certain he would need to be taken care of for the rest of his life.

My middle kid?  Once said he plans to spend his adult life in jail, because they have TV and can just sleep all day without having to pay rent.  He needs a different approach.  What they need, what they can handle and how you are a part of that....there is no universal recipe, so you should never judge someone’s approach without all the facts.

That said, some people are shitty parents?  I doubt Yeg is one of them.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Yegolev
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Reply #38857 on: July 10, 2019, 12:09:53 PM

I just go with the assumption that someone who is actually concerned with being a good parent is actually a great one.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Yegolev
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2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


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Reply #38858 on: July 10, 2019, 12:15:56 PM

I don't know if this is truly related. Last night our family of 3 went to a restaurant that has a open jazz event every Tuesday. It was incredible to see "normal" people get up on stage and just sing a song or play an instrument in the evolving group. People came, people left, the music continued and it was universally awesome. Some more than others, but basically every person up there obviously invested a non-trivial part of their days to performing. Those people have a passion for music.

I didn't tell my son "I wish you could do that" because it would be forced, at best. I did think that I could be 1/2 to 2/3 as good as those guys if I played an instrument as often as I played video games.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Mandella
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Posts: 1030


Reply #38859 on: July 10, 2019, 12:31:20 PM

Because you want them to be poor and miserable?

I know that was just snark, but art is a perfectly fine trade to be in. Some of the more well-to-do people I know are artists, and I even had the fortune to marry one of them.

You just have to have some modicum of business sense along with your talent and you can be fine in the arts, just like every other profession.

And just to be fashionably cynical, it should be noted that the business sense part can often replace the talent part in artistic success....
schild
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Reply #38860 on: July 10, 2019, 12:39:07 PM

And just to be fashionably cynical, it should be noted that the business sense part can often replace the talent part in artistic success....

The problem is deeper than that. In the pursuit of arts, one isn't discarding business sense - they simply never received any training or ability to ...do business.

The cottage industries around the various arts exist solely and explicitly to leverage the shit out of that - sucking as much blood out of the stone as is humanly possible wherever actual talent may be found.

It's a complete structural failure that begins with high school (actually, I would go as far as saying it begins with parents prior to high school - with opinions like Sky's).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 12:42:16 PM by schild »
Yegolev
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Reply #38861 on: July 10, 2019, 12:52:56 PM

I suppose there is a difference in being an artist and working in the art trade. This is the case in science as well, where you can be a scientist or work in that particular business. It's a bit relevant to the business I find myself in where you have the underpaid government meteorologists at odds with the commercial meteorologists.

Truly, most anyone with any education can turn out to be unprepared for life.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Chimpy
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Reply #38862 on: July 10, 2019, 01:21:12 PM

There are also some really out of whack decisions we have made, as a society, about the value of certain types of work.

Pretty much the entire "high finance" industry are parasites that contribute little, if any, value to society yet their "work" is compensated in a way that is way out of balance with their contribution to society. Especially in contrast to things like nurses, teachers, garbage collectors that have a much more obvious positive impact.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
HaemishM
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Reply #38863 on: July 10, 2019, 01:22:57 PM

As an college graduate with a degree in fine arts, I'd say the biggest problem is that artists were not (and probably still are not) trained in any way by our educational system to handle business. None of my college art classes involved anything like actual trade craft - it was all about the artistry and techniques and philosophy, but nothing about selling art work, or dealing with art brokers, curators or any of the business side. Classes in business finance weren't mandatory for any majors that weren't business (which is again, a failure of the educational system as much as of the individual school).

Paelos
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Reply #38864 on: July 10, 2019, 03:02:29 PM

"Follow your passion" is terrible advice and probably contributes to the lack of tradeworkers. It's probably great advice for people who really are passionate about something, but those people don't need that advice. Everyone else will probably prefer to afford a basic level of existence.

"Follow your passion" is the rallying cry of idiot kids who are still living in their parent's place at 26 because they don't want to get a job. Or they teach yoga on the side while following said passion.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Samwise
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Reply #38865 on: July 10, 2019, 03:07:38 PM

Turns out I'm passionate about not living in a cardboard box.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Paelos
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Reply #38866 on: July 10, 2019, 03:08:00 PM

As an college graduate with a degree in fine arts, I'd say the biggest problem is that artists were not (and probably still are not) trained in any way by our educational system to handle business. None of my college art classes involved anything like actual trade craft - it was all about the artistry and techniques and philosophy, but nothing about selling art work, or dealing with art brokers, curators or any of the business side. Classes in business finance weren't mandatory for any majors that weren't business (which is again, a failure of the educational system as much as of the individual school).

As a person with a degree in business, I'd say this is accurate amongst every major that doesn't directly focus on business.

Doctors and lawyers make tons of money and are highly educated, and they are some of the worst business people I've ever met. I'd give the edge to artists in many cases because they at least understand more of it by necessity. The former groups get so much money they don't think they have to know it because HEY I'M MAKING MUCHO MONEY IT'S FINE. Meanwhile their taxes are crap, their margins are awful, and they have somebody stealing from them because they have no controls.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
HaemishM
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Reply #38867 on: July 10, 2019, 03:22:25 PM

If you are dealing with artists as clients, they have to know it, probably because they had years to learn it on their own or starve (or have to get a "real job"). Doctors are, by comparison, handed shit on a silver platter and don't have an entire industry built off of milking their talents for every penny while paying the producer of said talent as little as possible. It's part of the reason musicians get ripped off by industry people and parasites all the time (well, that and drugs).

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Reply #38868 on: July 10, 2019, 04:39:33 PM

Along these lines, my son is being advised to get a business minor along with the presumed degrees in chemical engineering. My wife thinks it is a good idea because she has one to go with her Interior Design degree, and I think it is a good idea because I'd have gotten a lot of use out of it even as a corporate stooge for the string of global businesses I have worked and continue to work for.

Also I really want to run my own business once I get the financial freedom to do so. Not sure I care what field.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
lamaros
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Reply #38869 on: July 10, 2019, 08:00:14 PM

As a person who was a lazy student (but good learner, and good at math), who has a degrees in English Literature and Publishing (and a discontinued degree in design), and is currently doing an MBA...

Many people will never have good "business sense" or be good with numbers if it's left to college level, or if they just don't have the knack for it. The number of people in my course with commerce backgrounds and jobs in "business" who lack what I would think is common sense to parse the education is... not low.

I might be advantaged by my family business exposure, or genes or whatever, but my lack of business training isn't holding me back. And there is little correlation in the educational backgrounds of the other students and their ability to engage either, from my perspective.

If I was to recommend anything I've learned at a university level to people who need help finding their way in the world I would suggest (a minor in) Philosophy above anything else - problem solving skills and logical rigor seem the things holding most people back from fully getting value from a lot of educational opportunities.

That and learning to love reading at a young age and being able to follow their own curiosity to self directed learning...
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 08:02:26 PM by lamaros »

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Reply #38870 on: July 10, 2019, 08:38:03 PM

That and learning to love reading at a young age and being able to follow their own curiosity to self directed learning...

I remember someone once asking me "how do you KNOW so many things?" (this was someone at work about twenty years my senior) and I thought about it and said that I started reading when I was about 3, and spent most of my childhood reading everything I could.  Most of the random shit I know, if I think back to where I first learned it, is something I read in a book at some point (even after many years of exposure to Wikipedia).

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
lamaros
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Reply #38871 on: July 10, 2019, 09:12:35 PM

That and learning to love reading at a young age and being able to follow their own curiosity to self directed learning...

I remember someone once asking me "how do you KNOW so many things?" (this was someone at work about twenty years my senior) and I thought about it and said that I started reading when I was about 3, and spent most of my childhood reading everything I could.  Most of the random shit I know, if I think back to where I first learned it, is something I read in a book at some point (even after many years of exposure to Wikipedia).

Yep, this was one of my favourites as a young kid: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3616248-how-is-it-done

Expect poison from the standing water.
01101010
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Posts: 10882

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #38872 on: July 11, 2019, 08:14:50 AM

University I work for as a data manager put out a formal email from the vice chancellor praising the board of trustees approval to the operating budget that includes "the highest salary increase for faculty and staff since 2015 and will address the increasing demands on the competition for employment in our area. To that end, staff making under $47k will get a whopping 2.5% salary increase and those over that mark get a 2% increase. In addition to that, if you are eligible for a merit based increase, you can expect up to a 0.5% additional increase.  The whole email is written in the tone of how wonderful and merciful our chancellor and trustees are being to us lowly commoners.  Ohhhhh, I see.

And these asshats wonder why employee retention is only about 2 years.

In other news, I am working on the second pass to my resume now that my wife is done smoothing off the rough spots.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
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Reply #38873 on: July 11, 2019, 09:19:50 AM

Along these lines, my son is being advised to get a business minor along with the presumed degrees in chemical engineering. My wife thinks it is a good idea because she has one to go with her Interior Design degree, and I think it is a good idea because I'd have gotten a lot of use out of it even as a corporate stooge for the string of global businesses I have worked and continue to work for.

Also I really want to run my own business once I get the financial freedom to do so. Not sure I care what field.
Trust me, even with success - after about 5 years, you'll care what field its in.

Edit: Actually, your threshold for pain and bullshit is probably even lower than mine, I give you 3-4 years.
Paelos
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Reply #38874 on: July 11, 2019, 10:36:14 AM

University I work for as a data manager put out a formal email from the vice chancellor praising the board of trustees approval to the operating budget that includes "the highest salary increase for faculty and staff since 2015 and will address the increasing demands on the competition for employment in our area. To that end, staff making under $47k will get a whopping 2.5% salary increase and those over that mark get a 2% increase. In addition to that, if you are eligible for a merit based increase, you can expect up to a 0.5% additional increase.  The whole email is written in the tone of how wonderful and merciful our chancellor and trustees are being to us lowly commoners.  Ohhhhh, I see.

And these asshats wonder why employee retention is only about 2 years.

In other news, I am working on the second pass to my resume now that my wife is done smoothing off the rough spots.

Heh, a 2% increase. Average salary increases in America in 2019 are expected to be 3%, mostly as a response to retention. And even that won't work because at a certain point, employees have started to look around and think, "You know what? Fuck this place I can get 20% more on the open market right now."

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
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Yegolev
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Reply #38875 on: July 11, 2019, 10:40:40 AM

If I was to recommend anything I've learned at a university level to people who need help finding their way in the world I would suggest (a minor in) Philosophy above anything else - problem solving skills and logical rigor seem the things holding most people back from fully getting value from a lot of educational opportunities.

This advice sounds great.

Trust me, even with success - after about 5 years, you'll care what field its in.

Edit: Actually, your threshold for pain and bullshit is probably even lower than mine, I give you 3-4 years.

I instinctively know you are right. Fortunately (?) it's not possible for me at the moment to try it.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
01101010
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10882

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #38876 on: July 11, 2019, 11:05:13 AM

Heh, a 2% increase. Average salary increases in America in 2019 are expected to be 3%, mostly as a response to retention. And even that won't work because at a certain point, employees have started to look around and think, "You know what? Fuck this place I can get 20% more on the open market right now."

Which is partially why I am getting the fuck out of this sweatshop. This place just is not competitive in any way to anything even in the area - unless you take advantage of the tuition benefits which I am not. Hell, my wife is a contractor who was placed by a temp agency and makes about $4k more than me a year (granted, she doesn't have any bells and whistles with her job, but that is what I am covering with my job).

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
schild
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Reply #38877 on: July 11, 2019, 11:12:55 AM

mercenary economy
Sky
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Reply #38878 on: July 11, 2019, 11:43:51 AM

We call our pensions the 'velvet handcuffs'. Locks us both into state jobs, and I'd rather live humbly than get into that cesspool.

Paelos
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Reply #38879 on: July 11, 2019, 12:05:26 PM

mercenary economy

I don't mind being a hired gun at all. Loyalty to the company is a thing of the past, mostly because companies weren't ever loyal to the workers. If it was based on mutual respect, we wouldn't be here. Also, I treat my employers with the same respect they give me. If that's a lot of respect, I stick around. If it's not? I have other places that will.

Now that workers are slowly beginning to realize there's a massive shortage of talent, they are taking advantage. And guess what? That derth is only going to get bigger as these boomers leave, get forced out, or die out of the workplace.

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calapine
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Reply #38880 on: July 15, 2019, 04:56:46 AM

Korean women crushed 64-0 by Hungary at world water polo

https://www.france24.com/en/20190714-korean-women-crushed-64-0-hungary-world-water-polo

"After that it quickly became hard to follow the score as the goals poured in at a rate of roughly one every thirty seconds in the 32 minute match. "

Wow.

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #38881 on: July 15, 2019, 09:24:10 AM

They put together the team with a bunch of swimmers they called a month before? I mean what the hell is the point of even playing if you're going to have that much disdain for the event? That's the fault of the managers not the players.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Sky
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Reply #38882 on: July 15, 2019, 10:16:55 AM

f13 Korean Women's Water Polo Team

Let's make it happen!

Yegolev
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Reply #38883 on: July 15, 2019, 11:43:38 AM

I'm reading Leaders Eat Last and Sinek provides his analysis on the reason for the current state of mercenary corporate (and other) life. Spoiler: It's the Boomers.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Cyrrex
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Posts: 8500


Reply #38884 on: July 15, 2019, 12:52:45 PM

Chances are if something is wrong, you can trace it back to the boomers.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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