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Khaldun
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Reply #38815 on: July 03, 2019, 07:45:49 PM

Well, it's red...
Abagadro
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Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #38816 on: July 03, 2019, 08:51:58 PM


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Lucas
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Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


Reply #38817 on: July 04, 2019, 01:59:22 AM


" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Yegolev
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Reply #38818 on: July 04, 2019, 08:28:32 AM

No, everyone thinks that their choices are the best.

My wife at least acknowledges some of her limitations and doesn't insist on being allowed to park in the garage.

The boy is going through driving school right now. Good marks, he's very careful but needs experience. I bought a safe car for him (that I can use also) since his job is to excel in academics rather than learn how to work. Although next summer he might get be given a job painting at my wife's company over the summer... mostly as a demonstration of what life will be like if he flops academically.

You're joking right?

I'm not, but I could have phrased that poorly. Let me know what part is wrong. I did mean "work" like an after-school job which would compete with his time doing homework or participating in school clubs. I get the idea that other kids have "normal" amounts of free time in the evening but not this guy. If he had to flip burgers at Waffle House (as a good friend of his does) then it would subtract from his academics, which is unacceptable.

The school counselor seems to think we are being tough on him, too. Which she would, working in academia.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Reg
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Reply #38819 on: July 04, 2019, 09:03:57 AM

I think it's the part about teaching him to consider manual labourers an underclass that some people might have been  a little surprised by.
Samwise
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Reply #38820 on: July 04, 2019, 10:07:51 AM

I'd wager most of us on this board went to college so we could get cushy jobs that don't involve doing manual labor for low pay.  Acknowledgement of that preference doesn't mean you consider manual laborers to be an "underclass".

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
HaemishM
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Reply #38821 on: July 04, 2019, 10:48:41 AM

Yeah, don't ever think my preference for cushy office jobs over manual labor had anything to do with viewing laborers as an underclass. Fuck. No. I look at dude's like ditch diggers, retail workers, fast food workers, etc. as people who are WAY underpaid for doing jobs I could not physically handle. "The world needs ditch diggers," is true, but it also undervalues the shit out of those people too.

MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #38822 on: July 04, 2019, 01:23:44 PM

I actually worked in construction (roofing and framing carpenter) for a while in my teens. It can pay pretty decently, as can other hard and dangerous work (I also did a season on a fishing boat, and I've been the IT geek for oil rigs so I've seen that work up close). But standing on a roof when it is 104 in the shade on the ground, and you're on a black roof making it blacker slopping around 350+ degree tar with a mop, while watching people walk into the office to sit at desks, drink cold water, in air conditioned comfort, can make you reassess the quality of your life choices.

People who work in the trades aren't an underclass, but most of them didn't have a choice for work that wasn't as physically hard.

--Dave

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rattran
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Unreasonable


Reply #38823 on: July 05, 2019, 05:55:39 AM

I do far too much physical labor and construction in my retailish/self-employed job.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #38824 on: July 05, 2019, 06:56:48 AM

I actually worked in construction (roofing and framing carpenter) for a while in my teens. It can pay pretty decently, as can other hard and dangerous work (I also did a season on a fishing boat, and I've been the IT geek for oil rigs so I've seen that work up close). But standing on a roof when it is 104 in the shade on the ground, and you're on a black roof making it blacker slopping around 350+ degree tar with a mop, while watching people walk into the office to sit at desks, drink cold water, in air conditioned comfort, can make you reassess the quality of your life choices.

In the summer of 89 I split my time with a road construction company between site work (being out on the road) and plant work (working at a quarry/crusher facility). It was actually really interesting getting to work at the plant, because I did a little of everything. At one point I was working with the construction garage (where I learned to drive ANYTHING) early on, they decided to test the new kid with the worst projects they could imagine. I had a blast, but it did get rough at times, like the week in July when it was high 90s, high humidity, and I was putting down a new layer of aluminum paint over the metal roof on the massive garage complex.

Climbing up 2 story ladders with a couple 5gal buckets of aluminum paint, then having that summer sun reflected back so I got burned on both sides, all while trying not to slip off because there was no such thing as safety back then.
Khaldun
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Reply #38825 on: July 05, 2019, 04:18:38 PM

Working as a cook for a year was great; I was in no hurry to continue arriving at my workplace at 4am on Saturday morning in order to cut and bake by myself roughly 200 baguettes from the dough I'd made at 6pm the night before.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #38826 on: July 06, 2019, 09:49:23 AM

I'll never understand people who willingly work in food service! Well, I know one guy who is a decorated bigwig chef up in CO, but he's basically being paid to do what he did here in Upstate NY when we weere kids: hunt, forage, fish, cook, repeat. It's really cool seeing him thrive, he's always hosting AAA clients but mostly posts pics of cool shit he finds in the woods.

But that's kind of a different thing from most chef gigs.
lamaros
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Reply #38827 on: July 07, 2019, 01:50:24 AM

No, everyone thinks that their choices are the best.

My wife at least acknowledges some of her limitations and doesn't insist on being allowed to park in the garage.

The boy is going through driving school right now. Good marks, he's very careful but needs experience. I bought a safe car for him (that I can use also) since his job is to excel in academics rather than learn how to work. Although next summer he might get be given a job painting at my wife's company over the summer... mostly as a demonstration of what life will be like if he flops academically.

You're joking right?

I'm not, but I could have phrased that poorly. Let me know what part is wrong. I did mean "work" like an after-school job which would compete with his time doing homework or participating in school clubs. I get the idea that other kids have "normal" amounts of free time in the evening but not this guy. If he had to flip burgers at Waffle House (as a good friend of his does) then it would subtract from his academics, which is unacceptable.

The school counselor seems to think we are being tough on him, too. Which she would, working in academia.

I don't know your situation or kid, but such a rigid focus on studies would not have been good for me, nor really advantaged me in what options I have in a career.

Hopefully you kid doesn't feel (too much) like you're tough on him, or that he's missing out. I guess that'd be what I'd worry about the most.
Teleku
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Reply #38828 on: July 07, 2019, 08:45:28 AM

It was the same for me, I was prohibited from having a job growing up as well.  My job was to get good grades and get into college so I didn't end up like every single other failure of a human that is all of my cousins.  I remain very thankful for that!   awesome, for real

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
schild
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Reply #38829 on: July 07, 2019, 08:56:10 AM

I wanted to get a job when I was 15. It wasn't a great job and it paid minimum wage. But I didn't need to be threatened with "this is how poors live and this is what your life will be if you're a dipshit in school" or whatever.

I feel like if a kid can't figure that out on their own they're already screwed.

Also, if my parents had made me work menial labor for a summer to teach me about a shitty life they would've woken up to a bed full of sharp glass.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 09:00:03 AM by schild »
Polysorbate80
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Reply #38830 on: July 07, 2019, 12:21:43 PM

For us it wasn’t “go to college or get stuck with a shit job”

It was “you want to go to college?  Better go get a goddamn job then”

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Yegolev
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Reply #38831 on: July 08, 2019, 09:09:09 AM

Parenting is hard. awesome, for real

Applying what I was like, I think the boy won't suffer from some applied-motivation, but as speculated above: he is aware that he isn't cut out for working boring jobs and is far from an athlete. Fine, he doesn't have to do a sport (after trying several) as long as he concentrates on something. I'm on board with him doing a grueling job (painting) simply for perspective, which is itself a very valuable experience. For example, it would humanize these "underclasses" which he might not otherwise interact with. Not that he is the sort of person to mistreat people.

Probably the biggest real incentive is that we keep telling him if he wants to continue the lifestyle we are showing him now, he will have to be financially successful. I also like to confuse him by pointing out that money won't make you happy, just look at all the miserable fucks who have all the material wealth they want. Contentment is underrated. But if he wants to have filets for dinner, he needs to get that cash. If he wants to sleep at night, do something he enjoys.

I'm glad I'm not a teenager anymore.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Paelos
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Reply #38832 on: July 08, 2019, 10:47:49 AM

My father stuck me on a land surveying job in the Texas summer to give me an idea of what it was like to work outside for a living. I decided I didn't want that and worked harder in school so I could graduate from my college with decent grades.

That being said, I did work for a construction company as an accountant, and a foreman level construction worker makes more than a mid-tier accountant at most firms. If you can make Superintendent you can make 6 figures.

It's not an underclass but there is a massive cultural divide in blue collar versus white collar. The average blue collar guys I met are almost always paycheck to paycheck, smoke like chimneys, have major issues with authority in general, and are usually moonlighting in addition to their regular jobs so they can make ends meet.

That being said they were incredibly family oriented, usually extremely hard-working, and they were very loyal to the other men on the job. If they thought the company was being unfair they would go to bat for each other.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Salamok
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Reply #38833 on: July 08, 2019, 10:48:01 AM

You all are making it sound like the choices are 4.8GPA->serious degree at a serious college or fast food cook.   I totally get the we will fund your life while you take your education seriously approach but as a parent I would be pretty happy with an outcome of any monetizable degree from any accredited college w/o student loans.  Then again my child isn't exactly academically exceptional so attempting to force that to happen at this point would be hell for everyone involved.
Yegolev
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Reply #38834 on: July 08, 2019, 11:57:01 AM

I'm summarizing because these are internet forum posts, so yeah.

People at my wife's company without highschool diplomas make more than I do in some cases. My boy can choose to do that if he wants, but if so then we can skip that college tuition. He wants to be a chemical engineer, though.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #38835 on: July 08, 2019, 01:33:13 PM

You all are making it sound like the choices are 4.8GPA->serious degree at a serious college or fast food cook.   I totally get the we will fund your life while you take your education seriously approach but as a parent I would be pretty happy with an outcome of any monetizable degree from any accredited college w/o student loans.  Then again my child isn't exactly academically exceptional so attempting to force that to happen at this point would be hell for everyone involved.

That's why early career counseling for kids over 16 is so important imo. There's organizations that do a great job testing the kid to figure out their strengths, and if college is even the right path for them. Honestly, in this day and age I'm a pretty big advocate that 4 years of tuition and student loans is a giant waste of time for most degree options.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Salamok
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Reply #38836 on: July 09, 2019, 07:27:04 AM

You all are making it sound like the choices are 4.8GPA->serious degree at a serious college or fast food cook.   I totally get the we will fund your life while you take your education seriously approach but as a parent I would be pretty happy with an outcome of any monetizable degree from any accredited college w/o student loans.  Then again my child isn't exactly academically exceptional so attempting to force that to happen at this point would be hell for everyone involved.

That's why early career counseling for kids over 16 is so important imo. There's organizations that do a great job testing the kid to figure out their strengths, and if college is even the right path for them. Honestly, in this day and age I'm a pretty big advocate that 4 years of tuition and student loans is a giant waste of time for most degree options.

Mine is 12 and struggles to get A's and B's but manages to squeak by (with the occasional C), seems like she is starting to become a bit more focused hopefully that trend continues.  If she is careful she has enough in her 529 to get through college, trying to talk her into 2 years at a Austin Community College doing the feeder program into UT.  Last I checked a 3.6ish gpa in ACC's UT program will get you in as a junior which is much more achievable for her than the 4.8+ gpa it would take to start as a freshman. 
Hawkbit
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Reply #38837 on: July 09, 2019, 08:07:05 AM

My daughter is 14. Her grades are hit or miss, mostly because she doesn’t fight for her grades. I think she’s turning a corner now that she’s a hs Freshman and knows this goes on her record. That said, I’ve been pretty clear that there are many avenues to success. Uni is one, though I’ve seen a fair share of dysfunctional employees that only went to school and didn’t work. I have been talking the trades with her a bit too, supplemented with community college of course.  I’m very impressed she signed up for auto tech this summer school. Of course she’s the only female in the class but I think she likes it a lot.

Her generation will be expected to work to 72 and I think it’s a bit much to ask someone to do the same work for 50+ years. I’m just trying to make sure she can support herself without anyone’s help.
Yegolev
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Reply #38838 on: July 09, 2019, 09:33:38 AM

It would be great if we hadn't developed some sort of stigma against tradeworkers today. Have you tried to hire a decent carpenter/mason/HVAC/electrician lately? The ones I can find have more work than they can conceivably tackle and themselves cannot find employees. Skills are being lost in society.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Chimpy
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Reply #38839 on: July 09, 2019, 10:01:18 AM

It would be great if we hadn't developed some sort of stigma against tradeworkers today. Have you tried to hire a decent carpenter/mason/HVAC/electrician lately? The ones I can find have more work than they can conceivably tackle and themselves cannot find employees. Skills are being lost in society.

This is the negative side to the hardcore “OMG we need more STEM focus in schools!” and “Everyone must go to college to get a job!” line that has been pushed for the last couple decades. And it isn’t just in the trades. The arts are being savaged by the same mindset that engineering is the only type of education that matters.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
01101010
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Reply #38840 on: July 09, 2019, 11:17:42 AM

Doesn't help that most of these trades are under union codes that require way more than a 4 year education to get a job. Around Pittsburgh you are looking at 4-5 years of apprenticeship before you get to journeyman which means basically you can go work for a master electrician for another few years. Not to mention all the regs you have in that environment.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #38841 on: July 09, 2019, 11:35:02 AM

I'm happy I can do my own electrical work because holy shit it's impossible to find a competent contractor. I've given up on renovating my house further because there just isn't anyone who can do the work properly in my area. When I can halfass my way through projects and have them end up exceeding code while in the next room a contractor is slopping shit to barely meet it...

If I had it to do again, I'd have followed my stepdad's advice and apprenticed to his contracting company.

fake edit: the thing about trade apprenticeship is that you make money while you learn, vs accruing a ton of debt to graduate with a degree that is most likely unrelated to the field you'll actually work in.
HaemishM
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Reply #38842 on: July 09, 2019, 11:42:54 AM

Competent home construction contractors of any type are like goddamn Holy Grails. If you ever find one, you have to hang onto him like grim death.

Shitty ones, though? They are LEGION.

Rasix
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Reply #38843 on: July 09, 2019, 12:33:35 PM

Don't forget the grifters. Some of our friends are currently on year 2(3?) of their home addition after their contracted builder was caught running a ponzi scheme with different home renovations around the city. So, they're getting a new builder, but they're still looking at a late December move in. Plus they've been in legal hell for well over a year.

I really need to touch base with the contractors that were used in our build. Unfortunately our metalworker (fence guy) moved back to Michigan. He did great work and was substantially cheaper than others. Things I won't be able to do any decent maintenance on are probably going to need maintenance soon.

Can't really use our GC ever again. He did a great job with our home build. A bit over budget but well on schedule. A home build like that frays relationships, and I don't think my wife wants to see him or his family ever again (we were friends at some point).




-Rasix
Samwise
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Reply #38844 on: July 09, 2019, 01:01:03 PM

The last GC I hired turned out to be one of those grifters; they'd close down their business every year or so and reopen under a new name so the bad Yelp reviews wouldn't stick to them.  I should have known something was up when I'd call their office and they'd say "this is the construction company" rather than "this is Lyons Construction" or whatever fake name they'd initially contacted me under.  Too hard to keep track, I guess.  Facepalm

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Hawkbit
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Like a Klansman in the ghetto.


Reply #38845 on: July 09, 2019, 01:24:10 PM

Doesn't help that most of these trades are under union codes that require way more than a 4 year education to get a job. Around Pittsburgh you are looking at 4-5 years of apprenticeship before you get to journeyman which means basically you can go work for a master electrician for another few years. Not to mention all the regs you have in that environment.


I'm in the middle of the application process for the IBEW Local 46 electricians here in Seattle. Here are three primary options:
2 year Residential apprenticeship (Jm $28.50/hr)
3 year Low Volt apprenticeship (Jm $36.28/hr)
5 year Inside Wireman (Jm $53.49/hr)(requires 1000hrs residential, 2500hrs commercial, 3000hrs industrial, 1500hrs specialized systems)

I have applied for the 5year program because Jm pays best of the three and the EL01 license basically means I can walk into six figures here in Seattle AND I can do any of the core electrical work I want. The program is fairly competitive, so I have to score well on my math/reading test and my panel interview. Hopefully should have my test later this month and interview next month, if all goes well. I've heard there's around 700 people on the wait list. My hope is having a 4year degree may give me an edge. I mean cost and vendor management was my damn specialty in IT/Dev, so project management will be natural when that time comes.

I know trade work is going to be harder on my health and body - but office work was killing my mind and soul.
Paelos
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Reply #38846 on: July 09, 2019, 01:57:46 PM

Yeah the only downside of the electrician world is that if you move into serious money territory you also move into seriously endangering your life.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Samwise
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Reply #38847 on: July 09, 2019, 02:06:21 PM

Quote
I know trade work is going to be harder on my health and body - but office work was killing my mind and soul.

I'm kinda jealous.  Do you make okay money (more importantly, do you get health benefits) as an apprentice?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Hawkbit
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Posts: 5531

Like a Klansman in the ghetto.


Reply #38848 on: July 09, 2019, 02:23:58 PM

Yeah the only downside of the electrician world is that if you move into serious money territory you also move into seriously endangering your life.

Fully aware. It's a concern. I tend to be risk-averse as a general rule, so I plan to keep that going on the job. Plumbers actually make the best money in the trades, but... I'm not dealing with people's literal shit on a daily basis. Plumbing in: cool. Plumbing out: nope. Electricians are around the second best paid in the trades. HVAC does surprisingly well, too.

Pay is done on step. It starts poor, gets better. Yes to benefits. Here's Local 46's wage report: https://ibew46.com/media/2554/020419-080319_wire_wage_report.pdf

Starts at $22.47 and goes up every 6-12 months, but that's after dues, benefits, pension, vacation. First few years will be rough for me, but my wife makes a very good salary and we'll be good. Of course, any union work can come/go, so being unemployed is possible. Also a concern is being worked too much; I have heard stories of 12 hour days, 7 days a week. Of course, time and a half after eight hours and double after ten hours won't hurt.

Cost me $75 to apply and another $10 to have my college transcripts sent.
Salamok
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Reply #38849 on: July 09, 2019, 03:03:33 PM

Well if Abbott fails at his Trump style "I don't need no laws I'm allowed to just make it up as I go along" approach to remedying the fact that the state legislature couldn't be bothered to extend the life of the state board of plumbing examiners all you folks envying the trades can just move to Texas and call yourself a plumber.
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