Useless Conversation

[rattran]

Didn't get the house. Probably best in the long run as it gives me time to save up a bit more. I don't have any sort if deadline to meet or anything.

If you are still looking in a month or 2 keep an eye on it and repeat the same offer.

Better, repeat the offer, only 5% less.

[craan]

Really frustrating day.  I feel completely worthless.

I had a second interview with a company and they gave me a small programming exercise to do while they watched.  The problem was write a function to determine if a number is a leap year.

I was so nervous.  I am not sure what happened.  I even typed out the definition of a leap year in comments so I could use it as a guide while i wrote the function.  But I just...shut off?  I think I went on auto-pilot and never looked back and what I wrote ended up not even covering all the requirements of the problem.  I didn't even check it over when I finished just said something like 'There you go.'.  My hands were trembling so much I couldn't even type correctly.

After we hung up, I went and threw up.  After some water, I sat down and wrote out the function correctly.  Or, at least, it passed all the leap year dates I gave it.  But within about 15 minutes of the end of the interview they'd already emailed me their decision not to hire.  Which didn't make me feel any worse since I'd already thrown up and made a much better effort at the problem sitting alone in the quiet.  I just...I don't know.  I looked like a complete tool.  I don't think I'm a complete tool.  But fuck did I look like one.

I don't know what happened.  I've built several web apps for law enforcement and government agencies and have been in meetings with White house reps and FBI geeks explaining the ins and outs of data entry systems I've coded.  And I've never had a reaction like this before.  Or done so utterly poorly.

I guess its good though.  It sure purged any arrogance I had.  But now what?  Do I refresh the programming basics?  Is that even possible?  How can I build, front to back, systems used by hundreds of people and then freeze on figuring out a leap year?  Maybe I should take up landscaping.  Am I even really a programmer?  I thought I was.

I feel like what I would imagine it would feel like to wake up one morning and be blind.  Things were fine and then oops you have no sight.  So here I am little programmer/developer fresh off releasing an app in the App Store (its a quiz app but relatively simple code powers it) and suddenly BAM haha leap year?  What is code?  Ugh.

Hell of a way to start the week.

[Merusk]

You psyched yourself out. Everyone does it at some point.  Fuck, if I have someone looking over my shoulder while I'm trying to draw a simple plan I'll often fumble-finger basic shit.  It shouldn't break you to the point of second-guessing your shit like this.  What's the bigger issue here? Unemployed for a while now and nervous?

[Salamok]

Don't beat yourself up over it.  Sometimes it is tough to perform against the clock or in front of an audience and the only people that have a leap year equation memorized are calendar geeks and students/recent grads.  I wouldn't have even tried to figure it out that way, then again in php or C you could use strtotime and ask it what date 02/01/xxxx + 28 days was or something and I couldn't tell you the syntax w/o google or my IDE backing me up.  Plus I am probably only thinking of that because there isn't any pressure on me, go on more interviews is all I can say they get much easier as you acclimate to that environment.

[Hawkbit]

I'm about a year off from graduating and recently picked up this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Coding-Interview-Programming-Questions/dp/098478280X/ref=sr_1_1_ha?ie=UTF8&qid=1367890887&sr=8-1&keywords=cracking+the+coding+interview

It was written by ex-Google people and goes fairly in depth about the interview process.  Most importantly, it sets up series of potential interview questions and coding brain teasers.  I didn't buy it to learn to code every question in the book, but to see what the potential questions might be coming at me.  

And yeah, I totally agree with Merusk.  You know you can do this, just try again next time.  Or, give this place 3 months and apply again.  Don't give up though.

I'm 37, will be 38 when I'm done with my degree and I look at these guys I work with that are 25 and can code circles around me.  I already feel like an old dog and I am concerned with how well I'll transition.  But letting that doubt slip into my brain is really dangerous for confidence.  I have to keep telling myself it will work out, likely not the way I expect.  

[craan]

Its been about 8 months of being unemployed.  That said, its been me working on my own projects.  Such as picking up Objective-C and banging out an iOS app.

Definitely nervous but I don't remember ever completely shutting down like that before.  I mean, usually I start babbling and go off on unrelated technical tangents and then eventually work my way back to the topic with an answer.  So I can be quite long-winded but if you stick with me and don't fall asleep I get you an answer.

The shock of shutting down just rattled me.  But knowing it happened I can work on it and plan around it.

And a few things to work on have already come to mind that seem rather obvious now.  A few more GitHub examples of some programs so they can look at code I've written so I can say 'Hey, look at that awesome code'.  Program screenshots that I can display and write about on Wordpress site to showcase my stuff.

[Paelos]

Happened to me once when I botched a simple deferred revenue question in an interview. It was about 8 months into my unemployment and I just went dead blank.

Taught me something about myself though. I went back to the books and realized I knew what I was doing, I just didn't know how to interview for my next level job. What really helped me was learning to research more on the front end of every job, and focus not so much on the questions they might ask, but the questions I could ask them about the job.

[Chimpy]

How long has it been since you have had an interview, craan?

I know when I was unemployed, the nervousness really got to me in interviews after a while and I bombed a couple pretty badly, a couple of which were jobs I really wanted at the time.

It is really difficult when you are certain you are perfectly qualified for a position and you go into the interview and they throw you a question that you could usually answer blindfolded and you blow it from a combination of nerves and some other weird fucking karma.

Keep at it, eventually you will land something. I should know, I was in a sad state of affairs and now I am sitting in a job making more than I could have possibly imagined myself in. Perseverance does pay off, it just is sometimes an agonizing process to go through. This is coming from someone who is a pessimist by nature.

[Margalis]

Really frustrating day.  I feel completely worthless.

Doing on-the-spot work with a time limit is the kind of thing that can quickly snowball out of control. You get off to a bad start, then you worry about how you look, how much time is left, etc.

Personally I hate doing it and I don't think it's a great way to interview someone. I *really* hate when people give interviews where they ask you to "think out loud" and blab about the question. That's not how I operate, or how normal people solve problems most of the time.

I think if you ask someone to program something as you watch what you are testing is less what kind of programmer they are and more how they respond to that sort of situation - a situation that is completely irrelevant to the job you are hiring for.

My best advice is interview for some places you don't really care about. It's not that different from dating, the more invested you are the more you put pressure on yourself.

[Paelos]

I agree, and I think that spot-quizzing hire-es is a sign of a bad interviewer. Talking about prior projects, describing the ways you solved problems, and that line of questioning is going to produce more results than just firing off random minutia knowledge. Plus, what if a guy freezes up but he's a solid worker under normal circumstances? You're never asked to perform a task in front of someone like it's a performance art piece. You've then eliminated someone because they don't have an extremely esoteric skill that they will never use again.

[ezrast]

while they watched

Yeah, this would utterly fuck my shit up. I'm not a professional programmer or anything but when I do code it generally looks like a monkey wrote it until I hit compile and have to fix like 32 compiler errors in the first five lines because I used the wrong language's IO paradigm or something. Takes like 30 seconds to fix but I would wig the fuck out if someone were to be judging me based on it.

[Selby]

Hell of a way to start the week.

If it makes you feel better I did the same thing during my thesis defense.  Was asked a simple question, wrote out the equation, did the math, stepped back and said "hmm, something doesn't look right..." to which the committee head said "that's because you're doing it wrong."  You can imagine how the next 45 minutes went after starting off so well...

[craan]

Thanks for the encouraging words and the book link.  I feel a lot better and have some action items to work on and learned a bit about myself so yay.

Let's see...the last time I interviewed was sometime in 1997.  I have been working with the same boss since then.  He interviewed me, in fact, way back then.  I called him today to vent my frustrations about today and he laughed and said basically said 'their loss' since there are a few opportunities he's been working on and it looks like I might be brought back on in a few months.  At least I don't have to interview with him since he's been reviewing my code for 15 years. 

During my time I've migrated in an out of program and tech lead positions and have been the one doing interviews of nervous people.  What I was more interested in hearing from a potential candidate was a description of how they would go about building 'x'.  As in, I would ask, 'So the CEO thinks it would be neat to see a list of all the projects we're working on and how close to completion they are.  Also he wants to see who is working on a particular project, how many hours have been spent, and get an email every morning with a summary.  How would you build this?'.

I think listening to someone describe something like that and see them sketching out things and asking requirements questions gives you a better feeling of what the person is capable of.

Again, thank you for the encouragement. 

[Abagadro]

Every time they come on my Pandora I'm reminded how awesome The Cars were.

[ghost]

Every time they come on my Pandora I'm reminded how awesome The Cars were.

They really were an underrated band.  I hope you haven't listened to their new album, though.   

[Merusk]

I bought their hits CD a few years back and it's been on my iPod ever since.  I've considered picking up the first few albums to see if any of the B-sides were as good as You Might Think, Drive and Magic.

[Cheddar]

Worst interview I ever had was for a PM spot with a tax company.  Interview was going stellar; had them laughing, my answers were spot on, etc.  Then they asked me if I was an advanced expert on SQL; I answered honestly (I know enough to be dangerous and tinker but not sit down and design).  All of a sudden things got cold and quiet.

See- the company I had hired to help me find positions had put on my resume that I was an expert with SQL.

I was mortified and obviously did not get the position.  Nothing like looking like a liar at your interview!

[Paelos]

Whoops. That's a good one.

My worst interview ever was one where they guy interviewing me told me up front he was leaving in a month.

[Merusk]

I've heard enough of that happening that I would think a good practice to follow is asking to see the resume the interviewing company had been sent to be sure such nonsense hadn't happened.   Especially in tech where most of those stories seem to come from.

[Khaldun]

My oral exams in graduate school were so traumatically bad that I still have a bit of PTSD from them. One of the three professors grilling me was basically determined to fail me before we even started because I was stupid enough to disagree with a pet theory of his in my written exam (I was still dim-witted enough to think that was a good thing that educators were supposed to encourage). It was one of those nightmares where no matter what you say is wrong, no matter how you say it. Very bad scene.

[Ironwood]

My recent interview experience is in the job thread.  Fairly brutal and annoyed me for a while.

Don't let the bastards grind you down mate.  We all have off days.  Even me.

And I'm a God.

[Engels]

I can't type in my password if someone's looking at me sideways across the plaza, much less create a freakin' equation on the fly. Chin up, yer human, like the rest of us.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Ugh - vegan v. meat-eaters fight on my G+ feed.  The sanctimony is just oozing from a few posters and I'm feeling bad for the OP, because all he did was post an awesome pic of some vegan pizza he had last night (looked really yummie).

[Paelos]

Ugh - vegan v. meat-eaters fight on my G+ feed.  The sanctimony is just oozing from a few posters and I'm feeling bad for the OP, because all he did was post an awesome pic of some vegan pizza he had last night (looked really yummie).

How do you make pizza with no eggs or cheese?

[Trippy]

It's easy. You leave out the eggs (? regular pizza dough doesn't have eggs in it) and cheese. Pizza marinara, which has no cheese on it (or eggs) is one of the officially recognized variants of Neapolitan pizza.

[Paelos]

It's easy. You leave out the eggs (? regular pizza dough doesn't have eggs in it) and cheese. Pizza marinara, which has no cheese on it (or eggs) is one of the officially recognized variants of Neapolitan pizza.

I was thinking of pasta dough. Nevermind.

[Chimpy]

Found a different house. Is in my price range, good neighborhood, needs nothing done (new mechanicals, kitchen, bathrooms).

Did offer about 5% below their asking price just to start.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Ugh - vegan v. meat-eaters fight on my G+ feed.  The sanctimony is just oozing from a few posters and I'm feeling bad for the OP, because all he did was post an awesome pic of some vegan pizza he had last night (looked really yummie).

How do you make pizza with no eggs or cheese?

What Trippy said, but the blow-up came from someone else in the feed saying the pizza looked good but needed some meat on it.  That resulted in a lecture about how the first commenter didn't "need" meat to survive, someone else (a borderline troll, IMO) saying that it looked horrible (and later clarifying that it was because of the onions and olives, not lack of meat), which meant commenter #4 had to go on about eating "rotting meat" and things just got fun from there.   

[ghost]

That's a total troll.  I don't mind vegans or vegetarians (and even dabble in it myself sometimes), but people need to can the lectures.

[Paelos]

I'll bitch at the meat is murder folks. If they just post recipes, I could take less.

[ghost]

Yet another reason Google + sucks.   

[Merusk]

The "Rotting meat" comments always get me. Because somehow meat rots but plant materials stays fresh? Whut?

[ghost]

It all rots once it gets in your colon.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Yet another reason Google + sucks.   

Actually, I like G+ for completely different reasons than FB.  FB is for chatting with family and friends (and playing FV2) while I use G+ to connect with other artists and post more bloggy types of things I would put in FB.  So it's two entirely different environments. 

The "rotting meat" person was called out for being preachy and tried claiming innocence by asking why they weren't allowed to express their views about eating meat.  I wanted reply that it's not her view that's being called to account, it's the loaded language she was using, but didn't want to crap up the friend's feed even more. 

[Paelos]

I feed my feeds meat.