Good Vs Evil Edition

[Glazius]

Mentioning the grind is an inevitability.

Calling Glazius a gibbering fanboi soon after that is an inevitability.

Yeah, see? This is what I'm talking about.

I have fun playing the game, and I follow developer comments on it pretty well, and yet I'm automatically disqualified from any serious discussion _about_ the game. To actually talk about it and not be dismissed out of hand, I have to somehow find the force of will to stop myself from having fun.

I just don't understand.

--GF

[Llava]

You know... in my field, ED means something very different.  I dare say it almost applies as well to CoH.

The results of both versions of ED are pretty much the same.

The difference between WoW's grind and CoH's grind, is that WoW has a pretty constant rate of leveling. Level 15-16 is about the same amount of time as level 27-28. In CoH, this is not the case. In CoH going from 27-28 is about the same as going from 15-18, just like every other MMOG out there. The higher level you get, the longer it takes to get to the next level.

Except that reports are 60-70 will be like 1-60.

[Typhon]

My understanding of the WoW grind is that the leveling curve will be similar the same between 60-70 as it was between 1-60.  Note that this statement is far different from, it will take as long to get from 60-70 as it did to get from 1-60.  Of course reading and comprehension are hard [for me, so I may be very wrong].


[Edit: because I'm not picking on Llava, I'm picking on Typhon]

[Llava]

Actually I was told that 60-70 will be like going from 1-60 in person, face to face, by a WoW player.  I don't really keep an eye on WoW news because I don't play it.

[Typhon]

I have fun playing the game, and I follow developer comments on it pretty well, and yet I'm automatically disqualified from any serious discussion _about_ the game.

I was going to say something like, "If the discussion is about something as subjective and perceptually biased as "is the game fun", and the person you are having a conversation has already made statements that make it clear that his bias is very far from your own, then how is a serious conversation possible?"

But instead I'll say, "It's because we're bad people who mistrust and belittle anyone who has found some joy in life.  In short, it's because we hate you for continuing to have your smug fun, while all our fun is gone.  You smug, happy, fun-having bastard"

[Llava]

I think the question he's asking is why his bias is considered less valid than your bias.

And I'd say it's a reasonable question.

[Rasix]

Actually I was told that 60-70 will be like going from 1-60 in person, face to face, by a WoW player.  I don't really keep an eye on WoW news because I don't play it.

Why would they know? Anyhow, the total experience needed doubles between 60 and 70.  So at 60 you'd have X exp and then at 70 you'd have 2X exp.  Of course, exp per mob and quest exp will scale upwards to make it similar to the 50-60 progression if not a bit longer.   Of course, all of this info is contained in the thread that started with a similar misconception.

Edit: And of course, another 50-60 won't feel bad to me (if anything it was a bit fast, the quests were more interesting), but that's because I enjoy WoW.  I never really enjoyed CoH. I thought it was very neat and had a good premise, but the game just rings hollow for me (I just didn't feel heroic at all    ).  If you enjoy a game at the atomic level, no grind is going to seem THAT BAD to you.

[Typhon]

Bias is bias, especially on a topic that is largely subjective.  I'm not saying his bias is less valid then mine.  I'm offering a theory as to why his viewpoints seem to be dismissed on these boards - because his comments on whether there is a grind or differ significantly from a majority of the other posters (hereafter called "the majority").

If the majority felt that the value of Pi is 3, but the minority could show that it was an irrational number something like 3.14159..., the majority would be wrong because the value of Pi can be determined via cold mathmatical processes, regardless of how Pi or the majority feel about it (to my eye, Pi is rather shy... no, I don't know why I rhymed)

If the majority feels that a game is grindy, but a minority feels strongly that it isn't, the majority should pelt the minority with rocks to appease the game gods and assure that the new crop of games is less grindy/more fun.  This is the way it's always been.

[HaemishM]

Actually I was told that 60-70 will be like going from 1-60 in person, face to face, by a WoW player.  I don't really keep an eye on WoW news because I don't play it.

Yet another reason besides fruity horde elves that I'm not really that interested in Burning Crusade.

[Llava]

Actually I was told that 60-70 will be like going from 1-60 in person, face to face, by a WoW player.  I don't really keep an eye on WoW news because I don't play it.

Why would they know?

I don't know that he'd know.  But he'd know better than me, since he can't having a fucking conversation that doesn't involve WoW, so I assumed there had to be some level of truth to his statement.  Whether or not it's true, doesn't anyone find it the least bit disturbing that he thought that to be the truth and was anxiously looking forward to it?

[Typhon]

My answser will likely infuriate you.

Simple answer is: I'm not worried about a bad grind being added in because it will be an aditional thing to do in a game that I'd be playing anyway.  I want to see what additional alchemy and enchantments they add.  I want to see what higher level fish and cooking recipes do.  I want to see what socketing does.  I want a flying mount.  I want to see some of the higher level instances, especially since I play with a distinct set of 5 people (we've really just started with DM/XBRS/Scholo/Strat - which are the lowest "high level" instances you can go into)

There are plenty of diversions in WoW.  Because of the progression/history of the game, at this point gaining levels is the game, it's just one more diversion, one more thing to do.

CoX doesn't get that "buy" because, for me, CoX is leveling.  And that leveling is, for the vast majority of the experience, slow and repititious with very few other diversions.

[Glazius]

If you enjoy a game at the atomic level, no grind is going to seem THAT BAD to you.

I think it goes beyond that. If you enjoy a game "at the atomic level" (which is a phrase I've previously espoused but which is, also, rather flawed), there _is_ no grind.

Grind is... the sentiment "I'm not having fun now. I can see something on the horizon that looks fun, but I need to soldier on to get there." Something like that? I guess with Co* there might be a spike in fun at "new power" levels if you don't enjoy the combat, but that's about it. (From my perspective, not even all "new power" levels have that spike. Every archetype has.. maybe 3 or 4 defining powers and a bunch of filler? Something like that?)

From my perspective, Co* was built to deliver fun one scrum at a time. The environment only contributes as far as it offers opportunities or challenges in positioning. Missions only contribute as far as they slap a thin veneer of context on the punching. Ragdoll is fun in a visceral sense - I slotted my stone brute's attacks for knockback in senseless violation of all that is just and holy, and I love watching things go flying all over the place. Particle physics are great for bells and whistles. Some of the control sets are made for that, gravity in particular, but there's also this passive sense of there actually being powerful explosions that scatter a pile of shell casings to the four winds. And this one time my earth controller helped take down a lusca, spamming Stone Prison on the tentacles, and after it was defeated I realized because of the proportionality of the animation and the particle effects, there were now GIANT BOULDERS ALL OVER THE BAY FLOOR. I booted them around and laughed while everybody else was passing out congratulations.

Yeah, that's why I squee about ragdoll and about particle physics. That's also why, in apparent defiance of reality, I can say that ED, the controller retool, aggro capping, etc., all those "nerfs", actually made the game more fun, because they made the scrum more fun. Where I position my taunt means something. Enemies aren't perpetually in two states, "helpless" and "dead". The long-recharge powers seem like they have _more_ of an impact because they change the way a battle goes instead of being always there. Most things survive the alpha strike, meaning everybody gets to do some split-second prioritizing immediately after.

From the way you've described WoW, it sounds like... a very long checklist. Every time you tick a box, you get a little packet of achievement fun, and the underlying game is designed to spread out the boxes so that there's always something to get but there aren't too many to choose from. This is just a capsule summary, and certainly that's not infuriating me. But is it accurate?

I'm still trying to articulate why Co* is fun in a non-raving manner, and I think I'm getting closer but I'm not there yet.

--GF

[HaemishM]

Grind is... the sentiment "I'm not having fun now. I can see something on the horizon that looks fun, but I need to soldier on to get there." Something like that? I guess with Co* there might be a spike in fun at "new power" levels if you don't enjoy the combat, but that's about it. (From my perspective, not even all "new power" levels have that spike. Every archetype has.. maybe 3 or 4 defining powers and a bunch of filler? Something like that?)

I enjoyed the combat in COH. But, after a while, in the 20's, it became very samey-samey. Every fight would be similar, and in order to get to new villains who fought differently or to get new powers that would make the fights different, I had to do more and mroe of the samey-samey fights. In short, there was too much samey-samey, and not enough variation in the combat once I reached a certain level. That's when the grind shows is ugly head.

[Llava]

Did you ever play with Enhancement Diversification in effect, Haemish?

[Glazius]

I enjoyed the combat in COH. But, after a while, in the 20's, it became very samey-samey. Every fight would be similar, and in order to get to new villains who fought differently or to get new powers that would make the fights different, I had to do more and mroe of the samey-samey fights. In short, there was too much samey-samey, and not enough variation in the combat once I reached a certain level. That's when the grind shows is ugly head.

Yeah, that's what I _really_ don't get. You quit, because things had gotten boring, right when the game started to really open up. The 20s have the greatest variety in enemy groups of any level band in the game, and while there's a little samey about them (Warriors,  maybe Family, early Freakshow), for the most part there's some real variety from spawn to spawn, especially with the Council, Tsoo, Circle, and Banished Pantheon.

--GF

[HaemishM]

Did you ever play with Enhancement Diversification in effect, Haemish?

It would never have affected me, because I don't min/max. I don't think I ever even 3-slotted a power, much less 5 or 6-slotted one type of enhancement. It was one of those changes that just had no meaning for the style of play.

Don't get me wrong, there were some cool parts of the game. The Harbor zone they addd after release, with the funky soundtrack and the 5th column werewolves and the big tunnel area, that was one helluva killer zone. But by 29, I felt the grind HARD. I'm not much of an alt player, I soloed mostly, it just ended up frustrating me. I tried the CoV beta, with the hopes that the villain archetypes would really change the game. But it just bored me.

[geldonyetich]

I never found the Enhancement Diversification to be a real big deal.  It'll impact you most heavily if you were in the habit of placing 4 or more of the same kind of enhancement on the same power, but rarely did I see the neccessity.  With powers like Stamina, sure, drop six endurance recovery enhancers on there.  But with the average attack, I was better off dropping one or two accuracy, two to four damage, and maybe some endurance reducers or recycle speed increasers. 

The grind, however, was definately there.  Now, I recognize it's going to vary from person to person, but one doesn't have to look past the unusually high saturation of lower level (recently rerolled) heroes to see that most players aren't satisfied.

Things have improved a little bit on the City of Villains side with the introduction of Meyhem Mission powers.  These aren't that hard to get one's mitts on, and diversify the amount of powers you get at a lower level substantially.  Still, it's not quite enough.

[Sky]

The ED sounds like it would hit my playstyle pretty hard, I played as a true flying blaster. I tried to never touch down, unless it was on some high ledge or rooftop. I forget how many power reducers I slotted to be able to fly without any hit to my power pool (or whatever it's called, it's been over a year since I've played :)). I'd fly in, hit hover, blast away, hit fly and reposition, etc. If Fly were sucking power, I couldn't use it nearly as much tactically. I love flying in that game, especially zooming around a big melee in progress.

[geldonyetich]

Considering enhancements work on percentages, there'd never be a point where you'd have no hit to your Endurance for having hover on.  However, Hover was a pretty cheap power to begin with (0.22 end/sec where you generate 1.67 end/sec naturally).  No matter how many Single Origin Endurance Reducers you stick on it, you're reducing what was only about 13% of your power regeneration to begin with. Single Origin Endurance Enhancers are 40% each for most powers, with three of them you're looking at 0.09 end/sec instead of 0.22, so that's a gain of 1.58 end/sec instead of 1.45 end/sec.  You'd be better off sticking a few Endurance Reducers in your more costly attack powers, ones that can potentially eat 8 endurance every 4 seconds, for mucho endurance savings.   

Stamina is the easier route, which is probably why it was so popular to grab that and six slot it.  Now it'll top out a about 150% instead of 200%.

[Glazius]

The ED sounds like it would hit my playstyle pretty hard, I played as a true flying blaster. I tried to never touch down, unless it was on some high ledge or rooftop. I forget how many power reducers I slotted to be able to fly without any hit to my power pool (or whatever it's called, it's been over a year since I've played :)). I'd fly in, hit hover, blast away, hit fly and reposition, etc. If Fly were sucking power, I couldn't use it nearly as much tactically. I love flying in that game, especially zooming around a big melee in progress.

Actually, they dropped the endurance cost of Fly in a recent patch. Swift will also speed it up, and you can slot it for +flight speed. Hover + Swift should be pretty sweet.

--GF

[Glazius]

But by 29, I felt the grind HARD. I'm not much of an alt player, I soloed mostly, it just ended up frustrating me.

Ah. I think that might be the other reason for my irrational fanboy lust.

CoH popped my teaming cherry. I played GemStone III/IV, a glorified MUD, and then tried out Anarchy Online, and neither of those did much of anything for me as far as making teams went.

But... was it around Striga they put in the Server Team Seek interface? That thing's a godsend. Find like three other people without terrible spelling, make sure one of 'em is melee and one of 'em is support (if you don't qualify for either of those), and you can do just about anything.

--GF

[geldonyetich]

Ah, pardon, misread what he was saying.  Yeah, Fly was pretty expensive.  Still, when we're looking at the difference between pre ED and post ED, we're looking at it not impacting things like Endurance Reduction so much as things like +DEF and +RES.  The difference between having 90% RES/DEF scaling down to 75% RES/DEF [is going to hit you a lot harder than] having 15% less endurance savings while your fly is on before going into the cheaper hover cycle.  Sky probably wouldn't have been grounded by the ED, but he would have probably considered moving a few Fly endurance enhancement slots to other powers since six slotting EndRed wouldn't have been as lucrative anymore.

Folks who were into "herding" were perhaps the main target of the ED - they'd basically scoop up gigantic amounts of foes and then ask their AOE blasting friends to nuke em' to oblivion.  Massive experience if you can get it.

Granted, this was another miss on behalf of Cryptic.  Those obscene RES/DEF scores that rendered them down to only being hit for 5% of the time were due to the Defensive Inspirations, not the Enhancements.  Stack enough +25% DEF enhancements and you're capped easily enough at the foes having only a 5% chance to hit you.  Even a Blaster can tank in that situation, but real Tanks can herd with less +DEF inspirations and a higher margin of error.

[Llava]

I was in a lot of herding groups, never saw anyone relying on inspirations to do it.  Mostly it was Invincibility (toggle, PBAE taunt, the more enemies around you the higher your defense gets... capped your defense with I think less than 10 guys around you).

ED really screwed up a lot of my characters.  Then I respecced them all and tried them out, and they are actually more fun now.  The sole exception is my Warshade, who is basically screwed.  I want to play him as human only, and that option is nearly impossible now.  Or, at least, I can't figure it out.

The real effect of ED was preventing permanent Hasten, which meant that the uberest attacks weren't always up, which meant that different strategies had to be used in different fights depending on what was available, which really helped vary the gameplay.

Plus it became less possible to alpha-strike everything to death before they could react, so the game wasn't all about getting the biggest, hardest hitting AE you could and focusing only on that.  Turns out, there are a bunch of other powers in the game too.

[Lantyssa]

Designing to beat the people min/maxing in CoH is kind of like tailoring content to beat raiders in other games.  The targetted group will always find a way to optimize their characters to get around challenges.  The ones that just want to have fun get smacked a lot harder.

ED was needed on some level, but it was handled poorly.  Especially for the power sets with a large number of powers that used only one type of enhancement.  There is no diversification there.  The plan should have given those powers alternatives, too.

[Glazius]

Designing to beat the people min/maxing in CoH is kind of like tailoring content to beat raiders in other games.  The targetted group will always find a way to optimize their characters to get around challenges.  The ones that just want to have fun get smacked a lot harder.

ED was needed on some level, but it was handled poorly.  Especially for the power sets with a large number of powers that used only one type of enhancement.  There is no diversification there.  The plan should have given those powers alternatives, too.

Uh, actually?

ED did something subtler there, but it was needed too. My original build of my tank basically took attacks but ignored slotting them, in favor of putting as many slots as possible into defenses. This meant that while she was a good magnet in a team situation she couldn't solo to save herself from terrible, terrible, stand-there-while-your-damage-shield-does-all-the-work, grindiness.

Because ED lowered the bar as to how high you could be expected to get your defenses, the rebuild, with slots distributed sensibly, was like manna in the desert. Not only could I solo decently, but Taunt stopped being the only power that could actually benefit my team.

--GF

[Llava]

The problem with that being that, while your slots are distributed more evenly, now that's the sort of build that every tank is going to have because it doesn't make sense to do anything else, which I'm pretty sure is not diversity.

I do wish more styles of builds were still available like pre-ED, because that's always an important factor in the fun of any game, but I do have to say that the fun in playing the average individual character has gone up.

[Lantyssa]

Uh, actually?

ED did something subtler there, but it was needed too. My original build of my tank basically took attacks but ignored slotting them, in favor of putting as many slots as possible into defenses. This meant that while she was a good magnet in a team situation she couldn't solo to save herself from terrible, terrible, stand-there-while-your-damage-shield-does-all-the-work, grindiness.

Because ED lowered the bar as to how high you could be expected to get your defenses, the rebuild, with slots distributed sensibly, was like manna in the desert. Not only could I solo decently, but Taunt stopped being the only power that could actually benefit my team.

--GF

I would rather have the option to slot how I like.  I prefered slotting defensively but had plenty of attacks to solo.  I had a couple of fun powers that brought me little benefit besides, you know, FUN.

Then I got the option to slot all of my primaries with 3 resistance and some with 1 endurance.  Anything more is pointless.  My secondaries are now all six-slotted because I have no where else to put them.  All went from 1 Acc, 1 End, 4 Dam to 1 Acc, 1 End, 1 Recharge, 3 Dam -- my DPS is identical to pre-ED in the powers that were six-slotted before, and because of the required lowering of endurance, the faster attacks make endurance drain a wash.  Only now I have more fully slotted attacks, I am forced to favor my secondary over my primary, and I had to dump my FUN powers to make up for faceplanting to groups of white minions.

I can do okay after a few respecs, picking up powers I never wanted, and adjusting to the fact that anything using non-smash/leathal causes me serious risk.  But it isn't the character I designed, nor the one I played for 43 levels, nor do I feel diversified.  I feel like I have fewer choices, my concept was deleted, and I no longer find playing that character FUN.

YOU chose to ignore your attacks in favor of all defense.  I am glad you learned from the ED that maybe your carefully min/maxed group-oriented build was not the most fun way to play the game.  Why, exactly, is having to change the way I play my character for you to learn a better way a good thing though?

[geldonyetich]

Then I got the option to slot all of my primaries with 3 resistance and some with 1 endurance.  Anything more is [not so overpowered as to be in risk of nerfing anymore].

Fixed that for you.

[Lantyssa]

*sigh*

I do not dispute that many Tanks had too much defense and needed some adjustment.  Maybe, just maybe, not everyone built optimally and instead built what they thought was fun.

[tazelbain]

I blame the grind, people where only going to extreme of herding to get through the crappy grind.

[Llava]

I heard the grind was the gunner on the grassy knoll.





People herded because they could.  Cut the grind into a quarter of what it is, if you could still herd people would still be doing it.

[shiznitz]

Herding was fun for the tank and fun for the blasters.

[Trippy]

And Controllers (pre-AE nerf).

[Nevermore]

There was no need at all for control in a good pre-ED herding group.  Stuff died incredibly fast with six slotted AoE attacks and it's not like the tank was ever in any risk of dying anyway.

[Trippy]

That's true but it was still fun holding a bazillion mobs at once. Made you feel like you were, you know, a superhero.