Internet poker experiences, one month later

[WayAbvPar]

Heh- that sounds like a lucrative game to play in. Maybe you should visit your in laws more often!

My copy of Small Stakes Hold 'Em arrived yesterday. I have only read the first 40 pages or so, but I can already tell that it is going to help tremendously. It is less about fancy plays like some of the more advanced Sklansky books are (his books are predicated on playing with opponents who have a clue); it just tells you how to beat games with a large retard quotient (which is most low limit games these days, especially brick and mortar games).

I am telling you guys, but don't spread the word! God forbid the fishies learn how to play! =P

[UD_Delt]

That's weird Pig Destroyer. I have the exact opposite problem. I do really well on Stars Sit & Go's (43% ITM on the $5.50's and 46% ITM on the $11's) but I do horrible at Party where I'm closer to 30% in the money.

The format on Stars fits me better as I tend to only play monsters until I'm forced to play. On Party with the short stacks and quick blinds it makes you play a lot earlier.

I actually took 3rd place in a $11 stars tourney last night having only played 3 hands and my only win was a blind steal. It took a total of 30 minutes and I was at $1300 and the other two were $5000+. Of course when I move in on the AQ and get a call from A8 the 8 rivers to boot me....

I then played another $11 on stars and took first.

Then I hopped on Party and played 3 $6 tourneys and I took 3rd in one and out of the money in the other two.

[Pig Destroyer]

The difference is in the way you and I play.  I am really aggressive, always firing pot sized bets at people.  Due to the small amount of chips you get at Party, people are far less likely to call a Pot Sized bet with mediocred hands.

At Stars however, with 1,500 chips, people will call you down with 2nd pair and sometimes 3rd pair on a good pot sized bet.  Unfortunately for me, I am bluffing too much and getting caught.  

This morning however, I calmed down a bit, didn't make too many stabs at too many pots, and I placed first in a $11 SnG on Stars.  This was after my Pocket Aces got cracked by Presto when the flop came 2 4 5 and left me with 500 chips with the blinds at 100/200.

Hopefully, this is the beginning of a long winning streak :D

[El Gallo]

Heh- that sounds like a lucrative game to play in. Maybe you should visit your in laws more often!

My copy of Small Stakes Hold 'Em arrived yesterday. I have only read the first 40 pages or so, but I can already tell that it is going to help tremendously. It is less about fancy plays like some of the more advanced Sklansky books are (his books are predicated on playing with opponents who have a clue); it just tells you how to beat games with a large retard quotient (which is most low limit games these days, especially brick and mortar games).

I am telling you guys, but don't spread the word! God forbid the fishies learn how to play! =P

I just wanted to thank you for that link.  As someone who plays almost exclusively in live games with shitty players, that book was a great read.  So many little things I have been doing wrong.

[WayAbvPar]

I am only a little over 1/2 through it, but it has helped a bunch so far. I thought the section about counting outs was brilliantly written.

I had a good weekend- cleared my bonus at Stars ($120), then took the money out and dumped it into Party, and cleared THAT bonus in a few hours of multi-tabling (another $100). Bonus whoring can be profitable, especially when you are holding your own/winning while clearing the bonuses.

[Khaldun]

Ok. I've been getting into Texas Hold'em myself some lately--been reading, watching some of the many programs now on the teevee with it featured, and playing with friends now and again.

I'd like to try something like Pokerstars. But.

I'm a serious fraidy cat when it comes to the following two things put together:

Internet

and

Gambling.

Mostly because Internet gambling sites seem to me to operate in the bad neighborhoods of the Net, one stop away from the assholes who use misspellings of common domain names to try and infect people with spyware or phishers from Eastern Europe trying to dupe people into giving them their eBay password.

So, like, is Pokerstars safe and secure and all that? If so, maybe it's worth a shot.

[UD_Delt]

So, like, is Pokerstars safe and secure and all that? If so, maybe it's worth a shot.

I've been on Poker Stars for about a yea now and have had no problems cashing in or out using Neteller. I have also briefly used GamingClubPoker, Ultimate Bet, Party Poker, and Royal Vegas and have had no problems cashing in our out of any of those systems.

[Abagadro]

Over the last couple of years I've run around 15k through various poker sites without any problems whatsoever.

[WayAbvPar]

I would stick to the more established sites- Pokerstars, Party Poker, Paradise, and Ultimate Bet (the big 4, in my view). The smaller ones are too volatile for my tastes- they feel like they could go under at any time.

[Abagadro]

I should have clarified. By "various" I mean the big, well established ones Wayabvpar mentioned (I'd throw in Truepoker too).

[Paelos]

I like Stars, I'm doing better on there now that I've finally shed the stupid starting hand decisions I was making as a rookie. Hell, I've even limped into the money by tighening up near the end and letting other people ride the crazy train into stupidville.

Case in point, four people left last night at the table, one heavy chip leader with $7500, one at $3K, one at $2K, and me at $800. I kept my cool and didn't make rash decisions based on my stack while I watched the second place guy go heads up against the big stack before the flop. Big stack had pocket Ks, and the second place had AK that didn't catch. Then the next guy ahead of me made an even dumber decision by going all in with top pair when the big stack was raising with two eights on the board. Needless to say, big stack was holding an eight and won with a boat. Thus I found myself moving from a bad place all the way up to second place because hiding from the crazy action nets good things in SnGs. After all, its not about who has the most money with four left, its about who's left standing when the dust clears.

[Khaldun]

Been practicing at Stars in the playmoney tables. Definitely I have some bad habits I have to lose before I actually put real money into this. It's very hard to let go of what looks like a good hand, plus it's very hard to sort out the dummies who are staying in hands when they've got nothing versus the people who are really only betting on good-odds hands. I've been losing some painful showdowns on the river in particular...

[WayAbvPar]

Been practicing at Stars in the playmoney tables. Definitely I have some bad habits I have to lose before I actually put real money into this. It's very hard to let go of what looks like a good hand, plus it's very hard to sort out the dummies who are staying in hands when they've got nothing versus the people who are really only betting on good-odds hands. I've been losing some painful showdowns on the river in particular...

Play money tables are good for learning the basics (interface, rules, etc). However, you won't see anything resembling normal play. Once you feel comfortable with how things work, dump $50 in and play the microlimit tables (you can go as low as $.02/$.04 IIRC). This will give you a slightly better idea of how a real game will work. If you are serious about learning, buy some poker books and read them- if they win you 1 pot at even low limits during your lifetime, they will have paid for themselves!

I would suggest Theory of Poker, Hold 'Em Poker, Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players, and Small Stakes Hold 'Em. Probably wanna read SSHE before HEFAP, since the latter is geared more toward playing against competent opponents (which are rarer at low limits).

[Nebu]

I like Stars, I'm doing better on there now that I've finally shed the stupid starting hand decisions I was making as a rookie. Hell, I've even limped into the money by tighening up near the end and letting other people ride the crazy train into stupidville.

Great statement about stupidville.  I've been playing now for about 2 months online and have found the sites to be reliable.  As for my personal performance, I can honestly say this: I inevitably make one mistake per sit-n-go tourney.  Sometimes it doesn't cripple me, others have given me a quick exit.  Being patient is a must to stay in the black.  Wait out your opportunities and know who will and won't call your bluffs.  

One of the more valuable tools I've created is a note sheet of people tendencies.  Sure, this sounds anal... but we're talking about real money here.  I know who plays loose, who's tight, and who the wildcards are when I see them again (which is more often than you'd think if you play during a regular time window).

The other thing I've learned is that sometimes smart play gets crushed by dumb luck.  The other night I went all-in calling a repeat raiser and ended up with my pocket A's against their pocket K's.  I felt pretty good about my chances but still was crushed by a K on the river.  Play the odds, but know that it's always still a gamble.  

The shocking thing I've found is that I never get upset with anyone but myself.  If someone calls my bluff... good for them.  If I take a beat on the river, that's my risk.  Taking my beats with grace is possibly the best lesson I've taken with me from the experience.  It's a game... even money shouldn't detract from that.

[Abagadro]

No to be a total whore (well, okay, to be a total whore), but I am an affiliate at Party and will give you a 10% rake rebate if you sign up there, plus a sign up bonus of 20% (up to $100). You will get the 20% sign up bonus pretty much regardless, but if you sign up using a bonus code I give you you will be able to get 10% of the rake you pay to Party back. You will have to get pokertracker (which you will want anyways) and keep track of the rake you pay (it is pretty easy in the program) and then report it to me on a monthly basis at which point I will give you 10% of your total rake paid back.  It can add up over time.  Full disclosure: I am also getting a cut of your rake. Many affiliates don't tell you they are doing this and don't give you any rebate. If I get enough players going under this, I can up the amount you get back as Party ups the total percentage going back to the affiliate.  I switched from Party to Empire so I could get a rake rebate going on my play. PM me if you are interested.


(Mods: If this is too much of a commercial or is just plain out of bounds, please delete. I don't mean to offend, but I just think it can be beneficial to new players going online.)

[Paelos]

Something for the newbie player to remember in SnG's, especially in the early game, is not to go all-in on too many coinflip situations. That means if someone else goes all-in and you think he's holding a pocket pair, and you are holding any kind of draw cards, including AK, don't reduce your game to a coinflip. Better to fold those good cards early than to risk your entire stack on a basically 50/50 chance. Play the skill game, pay to see some flops when you have good cards, and make others pay to see them when you have better cards.

NOTE: This doesn't apply when the game is down to 4 players. At that point, calling with AK and even going all-in with it in a short-stacked situation is a must. This only refers to not shooting yourself in the foot early, which many rookies tend to do.

[El Gallo]

I would still like to toss out some love to http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1886070156/qid=1091739307/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6718778-7639939 as a good "first poker book."  I think it is more accessable (and much shorter) than the 2+2 books, and gives you a solid foundation in the game.  It won't maximize your return, but if you really understand and apply everything in that book, you will get a lot more out of the Sklansky books when you get to them.

[WayAbvPar]

LONG thread on 2+2 where a couple of other others dissect Lee Jones' book.

I read that thread a couple of weeks after I finished Jones' book, and I have to say that I agree with the critiques of it (although I think some of the statements were a bit harsh). It advocates a weak tight approach to low limit games many times...you can make some money playing like that, but it isn't optimal. It also sets you up to get KILLED at higher levels. Contrasted with Ed Miller's SSHE book, I think Miller's book is light years ahead of WLLHE. However, it has been the subject of some fairly broad misinterpretations which are costing people some money when the theories are misapplied, so I highly recommend reading other books first to get a feel for 'correct play' and then go from there.

[El Gallo]

I don't think Jones should be the last thing you read, just the first.  Even Ed Miller said that Jones' book may well be the best available beginner's guild to Hold'Em strategy in that thread (I stopped when Sklansky started spamming "I am a prick" over and over, but I'll check out the rest of it later I hope).  I think that 99% of the beginners who read Miller first are going to make enormous blunders trying to pull off those plays.  Jones is probably overly conservative, but that's a good counter for most players initial tendency to play way too many hands and go way too far with them.  Miller speaks to unhealthy tendencies that most players start out with (especially "look for a reason to stay in").  I see Jones' "look for a reason to fold" as an essential "break them down before you build them up" boot-camp strategy.  

Yes, Jones will get you killed in better games if you play by the text without modifying your strategy.  But so will Miller.  Maybe even worse because Miller's approach depends more heavily on your opponents playing ass hands and playing them badly.  Calling Axs early position in a tight medium limit game with 2 other players seeing the flop after a raise and a reraise will get you slaughtered.

Anyway, I don't want to come across as argumentative, I just think Jones is getting a bit of a rew deal.

EDIT: Damn, Sklansky is about the most annoying, thread-derailing, troll prick I have ever encountered on the internet.  Honestly.

[Abagadro]

I am on a huge rush at the 3/6 tables on Party (up 1200 bucks in the last week). I've been playing the jackpot tables. Ya, it is an extra .25 of rake, but there are tons of chasers and gamblers there who play like crap but are hunting a piece of the JP.

One disturbing item though, I just sat at a table with someone whose handle was: Goatse

[Paelos]

I'm having shit for luck now after a good run at the tables early on in the month. It seems like any combination of high ace draws I'm getting never materialize on the flop anymore. I've had times where I've had pocket Kings, bet big, got called and the Ace comes on the flop, which hurts. I just need a pick-me-up that tells me it will turn around.

What do yall do when you start to get a run of cold cards to help stem the tide?

[Nebu]

What do yall do when you start to get a run of cold cards to help stem the tide?

If you're talking about the sit-n-go tourneys I'll say this.  Even with crap cards, I can usually sneak into the money about 1/3 of the time by playing with people at the $5 and $10 tables.  If you play tight early and steal a few pots once the field gets to about 6-7, you can usually build enough of a stack to sit by and watch people get eliminated by going all-in on J9 os. A great piece of advice I once got was to never go all-in early with a coinflip hand.  Patience and chip management has kept me in the money far more often than a hot card streak.

As far as taking beats, I totally understand your frustration.  I had a night this week where I was making great hands all night long.  Problem was that there was always someone just one card better.  Bad players will win on occasion, but in the long run you'll come out ahead with better strategy.  Sure, they'll catch that inside straight on the river to burn you once in a while... the key is to keep them in the other 9/10 times when they don't.

[Abagadro]

What do yall do when you start to get a run of cold cards to help stem the tide?

Fold more.  I usually find when I am running bad it is not really because of the cards, but because I am pressing and playing too many hands or playing them too far when I can tell I am beat.  I have to make a concious decision to become more disciplined and ride it out.  That or cash out and take a break for a week or two.

[WayAbvPar]

Fold more. I usually find when I am running bad it is not really because of the cards, but because I am pressing and playing too many hands or playing them too far when I can tell I am beat. I have to make a concious decision to become more disciplined and ride it out.

This is good advice. Also, go back and reread your favorite poker book to reinforce some good habits.

[WayAbvPar]

I will consider this the de facto poker thread now, since it has more recent posts than the last one =P

I had to share this. I was playing a $10 2 table SnG last night on Poker Stars. One idiot would raise all in whenever anyone raised his blind. About the 4th orbit, I raised with AKs, he went all in, and I snapped his AQo off and he went home.  From there, I caught a ton of cards and played exceptionally well to boot, and built a big stack. The following hand happened soon after we got to the final table-

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed)

CO (t974)
Hero (t13683)
SB (t1965)
BB (t1078)
UTG (t1470)
UTG+1 (t1110)
MP1 (t3180)
MP2 (t3540)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Jc, Js.    
UTG raises to t600, UTG+1 raises to t1110, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero raises to t13683, SB calls t1865 (All-In), BB calls t878 (All-In), UTG folds.

Flop: (t18436) 4s, 4h, Jh (4 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t18436) 8d (4 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t18436) 3h (4 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t18436
Main Pot: t4912 (t4912), between Hero, SB, BB and UTG+1. > Pot won by Hero (t4912).
Pot 2: t96 (t96), between Hero, SB and UTG+1. > Pot won by Hero (t96).
Pot 3: t13428 (t13428), between Hero and UTG+1. > Pot won by Hero (t13428).

Results below:  
SB has Ad Qd (one pair, fours).  
BB has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and fours).  
UTG+1 has Ac 9c (one pair, fours).  
Hero has Jc Js (full house, jacks full of fours).  
Outcome: Hero wins t18436.

Craziest hand I have ever seen. Analysis- UTG+1 was shortstacked, so an all in with A9s isn't a terrible play, especially if he thinks UTG might fold. I have the 4th best starting hand in the game and a monster stack- I shoved to shut out anyone behind me who might get cute and try to outdraw us; I wanted to take on the two short stacks alone (in case UTG calls). I nearly vomited when I got 2 (!!!!) callers.

AQ has no business cold-calling a 3rd raise (with 2 all ins)- he is almost assuredly way behind, and likely dominated. KK- After 4 raises (3 all ins), I probably fold KK here, even with a short stack- 3 people are going home (at least), and I would expect to see AA more times than not.

So- after this hand I had a gafgantuan stack, and just battered the hell out of everyone with it. I eventually got it to heads up with the guy next to me, who had been all in several times already and had either had nice hands or hit his draws to stay alive. He wasn't shy about betting his chips if he thought he had a chance.

The next sequence of hands occurred in less than 15 minutes ( I would guess). My fluctuating stack indicates my successful blind steals and the like between the big hands. Witness the carnage-

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed)

SB (DeadMoney3) (t1123)
Hero (t19086)
UTG (t2596)
MP (t1430)
Button (t2765)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3h, Jh.    
UTG folds, MP folds, Button folds, SB (DeadMoney3) raises to t1098, Hero calls t898.

Flop: (t2096) 4s, 6s, Qh (2 players)

Turn: (t2096) Qc (2 players)

River: (t2096) 5c (2 players)

Final Pot: t2096
Main Pot: t2096 (t2096), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t2096).

Results below:  
DeadMoney3) has Ac 9h (one pair, queens).  
Hero has 3h Jh (one pair, queens).  
Outcome: DeadMoney3 wins t2096.  


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (3 handed)

Button (DeadMoney3) (t2046)
Hero (t22314)
BB (t2640)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5d, Ad.    
Button (DeadMoney3) raises to t2021, Hero raises to t4000, BB folds.

Flop: (t6046) 8h, Kc, 6h (2 players)

Turn: (t6046) 6c (2 players)

River: (t6046) 5s (2 players)

Final Pot: t6046
Main Pot: t4067 (t4067), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t4067).
Pot 2: t1979 (t1979), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t1979).

Results below:  
Hero has 5d Ad (two pair, sixes and fives).  
DeadMoney3 has 9s 9h (two pair, nines and sixes).  
Outcome: DeadMoney3 wins t6046.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (3 handed)

Button (DeadMoney3) (t4542)
Hero (t20493)
BB (t1965)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jc, Ac.    
Button (DeadMoney3) raises to t4517, Hero calls t4317, BB folds.

Flop: (t8884) 9c, 7d, 9h (2 players)

Turn: (t8884) Jd (2 players)

River: (t8884) 8h (2 players)

Final Pot: t8884
Main Pot: t8884 (t8884), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t8884).

Results below:  
Hero has Jc Ac (two pair, jacks and nines).  
DeadMoney3 has Ts Ad (straight, jack high).  
Outcome: DeadMoney3 wins t8884.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (3 handed)

Button (DeadMoney3) (t4859)
Hero (t19276)
BB (t2865)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jc, Ac.    
Button (DeadMoney3) raises to t4517, Hero calls t4317, BB folds.

Flop: (t8884) 9c, 7d, 9h (2 players)
BB folds, DeadMoney3 raises to t775, Hero calls t400, DeadMoney3 bets t1575, Hero raises to t4400, DeadMoney3 raises to t4809, Hero calls t34.

Final Pot: t18127
Main Pot: t18127 (t18127), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t18127).

Results below:  
No showdown.  DeadMoney3 wins t18127.



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (2 handed)

BB (DeadMoney3) (t13558)
Hero (t13442)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Jc, Jh.    
Hero calls t300, BB (DeadMoney3) checks.

Flop: (t950) Ts, 5s, 7c (2 players)
DeadMoney3 checks, Hero bets t600, DeadMoney3 calls t600.

Turn: (t2150) 4d (2 players)
DeadMoney3 checks, Hero bets t2400, DeadMoney3 calls t2400.

River: (t6950) 8d (2 players)
DeadMoney3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t6950
Main Pot: t6950 (t6950), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t6950).

Results below:  
DeadMoney3 has 3d 6s (straight, eight high).  
Hero has Jc Jh (one pair, jacks).  
Outcome: DeadMoney3 wins t6950.  


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (2 handed)

BB (DeadMoney3) (t16858)
Hero (t10142)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Kc, 7d.    
Hero calls t300, BB (DeadMoney3) checks.

Flop: (t950) 2h, 7s, 8d (2 players)
DeadMoney3 bets t1200, Hero raises to t9492, DeadMoney3 calls t8292.

Turn: (t19934) 5d (2 players)

River: (t19934) 4d (2 players)

Final Pot: t19934
Main Pot: t19934 (t19934), between DeadMoney3 and Hero. > Pot won by DeadMoney3 (t19934).

Results below:  
DeadMoney3 has 9c 6c (straight, nine high).  
Hero has Kc 7d (one pair, sevens).  
Outcome: DeadMoney3 wins t19934.  

Just a fucking brutal series of hands. I was seriously shellshocked by the end of it. Any thoughts?

[Abagadro]

Hard to tell without the intervening hands to get a flavor of the back and forth. Seems like early you were too anxious to put him out so you called his raises with some questionable cheese, even heads up.  You doubled him up to the point where he could hurt you a bit.  A couple of those are just brutal suck-outs, so may not have mattered in the long run. Blind squirrell syndrome seems to be in full effect.  I also don't like your heavy action with the flopped middle pair when he bets into you.

[Paelos]

Three hands really jump out at me as being highly questionable. First, the J3s call on an all-in. I know you're the big stack and hoping for a suckout draw, but still, you're basically giving the guy a free ride with that hand. In those scenarios I would only call with gapped suited connectors at worst. If you had J7s, that would be light years better.

The Axs thing I can see making the call on if the guy has been making iffy bets all game and you see him playing his stack, you just didn't catch your draw, no real problem there.

AJs v. ATo is a bad suckout there, no doubt about it. That's just luck biting you in the ass.

On the pocket Jacks, you misplayed it after the flop, no doubt about it. You have the high pair, no straights or flushes on the board, and an overall rags flop. I think you tried to get cute and sucker him into a bigger bet, but he didn't play ball. In reality you should have just bet big and taken the blinds with the possibility of a four flusher out there. Betting $600 with that much money is basically handing him a free card, and you're opening yourself up to either a flush, or an AKQ overcard. Take the bird in the hand there.

On the last hand with K7o, we both know that's a questionable hand to play heads up, but it's what I call a "tester hand." It's one you can throw money out there to see the reaction if you are the aggressor, but its not one that you call if you are the BB unless its a small raise. Really, since you were the agressor, you shouldn't be limping at this point. I would have bumped him two more BBs to see the flop. If you get re-raised, fold, but its an information gaining hand. Once you caught middle pair on the rags flop I know what you were thinking. You're thinking he's got high cards and he's gonna bluff them, but I'm holding a pair. Most likely you'd be right, but to bet him all-in with middle pair puts you at a disadvantage. You should certainly raise big, but if you get called or re-raised, you need to have a way to get out. All-in on a middle pair with two cards coming is a huge gamble, even if he is on an overcard draw.

Just my .02, the AJs thing was fucking brutal though, at that point I think I would be walking tilt road.

[El Gallo]

OK, I am starting to get sucked in to Partypoker now.  I still don't like it nearly as much as live, but I only get to play live maybe 4 or so times a year.  I miss the felt and the chips though.  Plus, my wife has not expressed interest in wearing a Bellagio coctail waitress outfit and bringing me gin and tonics for a buck tip.

At first I was off balance because of the much faster speed of play.  Also, the players seem slightly less shitty, or shitty in different ways, than most of the live players I have played with (my patented "limp with suited connectors in any position because nobody raises preflop ever and throw money in hand over fist when you flop 4 to the nuts because 6 other morons will call every bet no matter what they have"* is no longer uber.

ANYWAY, What I need is a good book on tournament strategy.  I play well in ring games, but I know in tourneys/S&Gs I should be giving more weight to the tournament prizes than I do (e.g. if I am 1 seat out of the money and have a chance to call all in after the turn with the pot giving me 3-1 odds on a draw to the nuts I have a 50% chance of hitting, I am 100% positive what I should do in a ring game but a bit unsure of what to do in a tournament/S&G).

My biggest weakness in ring games is playing short-handed, which obviously transates to S&Gs, but I know where to go to fix that.  I need a good tourney book though.

That all being said, I have been doing quite well on Party $10 and $20 pot limit S&Gs for a couple weeks now, just playing basic ring game strategy (and playing way too tightly shorthanded.)  It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how poorly I play, there are so very many people who play so very much worse.


*there is more to it, but yes Sklansky would think I am a weak tight suckass.

[Abagadro]

Go to the tourney forums (the Multi-Table and Single Table)  on twoplustwo.com.  I think they are the best forums on that site, particularly the SnG where there is a FAQ which has links to good threads.  I have read Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players and think it has some good stuff like the "Gap Concept" so you may want to try that as well.

[Paelos]

My biggest piece of advice short handed is make people make hard decisions when you are in the lead, and avoid making gambles when in the shorter stacks. That alone will bleed people out and leave you in the money when people make stupid calls.

For example, you hit top pair on the flop and there's a possible four flush out there, put the short stacks all-in to call their flush draw. On the flip side, the smart play if that happens to you is to let them go if you are the short stack unless the blinds will eat you up next go around.

Also, I am big on the philosophy of playing extremely tight early on. Some disagree since the blinds are lower, but I suggest that by playing on the top ten hands at first, you let the crazy players bust themselves out fast, and then you don't have to deal with people who don't respect a good bet. Plus, you don't get sucked out by the nutters holding 73 off that make a straight against your AK. Playing tight early also opens up the your bluffing options when the bigger blinds come around. You can steal off the button much easier when people catch on that you are only playing top hands.

[WayAbvPar]

Hard to tell without the intervening hands to get a flavor of the back and forth. Seems like early you were too anxious to put him out so you called his raises with some questionable cheese, even heads up.  You doubled him up to the point where he could hurt you a bit.  A couple of those are just brutal suck-outs, so may not have mattered in the long run. Blind squirrell syndrome seems to be in full effect.  I also don't like your heavy action with the flopped middle pair when he bets into you.

The intervening hands were mostly blind steals or limps with folds to a flop bet. I was steadily rebuilding my stack each time, but could not get him commited to a pot to save my life. I had played with him for the entire tournament, and had a pretty good feel for how he played. He was big on betting draws, which is why I went at him so hard on my K7 hand- I had a made hand, and I was almost certain he was on a draw. I was also probably tilting a bit after all the suckouts.

J3s-I was in the BB with a 20k stack; it cost me less than 5% of my stack to try to bust him. Not the best play, but I make this more times than not. If I miss, it encourages him (hopefully) to play back at me when I bet into him with a big hand later.

JJ- As I said above, it was tough to get this guy to put any chips in the pot. JJ is a MONSTER hand heads up, so I was hoping to make it look like I was cautiously betting 2nd pair or so to get him to play back at me.

[Paelos]

JJ- As I said above, it was tough to get this guy to put any chips in the pot. JJ is a MONSTER hand heads up, so I was hoping to make it look like I was cautiously betting 2nd pair or so to get him to play back at me.

It depends on what you mean by monster hand. Yes, heads up JJ is awesome, but ONLY pre-flop. If you can sucker him into an all-in then, you've got it made in the shade since he's likely a 3-1 dog or worse.

Once you get into the flop, anything and everything can change. You can get one or more overcards, a flush board, a four flush, or a pair. All of those spell disaster for the Jacks. Basically, I'm a big advocate of not letting someone suck me out when I can take what's mine. If you catch them being stupid, so be it, but in the long run of a heads up game, you shouldn't be worried about the monster hand. It's about bleeding them out until they must start making bad calls. I like to let them walk into their own traps, myself.

[Abagadro]

If he played any draw, I don't like your k7 hand even more. You aren't getting him to fold which is really the only reason to bet all-in like that and your hand is so vulnerable, I wouldn't want much money in the pot at risk.  It looks like he got real, real lucky, but you put yourself in the postition for that to happen with tiny edges (except the JJ hand) when you could have waited him out a bit to get better shots at busting him.

[WayAbvPar]

Paelos- have you played much heads up? Not that I am an expert or anything, but in my experience often ANY pair (either on the board or wired) is a winner heads up. There is no one else there donating to help increase your pot odds, so dicking around with iffy draws for a lot of money is generally unwise. I think he decided to make a stand with a couple of draws (which you have to do when there is such a disparity in chips) and got lucky; I didn't help matters by making it easier for him to play.

Abagadro- He was pretty timid about calling big reraises without a made hand; he would bet out with a draw (or maybe A high), but wasn't afraid to fold if he got played back at- I had been doing it to him and others all game long once I had a big stack (with or without holding a big hand). The reason I bet him so hard on the K7 hand was that I was pretty sure he was betting a draw- I was hoping to push him out of the pot while I still had a stack large enough to scare him. When he called, I knew I was in trouble.

I appreciate the feedback from you both- it really helps to bounce these things around.

HEaded to Tahoe in about 9 hours- woohoo!

[Paelos]

If he played any draw, I don't like your k7 hand even more. You aren't getting him to fold which is really the only reason to bet all-in like that and your hand is so vulnerable, I wouldn't want much money in the pot at risk.  It looks like he got real, real lucky, but you put yourself in the postition for that to happen with tiny edges (except the JJ hand) when you could have waited him out a bit to get better shots at busting him.

I agree with Abagadro, it seems you reversed the strategy into slowplaying the good hands and overplaying the edges. If the guy is a tight player who won't commit to throwing money in the pots as you said, why with middle pair do you put him all-in when he's already come out betting hard? That alone says he's got a great draw or even worse has suckered you hard. When you had K7 v. his 96s after that rags flop. He's holding 11 outs on his draw. That's 41% to make the draw by the river that leaves him with a better pair or the straight, so the call on his side makes complete sense.