Fucking With Greatness.

[WindupAtheist]

Morphiend likes Marilyn Manson and Tim Burton?  It's like a goth fag fell into a suspended animation freezer in 1996 and was unthawed ten years later.

[HaemishM]

Tim Burton made Ed Wood and Beetlejuice. His ego made all of his other movies. Ed Wood would not have been half the movie it was without Depp and Landau; in fact, it would have been shit. I've always gotten the feeling that his movies would be about 20 times better were it not for his irrational need to rubber stamp the thing with his "wacky, look at me I'm so dark and twisted and goth" style on everything. It's like some teenage high school Bauhaus-fanatic got shit-faced on schnapps and X and then threw up on film.

[Morfiend]

What about Sissorhands and Nightmare Before Xmas, both of those where very enjoyable movies. And I happen to like the "Wacky Dark look at me im Goth" aspect of his movies, at least its not standard Hollywood schtick.

[HaemishM]

I've never been able to make myself watch Scissorhands. Nightmare Before Xmas was bearably silly. The problem I have with the "Look at me, I'm goth!" schtick is that after about the 4th or 5th time seeing it, it no longer has any significance whatsoever. It's like Manson's thing, it's only shocking the first few times, then it just looks sily and becomes a caricature of itself.

I did forget Burton's Batman and Batman Returns. Returns would have been a perfectly good Batman movie, had Burton not decided to goth up the Penguin. There was actually one scene in the thing that was almost cinematic perfection. And then the Penguin bursts through the floor and the movie goes downhill from there.

[Riggswolfe]

I am a Burton fan. I admit it. Especially when he teams with Depp.

Though, if you watch An Evening with Kevin Smith he has a topic about Tim Burton that is hilarious. He made a joke about one of Burton's movies and said something along the lines of "and then he dropped the artsy shtick and came after me with the claws out."

[WayAbvPar]

I am with Haemish (surprise!). Some of Burton's stuff has been decent/tolerable. but the vast majority of it is pure crap.

[Simond]

Heading back to the original topic, Gainax is remaking Evangelion.

[stray]

A remake worthy of greatness:

A Fistful of Dollars


On the flipside, and I'm sure I'm going against popular opinion here: The Magnificent Seven. It sucked. Prime example of how American sensibility can screw up a thing.

And I really don't want to crack a Brokeback joke, but needless to say, I think the trend of gay cowboys really starts there (with Steve fucking McQueen, no less!).

Also, you might not like Marilyn Manson's music (I happen to enjoy it), but you have to give him credit for doing what he did and using the media and the publlic to really promote his albums.

I'm not a big Marilyn Manson fan (I loved the first album though), but I'll give him some credit. He was the last thing in rock that scared and pissed people off.

Besides the actual music, that should be the secondary function of rock 'n' roll. To be the thing parents love to hate. This was an age old tradition beginning with Elvis, to Lennon, to Jim Morrison, to Ozzy, to Bowie, to Iggy, Punk in general, to NWA, to even Prince and Madonna. Marilyn Manson was the last one. Or maybe Eminem?

[Signe]

I've enjoyed the Tim Burton movies, for the most part.  They make me feel less weird.  I didn't find the new Willie Wonka to be that different from the old one, except Johnny Depp was a bit more childlike in his interpretation.  The oompa songs were better in the original.

PS  I am a big fan of Marilyn Manson.   

[Morfiend]

I've never been able to make myself watch Scissorhands.

Sissorhands is right up there with Beetlejuce as Burtons greatest work, IMO. You probably wont find it that good cause you have seen a lot of his other movies, and he pulls a lot from Sissorhands, but it is THE original Burton/Depp movie, and his best one. Also, a lot of it will probably seem cliche, but thats just cause so much has been done after it, at the time of release it was an amazing movie (again, IMO). You really should watch it, but if you do, try and go in to it with a neutral attitude, and not thinking about burtons other movies. Whichg would be hard, but the only way to do it justice.

[Morfiend]

I've enjoyed the Tim Burton movies, for the most part.

PS  I am a big fan of Marilyn Manson.   

Oh SNAP! WUN, I guess that makes Signe a Fag Goth also.

[HaemishM]

Well, Signe does like men. Close enough for gothness, anyway.

As for Manson being the last thing in popular music that "scared and pissed off parents," hardly. You have those scary black people singing rap music and looking for white girls, the gayness of Lance Bass, and just teen rebellion in general. Manson pissed off people who should have known better. He was a great RL version of an Internet troll. He was Hyuocrity made flesh.

I'm too far gone to look at Scissorhands objectively. It may have been the last "original" thing Burton did.

[stray]

Big Fish and Ed Wood came after Scissorhands. They were original enough (granted, one was a biopic, but still).


Anyways, I like Edward Scissorhands. I even bought a DVD a while back. Thing is, it's still in the shrinkwrap. I don't know...I thought it was a good idea to buy it at the time, but I can't really bring myself to watch it again. Blonde Winona Ryder or not.

I like it, but I partly agree with Haemish too.

[Sky]

Manson had some great rock music. The last album of his I bought, Mechanical Animals had a few great tracks on it, even. His early shows behind the first album were sick.

[Abagadro]

Scissorhands is far and away his best movie.  He's almost been trying to remake it his entire career it was so good.

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure is also a great Burton movie IMO.

[stray]

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure is also a great Burton movie IMO.

I remember dragging my brother to watch that with me when it came out (because I was too little to go alone). I liked Pee Wee Herman a little too much as a kid, I think. Hell, I still want that house of his.

[Surlyboi]

My Sassy Girl sucked.

[stray]

Just remembered. One of my favorite movies is actually a remake: Breathless (yes, the cheesy Richard Gere version).

It's nowhere near the classic that A bout de souffle is, but it's almost a perfect Americanized representation of the same story. It's the Hamburger to A bout de souffle's Chateaubriand. Watching the two together makes one realize just how lowbrow us Americans really are (and how charming that can be sometimes).

Breathless was also the first movie I ever went to in the theaters. My Dad dragged me along, I was about 6 years old then, so I didn't understand much about it except that it had nudity, and that Gere was possibly the coolest character ever in it (he's a bit retarded as well....But that's beside the point. He was still cool. Rockabilly schtick, crazy pants, Silver Surfer fan. What's not to like?). I still think this way about it.

[EDIT]

Speaking of the Magnificent Seven, supposedly there's another remake of the Seven Samurai in the works. This time with......George Clooney???

I like Clooney and all, but.....No.

If McQueen, Bronson, and Coburn can't hold a candle to Mifune and Kurosawa, then Clooney sure as hell can't.

There's a Chinese cast in it as well (Donnie Yen and Zhang Ziyi being the big names). I wonder what they're up to?

[WindupAtheist]

Oh SNAP! WUN, I guess that makes Signe a Fag Goth also.

Yeah, you two are peas in a pod.  You both like Burton, Manson, and men.  Now get your ass back to Hot Topic, cocksucker.

Moving on, I'll give Burton credit for Pee Wee's Big Adventure and Beetlejuice.  Everything else he's made can kiss my ass.  Yes, that includes the Batman movies.  Meanwhile Manson is an unredeemed hack who attained fame primarily by pissing off ignorant easily-frightened "morality" types.  Then Eminem came along and frightened those same types even more, leaving Manson as nothing but a has-been wearing prosthetic tits.

[Telemediocrity]

My Sassy Girl sucked.

You have no soul.  Die in a Korean fire.  I've seen a lot of romantic comedies (yeah, so shoot me) and it was one of the first and only I've seen where they came up with a female lead who was actually genuinely attractive, personality-wise.  Gyeon-woo makes a better, more relateable male lead char than whatever poor man's Richard Gere they're sticking in romantic comedies this week (It's really sad how far David Duchovny has fallen).  I'll admit that Windstruck was a bit tone-deaf as a prequel, but the original stands up incredibly well to multiple viewings in its own right; I'm not the type to re-watch things usually, but I've seen My Sassy Girl about 4 or 5 times.

Re: Marilyn Manson - I only hear the singles he puts on the radio, and about half of them are catchy and fun - mobscene, rock is dead, the beautiful people, etc.  It's like Rob Zombie - vaguely metal-esque pop that the whole family can enjoy.  If you can listen to his songs and just sort of smile and tap your foot, it doesn't really matter whether he's "talented" or not - Tatu were never talented, but that one song they had that translates to "prostitute whore" in English (Prosthie d-something) was one of the best pop songs around when it came out.  Even my mom kinda gets into Manson when his songs come on.

Re: Tim Burton - Nightmare Before Christmas, Edward Scissorhands, Willy Wonka, and Corpse Bride were all enjoyable movies.  They did lay it a bit thick on the gothfaggery at times, but the all-time most obnoxious movie in that regard for me is still Shrek (Worst ending ever), and they didn't even reach half of that level.

Re: Hot Topic, since WuA mentioned it - assuming you avoid about 90% of their merchandise, you can actually find some good stuff there.  Last time I passed through, I got myself an "I'm the Gangster of Love" arm sweatband.  They also have unique and interesting hats, suitable for any Silly Hat Day festivities you may find yourself invited to.

[Fabricated]

Heading back to the original topic, Gainax is remaking Evangelion.

Blech. Just when I was hoping that overrated piece of shit would fade into obscurity finally.

[WindupAtheist]

penis am yum

I like how you enjoy all the things on my "goth fag" list and feel compelled to stick up for them, but only in a really half-assed dismissive fashion, like you're waiting for me to tell you it's cool to like those things as long as you don't like them too much.

Too bad, you Burton-watching Hot Topic emo!



At least Morphiend basically just says "I like those things so fuck you!"

[Sky]

Manson's version of Screamin' Jay Hawkin's 'I Put A Spell On You' is great. I use elements of it when I sing it (though the Animals and CCR have great versions, too). And no more apt artist for Manson to cover, imo. The stuff he did with Daisy was very strong. 1996 was a great punky anthem. The radio tracks after Antichrist Superstar were his weakest stuff, imo. I wish I could remember the names of the couple of outstanding tracks on Mechanical Animals. To me, Mechanical Animals is almost Bowie-esque. He kinda took a lot of flack for that and that's when he started churning out generic goth stuff (imo, I haven't listened to much of the later stuff, so it's an ignorant statement, possibly).

I'm willing to mock pop fad rock with the best of them, but Manson was a bit more than that.

[stray]

I'd barely even associate Manson with Goth. Goths makes albums like "The Decomposition of Violets" and have band names like "Miranda Sex Garden" and "Clan of Xymox", not "Anti-Christ Superstar" and "Marilyn Manson". Manson is metal and/or industrial metal. He's more of hyper version of Alice Cooper than he is Peter Murphy.

[Signe]

I might enjoy Manson but I love Bauhaus. 

[HaemishM]

Signe really is a goth fag. 

[Morfiend]

I was never a goth fag, and NEVER even close to emo. If you must know I was in to punk. Misfits and DK and such. I liked to make all the shit hot topic made so trendy. When the store first opened around here I was excited, a store where you could buy a already made chain wallet. Never again would it be me and a hole puncher and the hardware store. Then I realized what they did. They brought all the cool shit to the suburben masses and made it suck.

So WUN, yeah, I like Burton, I like Manson, but I like Jello and DK better, so put my cock back in your mouth and keep sucking you little shit.

[stray]

I used to buy chain wallets at Harley stores. Same goes for my boots and jacket. Now even that place sucks, as you can't find anything in a Harley shop without HUGE, tacky Harley logos on it. Even the boots.....Which sucks since I can't seem to find a place that sells cool motorcycle boots anymore. Jackets are a little easier.

I dropped the chain wallet for, not to be ironic or anything, a stingray wallet. As in, my wallet is made out of stingray skin. So is my belt.

I don't step anywhere near Hot Topic.

[Signe]

Maybe I'm just eclectic.  That must be it.

[WindupAtheist]

I was never a goth fag, and NEVER even close to emo. If you must know I was in to punk. Misfits and DK and such. I liked to make all the shit hot topic made so trendy. When the store first opened around here I was excited, a store where you could buy a already made chain wallet. Never again would it be me and a hole puncher and the hardware store. Then I realized what they did. They brought all the cool shit to the suburben masses and made it suck.

I swear to Mithra, you're such a fucking douche.  The only thing more teenager-lame than shopping at Hot Topic?  Whining about Hot Topic and how you have more cred than the "suburben" kids who do shop there.  What are you, fucking fifteen?

[stray]

Oh ya. A Death Race remake coming soon to a theater straight to video bin near you.

"Death Race 3000" to be exact. Done by AvP/Mortal Kombat director Paul W.S. Anderson.

I hate to say this, but it might be the one movie where Uwe Boll would do a better job. Anderson is going to try and take it seriously. It won't suck necessarily, but it'll be boring.

[stray]

Maybe I'm just eclectic.  That must be it.

I love Bauhaus. No shame in that.

[Telemediocrity]

First off: Motorcycle boots (Hell, any sort of boots on men), chain wallets, etc. have never been cool.  Kids who turn their choice of music and clothing into a reflection of some larger "lifestyle" have never been cool.

Secondly, I'm not half-assedly defending Manson; the half-assed thing would be to say he's only worth listening to as part of some lifestyle package.  Manson makes good, hard pop music, and I can appreciate that.  Calling it pop music isn't diminutive in any way, because there is not, and has not been, anything wrong with making pop music - that's a silly notion created out of whole cloth by slow teens, and for the most part the rest of the world seems to know that better than in America; Pink Floyd could go on Top of the Pops in the UK without worrying about losing 'street cred'.  By saying Manson is pop, I'm saying that he has appeal beyond a niche of largely silly people, and that people like my mom can enjoy him too.  There's never been anything wrong with, or less cool about, enjoying the same music as your parents.  (Exception: My dad is into Enya.  That's just too much.)

[Llava]

Love Manson.  He's not a breakthrough musician, and he's said as much.  "Others make the hammer, we apply it."  He's a storyteller, and  the stories he tells are complex and interesting.  But you have to be willing to buy into it.  A lot of you aren't.  That's fine.  But there's more to it than you're seeing.  Antichrist Superstar, Mechanical Animals, and Holy Wood are all retellings of a larger story with different twists and endings in each.  His most recent, "The Golden Age Of Grotesque" broke away from the trilogy and told a different sort of a story, more autobiographical than the previous ones.  But if you're mistaking him for a serious musician, you can only really blame yourself.  One of his more recent songs even includes the lines, "This isn't music, and we're not a band, we're five middle fingers on a motherfucking hand."  Comparing him to someone like, for instance, Dream Theatre is pointless.  They're as different as dogs and dinosaurs, to quote a line from Peewee's Playhouse.  But no, his music isn't for everyone.  (Sky, I recommend you check out a few tracks on Groteqsue.  'The New Shit' especially is very good.)

Frankly, I've decided I don't like most Burton movies.  They're not bad movies, though.  He's pioneered his style and refined it, and, with the exception of Planet of the Apes, has applied it strongly and consistently.  I'm just tired of it, personally.  It doesn't speak to me as deeply as some other styles.  Were I a different sort of person, it might.  My earlier fascination with Burton's style was just charm, I believe, and not any real sense of resonance with his methods.  That doesn't make the movies bad, just like my not liking country music doesn't make Johnny Cash bad.

I honestly do feel that some individuals on this site need to learn that concept.  Some things are just bad.  Some things are just what they are, and they may or may not be for you.  And some things are universally awesome.  That middle category is too frequently blended into the other two, and the meaning is confused, and suddenly people start flaming each other and calling each other goth fags.  Get over yourselves.  Honestly.  You're adults.

[Morfiend]

Deleted my post. Ill reference this instead.

I honestly do feel that some individuals on this site need to learn that concept.  Some things are just bad.  Some things are just what they are, and they may or may not be for you.  And some things are universally awesome.  That middle category is too frequently blended into the other two, and the meaning is confused, and suddenly people start flaming each other and calling each other goth fags.  Get over yourselves.  Honestly.  You're adults.

Great post.