Tackling

[edlavallee]

I think I get the concept of tackling... In your opinion, what are the best tackling ships out there? What are the key features, capabilities and criteria for your opinion?

For instance -- must be cheap, fast and have more than 3 mid and 3 high slots.


Zipper Zee, the incessant questioner

[dwindlehop]

Key capability is speed. Scram and web are relatively short range mods, and they have no falloff. You need to be able to close before you get popped.

I have a theory that as a newb tackler it is best to practice your fleeing skills and not fit any defenses. When you get targeted, hang around as long as you can and warp out before you lose the ship. Then come back in for more tackling fun. Someone with antifrig capabilities will pop you pretty fast no matter what kind of n00b tank you have. Someone without antifrig capability won't hit you, so it doesn't matter that you don't have a tank.

It's just a theory, though.

[MahrinSkel]

I think I get the concept of tackling... In your opinion, what are the best tackling ships out there? What are the key features, capabilities and criteria for your opinion?

For instance -- must be cheap, fast and have more than 3 mid and 3 high slots.

Define "Cheap"?  Stilletto's make *the* best tackler, faster than hell with 4 mid slots and 3 turret mounts, and Interceptors lock eyeblink-fast so they're hard to get away from.  But they go for 10-20M a pop, easy enough to come by in 0.0 (it's less than one hour mining or ratting) but a bit pricy for a disposable ship by Empire standards.  Most of the Covert Ops have 4-5 mid-slots, but again they are in the same price range as the Stilletto (they also don't lock very fast even without the cloak fitted).  The *only* T1 frigs that meet your criteria (more than 3 mid slots and cheap).  The only T1 frigs that meet your criteria are the Griffin and the Merlin (both Caldari), and the Merlin is the only one with 4 high slots as well.   Many Assault Frigates have the slots, but they start at 20M.

--Dave

[Wolf]

You don't really need 4 med slots to tackle. I mostly do it in a Taranis (gallente interceptor), but there's two guys without much money in the corp and they tackle just fine in Rifters (minnie frig). As long as you remember that you're disposable, you're going to do fine. If you're willing to lose the ship and remember to turn off the mwd once you're in range, you'll do great.

And don't bother with tanks-shmanks. Go nanofiber crazy on the sucker :)

[MahrinSkel]

Yeah, if you're fitting a tank on a tackler, you don't get the concept.  You're a speedbump, the only thing your guns are good for is enemy tacklers.  Fit nano or overdrives, and forget surviving if you come under fire.

--Dave

[edlavallee]

Definitions please... Nano? Overdrives?

Also, my 3 mid, 3 high was just a prompt to get you all to be a bit more elementary with your suggestions. I have no idea, really, just figured you would need some mids for scrambling, webbing etc and some highs for NOS, etc. I looked at the rifter and that looked interesting, but frankly I was looking to learn a bit from your collective greater wisdom.

Do AB's speed increases stack?

And I can see how an interceptor or t2 frigate might be better, but the next time I get 20million will be my first time. Currently treading water at 10ish and looking for ways to make more. I think my fetish is ships.. I collect them like Jay Leno does cars/motorcycles.

[dwindlehop]

You can only run one AB at a time. It'll let you fit 'em but not run 'em.

Nanofibre structure is a passive hull upgrade that increases speed. Those stack. I don't know why they're not located under prop upgrades. Confused the hell out of me initially.

Overdrive is a prop upgrade for speed. I think they stack.

Highs are probably not as important for your newb self. Mount some guns so you can take down drones or enemy tacklers, but don't worry overmuch about NOS or whatnot. If you can run NOS and it keeps you tackling longer, good, but the drain on a big ship's cap from your small nos 1 is not significant.

Edit: realized I knew what overdrive was.

[Toast]

NoS seemed to become relevant in cruisers/level 2 missions for me. That's the first time i fitted one, and it was definitely needed.

[dwindlehop]

I ran nos on a Punisher for PvE so I could keep my tank up versus cruiser rats.

[Nija]

The only T1 frigs that meet your criteria are the Griffin and the Merlin (both Caldari), and the Merlin is the only one with 4 high slots as well.   Many Assault Frigates have the slots, but they start at 20M.

--Dave

C'mon, the Rifter is better than both of those you listed.

[Wolf]

Only one little correction - Overdrives are like Nanos, only in Propulsion Upgrades. The difference is Nanos give you agility (turn faster) and speed and the penalty is -hull and Overdrives give you Inertia (accelerate faster) and speed and the penalty is cargo hold.

I go with Nanos, because fast ships have trouble staying in close orbit and agility really helps. Plus you don't really need to accelerate any faster than you already do.

The basic setup I'd go for a rifter is:
Nos/Nos/Gun/Gun
MWD/Warp Scrambler (That's the short range one, with 2 point strength)/Web
Repper/Nano/Nano

(No idea if you could fit all of that, you prolly can't and will have to use a Miicro Auxiliary Power Core, so just drop the guns)

MWDs really do make a difference. Work for one, it'll pay off if you want to tackle. Noses make sure you can keep your scram/web running even if you're getting your cap sucked dry by a bigger nos (small noses drain energy every 3 seconds, so chances are if you start them with about 1.5 sec difference, you'll always have cap when the Scrambler or Webber requires it).

Some tips:
NEVER go straight ahead for a bigger ship that's locking you. Show transversal on your overview and always try to get some 500m when going in for a tackle on a shp that's locking you. Chances are he'll still be there trying (and not succeding) to hit you when you get in range.

Try to orbit in less than 7km, more than 5km when tackling someone. If he's a cruiser with small blasters, he won't instagib you. If he's a battleship with smart bombs you'll be out of their range. Train doing that on cans (most ships are still when they're webbed anyway).

Always turn off your mwd when you get there. It makes you nearly unkillable unless the target has a zillion skillpoints.

Disangage your scramble and get ready for the pod when your target is about to die. Remember that getting the pod is almost as important as getting the ship and you'll get mad props in your corp if you learn to do that. Some people like to eject from a dying ship to save the pod, so be ready to lock a pod even if the ship is still alive. If he's expirenced he'll be alligned when he ejects. Nothing to do about that.

I'll add some more if I think of them.

[bhodi]

People really seem to like WMDs, I've trained afterburners and I'm angling for the MAPC since I can't even turn on all my weapons... maybe i'll train it just to see what it's like eventually.

[Wolf]

People really seem to like WMDs

Of course we do. They destroy stuff. 



Sorry had to be done.

[Merusk]

Nanofibre structure is a passive hull upgrade that increases speed. Those stack. I don't know why they're not located under prop upgrades. Confused the hell out of me initially.

If you read once more what you typed, you'll understand why they're not in propulsion upgrades.

 I'm a fan of ABs, myself, but I primarily do missions (where you end up in deadspace and the MWD is useless) and ratting.  Were I to PvP I'd need a faster ship, and therefore I'd be picking-up more MWDs.  Having good cap-boosting skills helps to negate the cap penalty they force on you.

[Rasix]

Show transversal on your overview and always try to get some 500m when going in for a tackle on a shp that's locking you.

Ack, what the hell does that mean?

[Merusk]

Show transversal on your overview and always try to get some 500m when going in for a tackle on a shp that's locking you.

Ack, what the hell does that mean?

Everything you wanted to know about blowing things up (including transversal) but were afraid to ask. (Gun edition)

[edlavallee]

More definitions:

MAPC?
Repper?
Instagib?

And one clarification -- nanofiber structures do give you more speed at the expense of structural hit points, yes? I think that is true. Not that big of a deal if you are tackling -- the difference is nigh-well negligible, but worth noting.

One last thing -- bohdi, if you do find the WMD's, don't forget to tell Rumsfeld and GWB... They been looking for them for years. 

[WayAbvPar]

MAPC?
Repper?
Instagib?

Micro Auxilary Power Core
Armor Repairer
Getting blown into tiny bits in a big hurry.

[Toast]

I like how the game teaches by experience. I started doing level 2 missions in my new cruiser. There are still a lot of frigates in these missions. I learned very quickly that transversal velocity is a huge deal in trying to hit the little buggers. Having transversal on the overview is a must.

I started trying to manually pilot my ship to negate some of their transversal speed. Stasis web fields help alot as well ( I looted one that sells for 5M isk recently..haven't equipped yet)

[Wolf]

And one clarification -- nanofiber structures do give you more speed at the expense of structural hit points, yes? I think that is true. Not that big of a deal if you are tackling -- the difference is nigh-well negligible, but worth noting.

Speed AND Agility.
Equaly important imo. If you're down to structure you're dead anyway so don't worry :)

[Simond]

Just to complete the picture, the Amarr ghettoceptor (T1 frig pretending to be an interceptor) is the Executioner which not only does the job (with a 2/2/2 slot layout) but also looks stylish while you're at it. Plus it's got the second-highest speed and second-smallest signature radius (slightly behind the Slasher on both). The final selling point is that they are dirt cheap ('book' price of 30K isk)

My usual setup is
H: Nos
H: Nos or Gatling laser w. multifreq crystal (to try and pop small drones)
M: MWD
M: Short-range scrambler
L: Nano structure
L: Nano structure...or maybe an armour repairer, if there's the slightest chance of living long enough to use it.

[WayAbvPar]

I don't think the Slasher has the cap to be effective tackling, but godDAMN are they fast when you slap a MWD on them! Makes those long trips much easier to take.

[Llyse]

I've mucked around with a Condor and I'm finding I think it's suitable for disposable tackling.

It's 3, 2 ,1

So your meds are MWD and a 2 point and your low is a nanofiber.

2 points is the 2 points of warp scrambling strength. warp scramblers have 2 points. warp disruptor's 1 point

[Vedi]

Do you think there a role for larger EW ships, such as the Caldari Scorpion battleship or are they simply too ineffective because of the speed?

[Llyse]

Scorpions and Blackbirds have a huge place on the field.

EW is different from suicide tacklers.

Tacklers are there to stop them from running

Scorpions and Blackbirds stop enemy ships from targeting or doing any damage.

Eve come back online damn you!  :-D

There's an Electronic Warfare topic here in F13 somewhere...

[MahrinSkel]

Let me put it this way: Scorpions get called "primary" (everyone shoots at them first) in every fleet battle I've ever been in, if there are no BS's then it's Blackbirds that die first.  EW is extremely pivotal in fleet actions.

--Dave

[Vedi]

Thanks.

I haven't gotten a clear grasp on all the terms yet, so I somehow had the impression tackling was a name for all things EW/anti-speed/anti-warp. Nice to know that EW is important in fleet action though. Makes me think I'd bring a Blackbird though - those I can afford to get blown up .

[Strazos]

Something I learned while helping people test builds against my Ferox - Try to orbit your target on a perpendicular axis. If you're orbiting parallel to a ship, your transverse velocity drops to crap for half of each revolution.

It gets you killed.

EDIT: Also, getting that MWD OFF at the right time is KEY. In practice, I nearly popped an inty with a Single volley when the pilot put the MWD on for a moment.

[Sparky]

C'mon, the Rifter is better than both of those you listed.

Vigil 4 lyfe.  It's the poor man's 'ceptor.

[5150]

I've mucked around with a Condor and I'm finding I think it's suitable for disposable tackling.

It's 3, 2 ,1

So your meds are MWD and a 2 point and your low is a nanofiber.

2 points is the 2 points of warp scrambling strength. warp scramblers have 2 points. warp disruptor's 1 point

Same here (different fitting though since I still cant use MWD yet), its a little fragile on the approach (so you need to tack in to the target) but with a 1mn ab on it you can get about 800m/s out of the thing which I think it pretty good for a T1 frigate that costs peanuts

I've actually used a Kestrel for tackling, not particularly fast (my fit is so tight I can only get a civ ab on it) but with a 400mm plate in one of the lows (yes you did read that correctly) its got the armour of a cruiser (you can almost see the 'wtf!' expression on your targets face when they get through your shields :-D)

[Llyse]

hahha funny thing is I can't use MWDs yet either so yeah 1MN AB for me as well...

What is nice is the native boosts Navigation gives and since you need Nav IV for MWDs you get quite a bit of speed.

Plus Navigation doesn't have many helper skills but you should get Acceleration Control and Fuel Conservation.

They definitely add mileage to your cap usage as well as extra speed.

I can leave my AB on for my Condor and not drop below 85% Cap. Decently nice.  :-D

[Wolf]

The shitty thing about Fuel Conservation is it doesn't work with MWDs :(

That's why High Speed Maneuvering 4 is kind of a must, if you don't want your cap disappearing by the time you go through the 50km to your target :)

[edlavallee]

Sooo... the EVE site is down and I am busy procrastinating at work. Was revisiting this tackling thread and wondering how this fitting might work with a Rifter:

HIGH-SLOTS :
- [   8 |   15] Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain
- [   8 |   15] Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain
- [   4 |   10] 'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I
- [   4 |   10] 'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I

MED-SLOTS :
- [  15 |   25] 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
- [   1 |   25] J5b Phased Prototype Warp Inhibitor I
- [   1 |   21] X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

LOW-SLOTS :
- [   0 |    0] Nanofiber Internal Structure I
- [   0 |    0] Nanofiber Internal Structure I
- [   5 |    4] Small I-a Polarized Armor Regenerator

This fitting might be a little tight, but opinions? Rockets vs missles? (since I am a missle guy, guns are not the best for me).

[Llyse]

Procastinating at uni and I'm thinking it'd be good but maybe too many named modules to be a disposable tackler otherwise it seems great.

My merlin is only 1.6km/s even with a MWD >.<

[edlavallee]

Procastinating at uni and I'm thinking it'd be good but maybe too many named modules to be a disposable tackler otherwise it seems great.

My merlin is only 1.6km/s even with a MWD >.<

So, I could perhaps drop one of the launchers and fit some non-named modules. Who expects me to do damage anyway? Is there anything I could fit in the hi slots which would increase my durability or my peskiness?