Video Cards and such

[WayAbvPar]

Installed my new GeForce 7800 GS last night. Oblivion autodetected it to 'Very High', but still set the resolution at 1024x768. I cranked it up to 1600x1200 and had no problems other than a bit of slowing when there was a combat with several people on the screen. This was also a few hours into my play session, so the suspected memory leak(s) could have been the culprit.

Golly things are pretty now.

[Yegolev]

I have had the 6800GT since right after it was released, and I have been nothing except happy with its proformance. I have been able to run pretty much every game on high and have it look beautiful. I have been a nvidia fan for a long time.

Me too, until Oblivion.  Don't get me wrong, the game runs fine and looks beautiful, but there's a deep and whorish part of me that wants it autodetected on 'Supreme' rather than 'High'.

:)

I have that whorish part too, but after looking at the prices of a 7800 with 512MB ... I'll wait.  The 6800 GT 256 is good enough for now.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, that's exactly what I have.  As you say, it'll do.

Until Elder Scrolls 14.

[Phred]

Speaking from professional experience: ATI drivers suck ass.  ASS.  Every goddamn time I've spoken to a customer or a coworker that has a problem with display driver stability, it's been an ATI card.  Every.  Goddamn.  Time.  Upgrading the drivers rarely works since their latest drivers are invariably just as shitty as their outdated ones, and the best solution ATI support has ever offered me is "disable hardware acceleration". 

I never see problems of that nature with nVIDIA cards.  That more than anything is what keeps me buying nVIDIA.

I don't think it's necessarily that ATI drivers suck ass so much as companies don't bother to test on ATI at all. ATI seems very quick in fixing problems as they are found with popular games but I really don't think their drivers are particularly crappy. I think it's just like the days when everyone tested their games on 3dfx and Nvidia cards were left in the cold.

I have an 9800 pro and it's been fine other than the problem with WoW in some zones where the gpu recover was triggering. The latest drivers fixed that. The latest problem has been with Oblivion, which uses some wierd refraction shader which makes ATI antialiasing take a huge crap framerate wise. Turning off anti-aliasing or disabling the shader in the ini file fixed the problem.

That said, I probably won't buy another ATI. It used to be that the quality of the anti-aliasing was worth the extra hassle but now Nvidia seems to have caught up and I hate hassles so I'm gonna be a big suck and go with the standard everyone is testing with. Just like using a Creative sound card generally used to assure you no sound problems because everyone tested with Creative, the Nvidia has become the industry standard, leaving other card owners in the dirt waiting for driver updates to fix manufacturer's problems.

[Lt.Dan]

I've been considering this exact conundrum as well.  I'm probably going to go with the 7800GS (retarded or not :D).  Basically because I've stretched out my 9800Pro for 3 years and I'd plan to do the same with a new card.

I also compared this option with a motherboard upgrade with a PCIe slot.  I could be looking at the wrong metric but PCI-e cards with similar specs to 7800GS seemed to be similarly priced to slightly more.

[Yegolev]

I didn't even look at the AGP version of the 7800.  Whether or not PCIe makes technical sense, I might as well go that route and stave off the next mobo upgrade as long as possible.  The price difference is negligible in my mind.

[Trippy]

I also compared this option with a motherboard upgrade with a PCIe slot.  I could be looking at the wrong metric but PCI-e cards with similar specs to 7800GS seemed to be similarly priced to slightly more.

NVIDIA doesn't make a PCIe equivalent of the 7800GS however the 7900GT is substantially faster than the 7800GS and only around $30 more.

[Phred]

I also compared this option with a motherboard upgrade with a PCIe slot.  I could be looking at the wrong metric but PCI-e cards with similar specs to 7800GS seemed to be similarly priced to slightly more.

NVIDIA doesn't make a PCIe equivalent of the 7800GS however the 7900GT is substantially faster than the 7800GS and only around $30 more.

I jumped to PCIe this week. Picked up an Asus SLI board on sale and the 7600gt vid card. When the price drops I hope to pick up a second one. Unfortunately Oblivion didn't recognise the 7600 so I had to hand tune the settings myself but I am very happy with the results. Not to sure how I like HDR though. I think I prefer FSAA to it though and they seem to be mutually exclusive atm.

[Murgos]

Follow up.  Using the 'Chuck patch' for my x1600 and I couldn't be happier.  HDR, 2xAA @ 1280x1024, most bells and whistles and getting 20+ FPS in even grassy areas.  HDR + AA = WOW.  Everything is noticibly clearer and just better looking.

[HaemishM]

I R confused. What is HDR and why should I care if a video card has it?

[Murgos]

HDR = High dynamic Range Lighting

Better, more colorful lighting - it's a big improvement.  Also, it is supposed to be less work for the GPU than other methods of lighting if it has the proper built-in stuff for it (i.e. Shader Model 3.0 usually just called SM 3.0).  So, it's more betterer.

[MrHat]

HDR = High dynamic Range Lighting

Better, more colorful lighting - it's a big improvement.  Also, it is supposed to be less work for the GPU than other methods of lighting if it has the proper built-in stuff for it (i.e. Shader Model 3.0 usually just called SM 3.0).  So, it's more betterer.

I just noticed it makes things shinier.

[HaemishM]

You mean video games need MORE methods to make shit shinier than Telly Savalas's head?

[Trippy]

You mean video games need MORE methods to make shit shinier than Telly Savalas's head?

You can never have too much shiny. Except for lens flare. Lens flare needs to die a horrible painful death.

[Xanthippe]

So, what is the upshot of this conversation for someone who doesn't really want to understand overclocking, chipsets and all that.

I ordered a ASUS Nvidia GEforce 6800 GT from Newegg last Saturday.  It arrived last evening, and two heat sinks fell off, because they weren't even attached to the card.  God it's got a big fan on it.  Anyway, after much cursing and wailing and gnashing of teeth (because I've been able to do nothing but merely fondle my Oblivion box since last weekend when I got it), the thing is packed up and ready to go back to Newegg.

I can order another one and wait another week or so to get it from Newegg, or I can ask my husband to stop by someplace and pick me up a video card.  The problem is, I have no idea what to get or what price to pay.  Seems Newegg has great prices.  But I really don't want to wait another week.  I want to play now.

So I called Fry's, and could not understand a word the guy said.  Between the acronyms for things I don't know what they are, the accent, the speed at which he was speaking, and the fact that he works at Fry's (the worst customer service I've ever seen), I just wanted to get off the phone as quickly as possible because it was just torturous.

Stores available are Fry's, Circuit City, Best Buy.....  Can someone please just tell me whether I can buy a video card for under $300 that will perform decently at one of these places and if so which card, and which place?

I hate hardware.  I don't even want to understand it.  I just want to get something and have it work.

[Xanthippe]

Like, how is this one?

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/eVGA-e-GeForce-7800-GS-Video-Card-256-A8-N506-/sem/rpsm/oid/144489/catOid/-13043/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

[Murgos]

Sure, that card would be great.  It's $100 dollars more than you said you wanted to pay but, surprisingly, the price is equivalent to newegg.

If you're willing to pay that much then I say go for it.

[Xanthippe]

It's still under $300! 

Thanks much.

I just talked to a guy at Circuit City, who scared me into taking off the cover and looking at my computer.  It has a AGP slot.  He scared me into thinking that maybe my power supply isn't up to powering something like that, so I called my husband (who does not share my aversion to hardware, thank goodness) who assured me that the power supply is brawny enough to handle anything.

Now just to find one somewhere.

[Xanthippe]

Like, how is this one?

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/eVGA-e-GeForce-7800-GS-Video-Card-256-A8-N506-/sem/rpsm/oid/144489/catOid/-13043/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

How does that one compare with this one?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7634713&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01151&id=1130987912328

Which one would you buy, if somebody else was paying for it, and why?

[Murgos]

I misread and thought you had said you wanted to stay under 200.

Yeah, for 300 bucks from a retail store thats a pretty good deal.

edit:  The 7800 GS is an all around better card than the x1600 pro (which is less than 140 online, that price is a HUEG rip).

[Nazrat]

I ended up with the 7800GS for the required Oblivion upgrade.  The 7800GS is simply amazing.  Oblivion read it as Ultra High Quality.

The game runs well on it.  Since this computer is at the end of the upgrade cycle, I splurged on the high level card.  It was a good decision.

[Engels]

I'm playing obvlivion nicely on an AGP x850 pro. Oblivion is uber, but its not THAT uber. EQ2 still demands more of a vid card than that game does.

[Trippy]

Like, how is this one?

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/eVGA-e-GeForce-7800-GS-Video-Card-256-A8-N506-/sem/rpsm/oid/144489/catOid/-13043/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

How does that one compare with this one?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7634713&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01151&id=1130987912328

Which one would you buy, if somebody else was paying for it, and why?

Get the 7800 GS -- it's much faster than the X1600 Pro. The X1600 Pro is roughly comparable to the 6600 GT, if you are familiar with that model.

[Engels]

Edit: My bad. I'll never figure out ATI's numbering scheme. The x1600 pro isn't as good as the x850 pro which is better than the 6800 ultra.

[Trippy]

Dude, there are well documeted tests that show the x850xt beats the pants off the 6800 ultra. There's just no way a 6600 GT beats a x1600. But don't take my word for it:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/276/7/

LOL, and I bet you think the GF4 MX 440 is faster than, say, the GF3 Ti 200 because, you know it goes to 4! The X1600 series is an updated 9600, if you know that line. It is nowhere near comparable to the 9800/X800/X850/X1800 lineup.

Your benchmarks don't show the X1600. Check out these instead:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-x1600.html

The X1600 XT beats the 6600 GT in most of the benchmarks, loses in some, and is a wash in the rest. Oh and BTW, the X1600 Pro has *half* the memory bandwidth of the X1600 XT tested above (that's why most Pro models have 512 MB, it needs that because the memory bandwidth is so gimpy). Benchmarks for the X1600 Pro are very rare since its so gimpy and I haven't seen a straight up comparison between the X1600 Pro and 6600 GT hence my claim that the X1600 Pro is "roughly" comparable to the 6600GT.

[Engels]

Yep, you're right. I was operating under the invalid assumption that a company putting out a whole next generations of cards would be actually better cards. My bad.

[Trippy]

I found a direct comparison except it's with a 256 MB X1600 Pro -- I would expect the 512 MB to be somewhat faster:

http://en.thethirdmedia.com/pc/200603/20060321104659.shtm

Edit: fixed typo

[MisterNoisy]

Yep, you're right. I was operating under the invalid assumption that a company putting out a whole next generations of cards would be actually better cards. My bad.

Yeah - the X1600 is a 'cut down' version of the higher end cards, much like the GF4MX cards were compared to the GF3 cards that preceded them.  Fucking marketing wonks apply the bigger number to the entry-level card because 'it's teh new, and we'd rather everyone bought teh new!'  It offers good performance for around $120 or so, and if someone asked 'what would be the best choice at $100-150', I'd recommend it wholeheartedly. 

The *most* comparable card to the X1600Pro is probably the GF6800 which is generally available for around the same price or slightly more and generally slightly outperforms it.  Drivers tend to be a bit better with NV cards, but in most games, there's no difference and certainly not enough to worry about it more than price.

If you're looking for *the* most kickass AGP card for under $300, the GF7800GS is your choice.  If you're shopping at lower price points, there's a number of offerings that will fit the bill.  The overall tendency is for NV cards to have better performance at a given price point at no AA/no AF on, but for ATI cards to close the gap and supercede their nVidia counterparts as those features are enabled and the resolution goes up.

As an aside, both Tom's Hardware and Anand have articles relevant to this - I'd check those sites first - I'm particularly fond of Tom's Hardware's VGA charts when it comes to this stuff.

[Strazos]

Just wondering, but how do you all think a Radeon 9800Pro 256 would fare with Oblivion?

Just read the PC Gamer review today. Sounds interesting to try. Also, more focused than Morrowind.

I can't play big games that lack focus - I end up just falling out of the habit of playing it. See: Freelancer.

(And it's a shame about Freelancer, because it had great controls and graphics, but I got lost playing alone in the sandbox)

[Trippy]

Just wondering, but how do you all think a Radeon 9800Pro 256 would fare with Oblivion?

Phred was using one before he upgraded to a 7600 GT (scroll up to see his posts).
 

[Wolf]

Soooo... I bought a new card yesterday. I went to get a Sapphire X800 GTO 2, but my buddy at the store told me they had this deal atm about the Sapphire X850XT (which normally costs $400, and they were selling a very limited ammount for $200) so I couldn't turn that down. Is the sapphire X850XT a good card? I truly don't know shit about hardware and I have enough useless information in my head so I'd really like to keep it that way. A simple Yes or No or better than this and that, worse than the other and the third would do.

[MisterNoisy]

Soooo... I bought a new card yesterday. I went to get a Sapphire X800 GTO 2, but my buddy at the store told me they had this deal atm about the Sapphire X850XT (which normally costs $400, and they were selling a very limited ammount for $200) so I couldn't turn that down. Is the sapphire X850XT a good card? I truly don't know shit about hardware and I have enough useless information in my head so I'd really like to keep it that way. A simple Yes or No or better than this and that, worse than the other and the third would do.

Short answer:  Yes - it'll handle modern games pretty well, but if that store normally sells the X850XT for $400, don't shop there any more.

[Trippy]

Soooo... I bought a new card yesterday. I went to get a Sapphire X800 GTO 2, but my buddy at the store told me they had this deal atm about the Sapphire X850XT (which normally costs $400, and they were selling a very limited ammount for $200) so I couldn't turn that down. Is the sapphire X850XT a good card? I truly don't know shit about hardware and I have enough useless information in my head so I'd really like to keep it that way. A simple Yes or No or better than this and that, worse than the other and the third would do.

The X850 XT was ATI's top-of-the-line GPU at the beginning of last year. It's roughly comparable to the GeForce 6800 GT/Ultra if you are familiar with those GPUs. It's definitely better performance than the X800 GTO. One disadvantage with that line of cards is that it doesn't support DirectX Shader Model 3.0 so you might not see certain bits of eye-candy on the latest games.

[Engels]

I have the X850 pro, which if I understand it correctly, is the same as the XT but with a few less pixel pipelines. Oblivion works rather nicely with it. Its by no means super duper, but I'm content. The price on newegg is right, so I would go for it.

[Strazos]

So what would be a nice card to upgrade to from a Radeon 9800PRO 256?

I'd really like to stay with the 256mb onboard Vram.