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Author Topic: Preview: Seed (PC)  (Read 36477 times)
schild
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on: March 09, 2006, 07:28:25 PM

Samwise
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Reply #1 on: March 09, 2006, 08:06:42 PM

Quote
People. I'm lacking people. Examining the literature available more closely, it turns out that those amazing story NPCs have been withheld from the beta, or at least this stage of it.


What.  The.  Fuck?  Weren't the amazing super AI-driven NPCs supposed to be the core of the entire game?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Raguel
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Reply #2 on: March 09, 2006, 09:42:28 PM

IMO they should have waited until NPCs were in and fully functional before going to an NDA-less beta; some people have to learn things the hard way.  tongue

edit: I should add, that I agree that NPCS will make or break this game. At least they are pushing back release now, but IMO from what   we've been told, it should be pushed back to (at least) December, not May.  shocked


« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 09:48:26 PM by Raguel »
HaemishM
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Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 06:35:02 AM

Ok, so the main feature of the game isn't even in, or when it is in, isn't even working properly and isn't fully-featured when it is working properly?

WHAT... THE... FUCK?

You don't go to ALPHA with idiocy like this, much less an NDA-less beta. Is Runestone a word in Dainish meaning "Stupid Assclown?"

Seriously, developers. STOP DOING THIS SHIT. May is not going to be long enough to wait. You need to pull it out of beta, put the programmers, lead designer and project manager in a room, beat them for hours with a rubber hose, THEN make sure they don't leave until it's working as intended AND FUN.

Fucking hell.

Soukyan
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Reply #4 on: March 10, 2006, 08:29:47 AM

Good preview, Yoru. Thanks for the write-up. I'm still very interested to see how it turns out. Being a small shop probably has something to do with what appears to be a rushed release date. However, aside from the sticking in the geometry at the start, were there other bugs you can comment on that you encountered or does it seem to be fairly stable and playable both server and client side? (yeah yeah, I know that not having the main bullet-point for the game implemented fully can be construed as a bug, but you know what I mean) It definitely sounds like it is in an alpha state at the very least, but a stable engine and client can provide a lot of possibilities. I hope they have a plan.

In any case, how does buying/selling work? Is everything in the interface point-and-click or are there hotkeys? Can you bulk sell? I would assume so if you can make batch jobs for production, but I'd be interested to know. Also, did you encounter any other players while you played? What are all the buttons on the left hand side (the usual character, inventory, skills, options, etc.?) ? Are all of them functional? What kind of graphics options do you have within the client? What specs were you running it on and what kind of framerate were you seeing? If you can answer any or all of these questions, I would be most appreciative. I tested an MMO called Black Moon Chronicles and while it was a different perspective and a different game type, the artistic cel-shaded style was used also and I've always been drawn to that for some reason. (Viewtiful Joe was quite awesome looking)

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
Raguel
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Reply #5 on: March 10, 2006, 09:36:34 AM

After re-reading the review and the Seed forums, it appears that the "macro-quests" (e.g. terrraform DaVinci  or build a spaceship to go back to Earth?) aren't in yet either.  cry
HaemishM
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Reply #6 on: March 10, 2006, 09:39:25 AM

So the entire defining feature of the game just isn't in yet?

That's like Shadowbane shipping without PVP.

Rhonstet
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Reply #7 on: March 10, 2006, 10:10:05 AM

Is this really a beta? 

This sounds almost like some weird incremental in-house testing, if all they are doing is enabling individual features in series and looking for bugs in each. 

My big issue with the game is that it seems to be another 'waiting' game, where instead of actually doing some small and vaguely challenging skill-based task (ala Puzzle Pirates or Warioware), you just click on something and wait for the bar to finish scrolling across the screen.  Is that what these actual 'maintenance' tasks are like?

We now return to your regularly scheduled foolishness, already in progress.
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Reply #8 on: March 10, 2006, 11:07:22 AM

Good preview, Yoru. Thanks for the write-up. I'm still very interested to see how it turns out. Being a small shop probably has something to do with what appears to be a rushed release date. However, aside from the sticking in the geometry at the start, were there other bugs you can comment on that you encountered or does it seem to be fairly stable and playable both server and client side? (yeah yeah, I know that not having the main bullet-point for the game implemented fully can be construed as a bug, but you know what I mean) It definitely sounds like it is in an alpha state at the very least, but a stable engine and client can provide a lot of possibilities. I hope they have a plan.

I didn't want to comment on the technicals in the preview, since it's still in development and could potentially be fixed.

The client, as of right now, is semi-stable after the last patch - and by stable, I mean 'doesn't crash'. There are a small variety of temporary (can be fixed by fiddling with UI, moving, etc.) and permanent (have to restart client) graphical corruption bugs that I've encountered infrequently, usually no more than one every half-hour or so. There are still some very reproducible, but relatively obscure, client crash bugs (e.g. ctrl+alt+delete always causes the client to crash) and ugly behavior 'bugs' (the client window is un-minimizable).

Until the current patch, it was almost completely unplayable - spending enough time in-game to generate a proper review was a gut-wrenching exercise of pure masochistic willpower. The server would stop responding every hour or so, forcing a reconnect; your tools would 'jam' (due to, supposedly, an animation bug), forcing you to reopen the client every 10-15 minutes or so, depending on how fast you were fixing panels. I'm not sure if the game still crashes if you move your avatar while zoning. The tool bug has been fixed in the newest patch, I believe.

Targeting things with the mouse is still very flaky; most things have a large selection box over them when you mouseover (see the screenshot where I've targeted a panel), but only a small spot, about the size of the mouse cursor's head, actually allows you to bring up the context menu to interact with something. Clicking elsewhere elicits no reponse from the program.


Quote
In any case, how does buying/selling work?

You go to a Sharepoint (store) and use your Access Points (money) to buy things from a menu; you can see the sharepoint menu in one of the screenshots. An item is deposited in your inventory, money is subtracted. To sell things, you drag them back onto a small section of the Sharepoint menu and hit 'donate' (which means sell), at which point you get some money back. Things are bought back for a good bit less than they're sold for, although I don't have exact numbers in front of me.


Quote
Is everything in the interface point-and-click or are there hotkeys?

Everything's point and click as far as I've found. If there are hotkeys aside from WASD (which, as I noted, the game is flaky in interpreting), I haven't really found them.

Quote
Can you bulk sell?

Sort of. You can sell any number of items (1..n) in a stack of n items. However, unless you get a stack of stuff out of a factory, things are currently not interactively stackable (bug or yet to be implemented, I don't know). When you drag the stack onto the sharepoint menu, there's a little text box with left/right arrows that lets you punch in (or click up/down) the number of items in the stack to sell. You can similarly bulk-purchase.

Quote
Also, did you encounter any other players while you played?

When I initially wrote the review, I encountered one AFK or unreponsive person standing around in the newbie room. Since then, I've occasionally seen someone run by when logging in to check out new patches. Last night was the first time I'd talked to someone; we tested out the chat system and managed to crash each other's clients a few times.

Quote
What are all the buttons on the left hand side (the usual character, inventory, skills, options, etc.?) ? Are all of them functional?

From the top:

* "Hands" or "Equipment", shows the two 'hand' windows on the mid-right side of the screen. These let you equip tools by dragging n' dropping the tools onto the appropriate hand window. Visible in the first screenshot.

* "Assets", pops up a window in the lower-left that shows you the tools, money, and blueprints you're carrying. Visible in the first screenshot. The various subwindows here show you inventory (shown), machines you control, bits you control, not sure but I think that's mail, and 'rings' that you belong to. Rings are essentially chat channels, which can be set to invite-only, free-join, etc. They're currently kind of buggy.

* I think that's a quest log. I'd have to doublecheck. I don't recall using it much. Not shown in screenshots.

* Text input box. It shows up above the large text output box on the mid-right side. Not shown in screenshots.

* I don't remember.

* Skill sheet. Not pictured in screenshots.

* Text output box. The large white thing in the lower-right of all the screenshots.

* Game Menu. Options and, most importantly, the quit button.

Quote
What kind of graphics options do you have within the client?

I'll have to answer this one when I get home; I didn't have to adjust anything to get it to run acceptably on my home machine.

Quote
What specs were you running it on and what kind of framerate were you seeing?

Been a while since I remembered my specs, so some of the exact feature names might be off.

AMD Athlon64 3500+
NVidia GeForce 6800 GT, 256MB, AGP8x
1GB RAM, some ridiculously fast speed (I think PC-3200 DDR)
SATA 7200RPM HDD
WinXP SP2

I think that should cover it. Most of the time the client runs smoothly (around 40-60 FPS, although I haven't turned the FPS meter on; that's a guesstimate), with a lot of stuttering when it loads an area. Over the last two patches, the load-stuttering seems to be decreasing in frequency, but the initial load time is also increasing, so I'd guess they're just caching more of the area up front.

Is this really a beta?

I was asking myself that roughly every five minutes.

This sounds almost like some weird incremental in-house testing, if all they are doing is enabling individual features in series and looking for bugs in each.

My big issue with the game is that it seems to be another 'waiting' game, where instead of actually doing some small and vaguely challenging skill-based task (ala Puzzle Pirates or Warioware), you just click on something and wait for the bar to finish scrolling across the screen. Is that what these actual 'maintenance' tasks are like?

Yes, that's pretty much what happens.

1. Find broken panel that you can fix (once you have all 5 tool types, you can fix anything, given time)
2. Walk over to and target panel
3. Equip tool(s)
4. Click function(s) on tool(s)
5. If stress meter gets high, wait 10 seconds and goto 4.
6. Continue until all bars are empty.
7. Profit! (well, a little bit anyway)

All in all, fixing a panel with shitty tools takes 1-2 minutes after you get it targeted; with okay tools, it takes about 30-60 seconds. With good tools, 15-30 seconds, probably.

As for the 'beta' itself, I'm reminded of SW:G's beta 2 phase, where they eventually turned everything except for emotes, chat, and logging-in off in order to make the server stable. It's not quite that bare-bones, but it's not much more complex, either.

So the entire defining feature of the game just isn't in yet?

That's like Shadowbane shipping without PVP.

Precisely.

I did hear some NPCs yawning this morning when I logged in to see if they'd issued a patch, but I was unable to locate them and suffer through trying to get them to do something for your entertainment and edification.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 11:15:35 AM by Yoru »
Soukyan
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Reply #9 on: March 10, 2006, 11:59:13 AM

Thanks so much for the thorough reply, Yoru.  smiley

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Evangolis
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Reply #10 on: March 11, 2006, 10:58:17 AM

Why isn't this a single player game?  What aspect of the basic core gameplay requires, or even involves, other players?

Why isn't there a tutorial?  A small shop needs retention, which means the first houor of play is vital.  The turtorial should be polished and fun.  Here it does not exist.

Barely playable, but they are making it better all the time?  Where have we heard this before?

It is good to see that people still make bad MMOs the way they used to.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
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Reply #11 on: March 11, 2006, 11:21:01 AM

Why isn't this a single player game?  What aspect of the basic core gameplay requires, or even involves, other players?

The core gameplay (managing conflicting agendas) definitely requires and involves other players.  The problem is that the core gameplay hasn't been implemented yet.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Evangolis
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Reply #12 on: March 11, 2006, 07:15:24 PM

Well, I suppose they'll be releasing the core gameplay as part of the Super Sekrit Client patch.  That's always worked before.

The sarcasm here is aimed at any unwashed waifs following their first MMO, not anyone who has been following this industry for six months.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
Soln
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Reply #13 on: March 13, 2006, 08:15:33 AM

I'd rather play Uncle Owen

sarcasm aside, very early days indeed and not good they exposed this so early to the limited public.  Gamers are quick to judge.  /tch

Hope it improves and I will try it out
JoeTF
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Reply #14 on: March 13, 2006, 02:13:29 PM

Yup, this beta is more like alpha, I can only add really poor pathing ane character movement. I played at the very beginning, when there were quite few players logged on and moving was a real chore. Not to mentuion, you can click on walls and that will further consfuse pathing system.

Still I hope that eventually, they will add all those key features before launch(which won't happen this month, or Q1 either) and it'll end like nice, playable game. In the end, they managed to go from "omg crases every 7 mins", to "work pretty stable, but featureless"
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Reply #15 on: March 13, 2006, 02:29:02 PM

Fixing panels that repeatedly spawn is hardly a step up from killing mobs who repeatedly spawn.

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Samwise
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Reply #16 on: March 13, 2006, 02:47:53 PM

Fixing panels that repeatedly spawn is hardly a step up from killing mobs who repeatedly spawn.

I agree.  The thing that interests me in Seed isn't the panel-fixing/foozle-whacking gameplay, though, since I've pretty much given up on low-level MMOG gameplay ever being fun in the slightest.  The thing that interests me is the larger game (what some might call a "metagame") of groups of players managing resources and priorities to achieve goals that have noticeable effects on the game world.

Again, though, that's the part that hasn't even been implemented yet.  So /meh.  Maybe they'll sit on it for another year, get it working, and do another beta that actually has some of the features they advertised.  More likely the entire thing is vapor, though.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Rhonstet
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Reply #17 on: March 14, 2006, 03:17:04 PM

Fixing panels that repeatedly spawn is hardly a step up from killing mobs who repeatedly spawn.

At least whacking mobs offers some sense of risk.

But at least the game sounds less Diku-ish.  What if it wasn't?

"Oh noes, the ConsoleMonster broke my Epic Hammer and my Kajigger of Reconfubulating!"
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 03:19:14 PM by Rhonstet »

We now return to your regularly scheduled foolishness, already in progress.
Yoru
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Reply #18 on: March 14, 2006, 04:36:51 PM

Fixing panels that repeatedly spawn is hardly a step up from killing mobs who repeatedly spawn.

At least whacking mobs offers some sense of risk.

But at least the game sounds less Diku-ish.  What if it wasn't?

"Oh noes, the ConsoleMonster broke my Epic Hammer and my Kajigger of Reconfubulating!"

You make fun, but the design, as written, calls for tools to wear out and eventually break, requiring replacement or 'recharging'.

Currently unimplemented or unreleased.
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Reply #19 on: March 18, 2006, 01:19:41 PM

Update! Mid-March Edition

I've gotten a chance to play with the NPCs for a few minutes. They currently wander aimlessly in a few sections of the world-space. When clicked on, they stand still (or teleport away and then stand still) for about a minute and say 'Yes'. You can target them and emote or talk to them.

It's kind of like interacting with a lobotomized ELIZA system. All text input I've tried so far gets generic replies like "Uh huh..." Emotes are usually returned in kind, occasionally with an accompanying line of speech. For example, /wave will cause the NPC to wave back, walk to your location (literally; they stand inside of you) and possibly say something like "Is there a problem?"

When you have an NPC highlighted, a little portrait shows up in the upper-right, along with a name and a mood. The mood will, supposedly, eventually modify how they react to you. For now, you can boost it by spamming /smile at the NPC a lot. They do visually react to the emotes, and the animations are actually pretty good.

Unfortunately, interacting with an NPC is still a very crashy experience. In fact, hanging around in an area with a lot of NPCs is likely to cause your game client to crash within 15 minutes; my average is closer to 5-10.

While actual lag may have decreased, the decision to force the client to wait for the server to validate a move causes a 5-10 second lag between clicking on a spot and your character actually moving there.

Also, since people apparently complained about the RSI-inducing requirement to click on tools dozens of times, they implemented 'auto-attack'; clicking on a tool's function now performs that function repeatedly until you deactivate it.

I'll have you know that I suffer for you.
Raguel
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Reply #20 on: March 21, 2006, 11:57:06 AM



I've been in the beta now; my experiences are pretty much the same, except worse because I have a really crappy computer. :-(

Research isn't in yet.  :-(

Some npcs have stories now, but I'm still patching atm.

Yoru, I hope you can join me in trying to convince the devs to delay launch as much as possible; most people seem intent on playing the role of Pollyanna. rolleyes

Or maybe I'm being optimistic to believe that they can get it done in any length of time. :p
Soln
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Reply #21 on: March 21, 2006, 05:52:50 PM

Here's something:  apparently the folks who made Runescape are making Seed.  That I did not know.  And I won't take the time to prove it's true.  Nite.
Raguel
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Reply #22 on: March 22, 2006, 02:43:23 AM


Hah. I'd view that as a good thing (I'm assuming you don't :p) because that would mean they'd have experience with mmogs. ;)

I'm going to say something incredibly stupid but bare with me. Raph started a discussion about using known game mechanics (like combat) for a new type of game (healing/medical). I thought it was crap, for the same reason I doubt Sigil's crafting and diplomacy: If I know it's the same mechanics but with a different "skin" it won't be anymore compelling than a generic mob with a different "skin". I'd see right through it.

But as I "play" Seed (I have to admit, when I started I spent more time trying to get into the game than actually playing it) I noticed that this "new skin" works for me; I don't worry a lot about levels and such. Even tho repairing isn't intrinsically fun at all, I enjoy doing repairs, because I think Bad Things (tm) will happen if we don't. (More than likely, Bad Things (tm) aren't even in the game yet, but I can hope :p).
HaemishM
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Reply #23 on: March 22, 2006, 07:48:49 AM

What if the Bad Thing (TM) are actually trying to play the game?  evil

Raguel
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Reply #24 on: March 22, 2006, 08:19:45 AM


lol pwned :(
Samwise
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Reply #25 on: March 22, 2006, 07:04:32 PM

Quote
I'm going to say something incredibly stupid but bare with me.

I don't see how us getting naked is going to improve matters.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Raguel
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Reply #26 on: March 22, 2006, 09:45:40 PM



It was late, I was drunk, and my little brother was using the computer.   tongue
Hoax
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Reply #27 on: March 23, 2006, 07:43:25 AM

Don't forget that you were lagged!

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Soukyan
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Reply #28 on: March 23, 2006, 12:21:58 PM

Update! Mid-March Edition

I've gotten a chance to play with the NPCs for a few minutes. They currently wander aimlessly in a few sections of the world-space. When clicked on, they stand still (or teleport away and then stand still) for about a minute and say 'Yes'. You can target them and emote or talk to them.

It's kind of like interacting with a lobotomized ELIZA system. All text input I've tried so far gets generic replies like "Uh huh..." Emotes are usually returned in kind, occasionally with an accompanying line of speech. For example, /wave will cause the NPC to wave back, walk to your location (literally; they stand inside of you) and possibly say something like "Is there a problem?"

When you have an NPC highlighted, a little portrait shows up in the upper-right, along with a name and a mood. The mood will, supposedly, eventually modify how they react to you. For now, you can boost it by spamming /smile at the NPC a lot. They do visually react to the emotes, and the animations are actually pretty good.

Unfortunately, interacting with an NPC is still a very crashy experience. In fact, hanging around in an area with a lot of NPCs is likely to cause your game client to crash within 15 minutes; my average is closer to 5-10.

While actual lag may have decreased, the decision to force the client to wait for the server to validate a move causes a 5-10 second lag between clicking on a spot and your character actually moving there.

Also, since people apparently complained about the RSI-inducing requirement to click on tools dozens of times, they implemented 'auto-attack'; clicking on a tool's function now performs that function repeatedly until you deactivate it.

I'll have you know that I suffer for you.

The potential to be interesting is there, damnit! I can feel it. Oh wait a minute... that was just gas. In any case, thanks for the update. It was a smart move to add the NPCs with minimal functionality in order to fix bugs and stabilize the game first. I can't imagine that clients would stay connected even a minute if the whole system had been thrown in for testing. They are at least playing it smart and scaling up slowly. Now, if they would just delay the release by about six months and continue to plod through beta slowly implementing and fixing and adding testers as needed, they might be alright. I have a hunch that the release date won't be pushed back further. I don't know how the game is being funded, but if it is an investor, they may not have full control over when they need to go primetime. Actually, I fear that they may never go live with it. I remember testing Black Moon Chronicles a few years back and that game was quite far along in development and testing when the company making it canned the project seemingly out of nowhere. Whether it was no longer feasible or they just grew tired of the length of the development cycle, I'll never know. The cool thing was that they gave control of the beta servers over to some of the top testers so that beta testers could continue to play for free for a while. Then one day, the server was taken offline and most likely reallocated to use making money somewhere else in the company. Wow, I went way off topic, eh? Let's just hope the same thing doesn't happen to Seed.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
Dren
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Reply #29 on: March 29, 2006, 10:15:23 AM

Quote
I'm going to say something incredibly stupid but bare with me.

I don't see how us getting naked is going to improve matters.

I've found it rarely hurts.  Judging by the preview, this game might need some nudity.
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Reply #30 on: April 19, 2006, 08:52:51 AM

Update

From the official Seed site http://www.seedthegame.com:

Quote
Seed Announces Open Beta Week [April 18, 2006]

Community at Large Invited to Participate.

Aarhus, Denmark - April 18, 2006 - Runestone Game Development, developers of the upcoming genre-shattering massively multiplayer game Seed, announced today that starting on Tuesday, April 25th, its beta testing program will be open for an entire week to all who apply.

"We are looking forward to seeing crowds of players experiencing our game world as well as stressing and testing our systems to the limit," said Lars Kroll Kristensen, CEO of Runestone Game Development. “This will mark the home stretch of the development process as we prepare for next month’s launch.”

Everyone is invited to enter the Open Beta Week. Players need only apply at www.seedthegame.com no later than Monday, April 24th.

This open testing phase will end just prior to the Seed launch on May 2nd, 2006. The client will then be available for free download, along with its 14-day free trial, at www.seedthegame.com.

I'm hoping that quite a bit has been added and changed since the last Yoru update, but judging by the lack of updates, he either threw in the towel or has been really busy. NDA In any case, now we can all check it out for ourselves... in a few more days, that is. Hello Kitty

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
HaemishM
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Reply #31 on: April 19, 2006, 09:06:20 AM

I tried it for about 5 minutes a few days ago.

My character cannot walk. Or he can, but every few seconds a magical orange road work cone appears in front of him, pausing his forward moonwalking for seconds. Sometimes, even without the magic cone, he just can't walk. I don't know whether to attribute this lack of mobility to lag or retardation. The interface is terrible. I cannot figure out how to do any of the repairs. I can barely make it down the hall.

I don't think I'll be helping with the stress test. This isn't even a good walking simulator.

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Reply #32 on: April 19, 2006, 10:50:53 AM

The orange cone is your 'movement destination'. The lag is, well... lag. It's a constant problem, probably caused in part by the 6000+km separating me from Denmark.

And yeah, I've been busy at work lately, which leaves little time for me to waste previewing bad Dutch MMOs. I encourage you to have liquor on hand if you intend on trying it out.
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Reply #33 on: April 25, 2006, 11:00:27 AM

I got a beta invite.

Would I be better off throwing it away?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Reply #34 on: April 25, 2006, 11:14:51 AM

I don't know.  I ignored mine.  It didn't look especially interesting to me for whatever reason.   undecided

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