One problem with the raid content

[sinij]

The idea of "the raid" is faulty to the core.

True story.

[Margalis]

If I can just say in all seriousness :  You either need to look up, or get, a new definition of the word 'friend'.

Bullshit that happens to almost everyone.

In WoW, you mean.

In FFXI players routinely help each other. Not just friends but people they don't know at all. If I haven't found a party I'll find a group of lowbies and help heal them. I had trouble getting my subjob quest done until a random high level white mage helped me. I had trouble getting my airship items until a random friend of a friend came by with a high level thief (higher drop rate on items). That person stayed not only until his friend got their items but until our entire group got our items.

If you need a raise, people will come from another zone to help you out. If I pass someone low level I will buff them. That's just the way it is in FFXI - people are helpful. A lot of the time in the game consists of groups of very different levels doing coffer key quests, airship pass quests, and things like that, where usually a couple of the people already have the items and are just helping out.

I don't know why that is exactly. It may be because the game was Japanese and they are like that, and it carried over. The player base is fairly mature in general. (Literally 10x more mature than WoW)

[Rasix]

 

This thread is turning into a Chuck Norris fact.

[Hoax]

If I can just say in all seriousness :  You either need to look up, or get, a new definition of the word 'friend'.

Bullshit that happens to almost everyone.

In WoW, you mean.

In FFXI players routinely help each other. Not just friends but people they don't know at all. If I haven't found a party I'll find a group of lowbies and help heal them. I had trouble getting my subjob quest done until a random high level white mage helped me. I had trouble getting my airship items until a random friend of a friend came by with a high level thief (higher drop rate on items). That person stayed not only until his friend got their items but until our entire group got our items.

If you need a raise, people will come from another zone to help you out. If I pass someone low level I will buff them. That's just the way it is in FFXI - people are helpful. A lot of the time in the game consists of groups of very different levels doing coffer key quests, airship pass quests, and things like that, where usually a couple of the people already have the items and are just helping out.

I don't know why that is exactly. It may be because the game was Japanese and they are like that, and it carried over. The player base is fairly mature in general. (Literally 10x more mature than WoW)

Still calling bullshit, in FFXI there are plenty of things that would prevent me from playing with a more established friend, sure the nature of subjobs means that he might be able to switch to another job that is in my level range and come party with me but if my friend is in a HNM linkshell and I'm just starting out or just getting my first job to cap I'm not going to get to participate in the same parts of the game as him/her that is just the nature of the beast.

No effort will ever be made in level-based systems to make all levels usefull in all most of the content.  Because then you "trivialize" levels or somesuch garbage.  Back to EvE again (sorry sorry)...

A frigate/AF/inty setup for tackling, which costs a tiny fraction of a BS/HAC is still usefull in PvP.  Same goes for EW cruisers like the Blackbird. 

The entire tracking & turret resolution versus speed & signature size is an elegant system to make most ships viable in most situations.  Level based games dont have that, they have ridiculous systems typically that mean that all your attacks will miss a higher level PC or NPC and all your spells will be resisted.  This is how they add "value" to leveling up, the entire DING-GRATZ mentality and gameplay experience is the antithesis of allowing everyone to feel usefull.

[Venkman]

Levels persist because they work, no matter how much veterans who've played too many level-based games hate them by now.

And I can appreciate Margalis' enthusiasm for FFXI, but I wonder if their accounts are similar to ones folks had in old-world EQ1. Tough games will lose players, to be sure, but those that remain can form bonds because of that toughness.

Easier games can require less cammaraderie basically.

[Nija]

This thread is turning into a Chuck Norris fact.

You are a Chuck Norris fact.

[Hoax]

Levels persist because they work, no matter how much veterans who've played too many level-based games hate them by now.

Levels persist in the same way that Holywood remakes of old movies and sequels to terrible movies that made money persist, it has nothing to do with "working" unless by working you mean sucking ass but turning some level of profit because alternatives to the ass-suckage are few and far between and often often only available to the person who is truly looking for them.

[Krakrok]

Re: Levels...

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result - all the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, turn off the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Again, replace a third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well.

Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing the fourth and fifth original monkeys, all the monkeys that have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.

Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been around here.

[Margalis]

You really butchered the spelling of frat brother there.

 

[Glazius]

Levels persist because they work, no matter how much veterans who've played too many level-based games hate them by now.

Levels persist in the same way that Holywood remakes of old movies and sequels to terrible movies that made money persist, it has nothing to do with "working" unless by working you mean sucking ass but turning some level of profit because alternatives to the ass-suckage are few and far between and often often only available to the person who is truly looking for them.

No, levels persist because otherwise the world is a featureless grey blob.

Yeah, your level 1 guy can't dent the level 50 dragon. So let's go to a skill-based system!

Now your skill rank 1 swordsman can't dent the dodge rank 50 dragon. Okay, let's go to a raw equipment system!

_Now_ your attack power 40 broadsword can't dent the defense power 500 dragon. Okay, screw NPCs, let's let everyone select from carefully mathematically balanced choices of gear and let them prevail by skill alone!

_Now_ your ladder-rank 6000 self has no prayer against the ladder-rank 3 catass.

Levels measure relative power, and there will _always_ be power differences. Always.

Back to the whole raid thing: there are, broadly, three (four?) advancement tracks in WoW. XP level, buyable equipment power, bind-on-pickup equipment power, and, uh, optionally tradeskills. At level 60, the first track stops, then the second and optional fourth slow and stop, so that leaves the third, which is a random-strength variable-interval reward system, and as any behavioral psychologist can tell you that's the most addictive.

--GF

[Ironwood]

Um.

Seriously, you both have different ideas of 'friends' than I do.  I have 3 lvl 60's now and I still run through the lower 54-60 quests with my friends because, er, they are my friends.  Indeed, once you start to get epics and the like, it's even easier to help them out....

That's what friends do.  It's the very definition of friendship to help someone out even when there's nothing in it for you and it may even be something you don't particularly want to do.

As I say, either get a new definition of friends or just start saying 'acquaintances' or 'guildies' or 'fucking newbs'.


 

[Calantus]

Um.

Seriously, you both have different ideas of 'friends' than I do.  I have 3 lvl 60's now and I still run through the lower 54-60 quests with my friends because, er, they are my friends.  Indeed, once you start to get epics and the like, it's even easier to help them out....

That's what friends do.  It's the very definition of friendship to help someone out even when there's nothing in it for you and it may even be something you don't particularly want to do.

As I say, either get a new definition of friends or just start saying 'acquaintances' or 'guildies' or 'fucking newbs'.


 

I wouldn't help my brother do 54-60 quests unless he needed keying. He doesn't need that uber blue item he's been eyeing any more than I need to never step foot in LBRS/UBRS/etc ever again. This is someone who IRL I lend/borrow money to/from, and who has access to basically any item I possess. In WoW we've leveled 2 sets of 60s together as well as numerous alts to various stages and we basically share inventories/banks. I'll take an hour's drive in the heat and no aircon to pick him up so he doesn't have to use public transport, I'll even farm a few hours so he can buy a sweet item if I'm not busy, but I WILL NOT run his ass through some lame dungeon to get an item/quest he doesn't really need. If he bugs me enough I'd do it eventually, but he knows as well as I do that making people do things they don't want to just for your benefit is not something you should be doing lightly.

That's my brother. A raw recruit I've never/hardly played with has jack-all chance of getting me to run an instance I don't need just for them. I'm not unique in that view.

EDIT: It's not selfishness either. I have exactly 1 item I can upgrade with a blue (and I'm wearing 50% blues... I just took care the get the best blues) and the one I have is pretty low level so I definately want to replace it. I just want to not ever find myself in that instance again more than I want that item. It's basically the same thing.

[Ironwood]

Baffling.

Carry on.

[Merusk]

Baffling.

Carry on.

So many years reading and chatting with us, yet you still don't understand us "colonials" at all, do ya, Ironwood?

FWIW, I agree with you.

[Paelos]

As disturbing as it is to agree with Calantus, I do on this one. Maybe not to the extent I wouldn't run my own brother through shit, but I do know that people in my guild get on my nerves about lower level runs. They always want to run Mauradon, Sunken Temple, or BRD. I'm like, I will run BRD if it's part of a quest chain you need to level or get to Onyxia. I flat-out refuse to run Mauradon or ST because they are all about getting loot that you will dump in 5 levels. I don't run instances to help people get loot, with a few exceptions: The Deadmines, Stockades, and sometimes Gnomer. There is a big reason for that, time. Those really low instances take less than an hour. The ones closer to 50 take 2-3, and you get nothing from doing it.

The point is that Calantus is right, they don't "need" those items at that point any more than they "need" my help. There wasn't anybody there when I was leveling up, so I just skipped them and moved on. Hell, Mauradon wasn't even in the game. At 50, suck it up and grind and stop pestering people with stupid quests. Quests mean jack and shit after 50.

[cevik]

I flat-out refuse to run Mauradon or ST because they are all about getting loot that you will dump in 5 levels.

The ST quest for almost every class has the very first piece of "Endgame" gear that you will ever get (the trinket).  You should probably be helping people get things like this:

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51413

Everyone also needs to run through ZF at least once.. as everyone will need this:

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=2961

[Paelos]

Believe me, if it was priests asking for help, I'd do it in a second. It's the people with useless classes that we already have an asston of that bother me. Yeah, I'm really itching to help another hunter get to 60 there, sparky. That'll save us.

[cevik]

Believe me, if it was priests asking for help, I'd do it in a second. It's the people with useless classes that we already have an asston of that bother me. Yeah, I'm really itching to help another hunter get to 60 there, sparky. That'll save us.

So the argument has gone from "I'd take my friend through if it was something he needed, but it's nothing he needs so fuck him" to "well sure he may need the stuff, but he's a class I don't really need so fuck him"..

Okay..

[Paelos]

Believe me, if it was priests asking for help, I'd do it in a second. It's the people with useless classes that we already have an asston of that bother me. Yeah, I'm really itching to help another hunter get to 60 there, sparky. That'll save us.

So the argument has gone from "I'd take my friend through if it was something he needed, but it's nothing he needs so fuck him" to "well sure he may need the stuff, but he's a class I don't really need so fuck him"..

Okay..

Priests are always the exception to the rule, you know that.

[Yegolev]

Yeah, your level 1 guy can't dent the level 50 dragon. So let's go to a skill-based system!

Now your skill rank 1 swordsman can't dent the dodge rank 50 dragon. Okay, let's go to a raw equipment system!

_Now_ your attack power 40 broadsword can't dent the defense power 500 dragon. Okay, screw NPCs, let's let everyone select from carefully mathematically balanced choices of gear and let them prevail by skill alone!

_Now_ your ladder-rank 6000 self has no prayer against the ladder-rank 3 catass.

Levels measure relative power, and there will _always_ be power differences. Always.

You are constraining your thinking to the established power system.  If you adjust the numbers somewhat so that the attack 40 sword can do something, proportionately, to the 500 defense dragon, then you are getting there.  It's probably not the mechanic of levels that causes the frustration, it's the mechanic that prohibits the weakest from having any impact on the strongest.  I think I could get behind a level system where it was possible for fifteen level five players to take down one or two level seventy players/mobs.  You can have power differences that aren't so extreme but are still meaningful.

[Nebu]

Suggesting a more linear power curve rather than a logarithmic one has been done. The problem is that the common mmog gamer wants to be significantly more powerful with level.  They want to grind to some level independant of their ability (time the constraint) and once achieving that level, have the ability to pwn n00bz wit impunity! This is in stark contrast to the lot of us here wanting a more linear power curve determined by a more skill-weighted system.

In the words of Haemish: Niche baby!

[Yegolev]

Fine with me, I tire of the common MMOG gamer and my impotence in retaliating against shitfuckers.  Player skill is my new topic du jour.

[cevik]

Priests are always the exception to the rule, you know that.

Why?  Because you need them (selfish bastard!)?  Or because that particular trinket is more "usefull" than other classes trinkets from that quest?  If it's the later then you are overlooking quite a few "endgame" trinkets that come from that quest.. for example, a lock isn't going to find ANYTHING like this in the rest of the game:

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52072

If you're forcing your lock's to skip ST because "they don't need the stuff there" they are really missing out on something they can use forever..

[Paelos]

Um, yes because we need priests. That's exactly the point. They are the rarest class in the game. If the question is, will I amend my rules to help a priest because priests are the most valuable, the answer is yes.

Otherwise, no I don't think the trinkets are all that valuable. Some would disagree, but it's not game-breaking to miss them. Get the DM trinkets and I think you're better off.

[Margalis]

A friend in need is a friend indeed.

Words of wisdom.

You help your "friend" only because it helps you. Yeah...your idea of friend is my idea of random schlub. You're missing the whole friend part of friend there.

[Paelos]

I'm talking about guildees, not friends. Some of them I do consider friends, and I do help them. Some are newbies another officer invited that I don't care for at all. In my case, the ones asking usually are random shlubs. Now, if my RL friends played the game, I would help them get going, PL them when I could, etc. However, there comes a point when asking for favors and the like where people are basically saying that their time and their needs are greater than your time and your needs. It's a case by case thing, but I think we all know when somebody is trying to take your help for granted.

That being said, NONE of my RL friends play these games at all, and think they are odd.

[Calantus]

A friend in need is a friend indeed.

If a friend is in need (key) I'll help. If a friend is in want (10% drop blue item) he can keep on wanting if I've done the instance so many times I can't stand the sight of it. If it means so much to them anyway I'll help after a little persuasion, but if they make a habit of making me do things I don't want to do they are not a true friend. Being somebody's friend doesn't make you their slave or their bitch.

[Venkman]

Most people in my guild didn't bother begging for help to run dungeons for "uber" gear because they know they'll outgrow it anyway. ST and ZF are not Maraudon or BRD or LBRS though. That, too, is established. WoW is a knowledge-based gamed.

The problem is that the common mmog gamer wants to be significantly more powerful with level.  They want to grind to some level independant of their ability (time the constraint) and once achieving that level, have the ability to pwn n00bz wit impunity!

Common MMOG gamers do not want to grind shit. They want adventure. They want a clearly defined goal with a clearly defined reward. Levels have done that better than skills because skills have always ended up either being unbalanced train wrecks requiring other players dictate templates anyway, or are so numerous, they're confusing.

More importantly, these games aren't just levels anyway. They are also skill in many cases (EQ1, WoW, EQ2). You can't just gain a level and be all uber. You can't ignore a Dagger skill for 60 levels then expect to be a backstabbing fiend at the endgame. Levels cap and unlock skills, but they are not the only factor. You know this of course, but I think it's important to not ignore the Skill-based component of these Level-based games.

Further, yes, MMOG gamers want to lord over stuff they once died to. So? How is it a bad thing to be able to prove the investment you've made is worth it. We've been doing that since D&D, which was in no way shape or form a "commonly" played game anyway. Levels provide clear rewards and goals and a clear indication of relative power.

Finally, tell me what game Skills weren't referred to as Levels anyway. SWG? "I'm a 4-3-4-4 BH". UO? "I'm a 6xGM whatever working on my seventh". Wish? Heh. Eve may work here, but it's still a fairly niche game, as was UO, as was SWG, as is pretty much any skills-based games which is the reason why Levels are still the default anyway.

I don't condemn people for liking their levels. I actually like both, having enjoyed both the passive predictability (and therefore casual) nature of understanding levels as well as the freedom of customization with skills that was never truly free anyway (certain skill combines in UO just weren't done, and not just because templates were the right thing to do).

[Margalis]

Anyway about levels and such. If you look at how a typical advancement scheme works a level 20 character might have twice the HP of a level 10 character, which already makes them twice as powerful. Add to that they hit twice as often, dodge twice as often, hit harder, hit faster, etc etc and you see the problem.

However imagine a level 15 guy is really only 50% better than a level 10 guy. This means the level 15 guy really can't take on mobs that much tougher.

Usually because of the non-linear power/level relationship you can fight an entirely new type of mob every few levels. At level 15 the ultra-lizard you fight might be 3 times as powerful as the level 10 lizard. With a flatter levelling curve you still be fighting the same lizard maybe only slightly tougher.

So the steep curve allows for more differentation of enemies, which is a good thing.

[Nebu]

Edit: Not worth it.

[Nebu]

More importantly, these games aren't just levels anyway. They are also skill in many cases (EQ1, WoW, EQ2). You can't just gain a level and be all uber. You can't ignore a Dagger skill for 60 levels then expect to be a backstabbing fiend at the endgame. Levels cap and unlock skills, but they are not the only factor. You know this of course, but I think it's important to not ignore the Skill-based component of these Level-based games.

It would take me a day to argue the fine details... but here's an example: Skills only play a role when players are of roughly the same level.  Levels override skills in most cases rendering the skills as just fluff associated with the levels.  Compare a level 10 with maxxed skills to a level 30 with poorly developed skills.  The level 10 still has no chance.  This is the case in every mmog.  Skills are there to fine tune a player of a given level or possibly to even spread out players within a level.  Often this difference in skills within a level means less than having an extra level or two under one's belt.  This is the thrust of my issue.  I would argue that you can ignore skill levels if the disparity between character levels is high enough.  Skill levels play only a marginal role in distributing or differentiating players at a given character level.

I'll try to address the rest when I'm more awake.

[Glazius]

I think I could get behind a level system where it was possible for fifteen level five players to take down one or two level seventy players/mobs.  You can have power differences that aren't so extreme but are still meaningful.

John Newguy: L10 warrior LFG for Commonlands!
Ubermax Altboy: HAHAH n00bler commonlands is teh ghey.
Ubermax Altboy: L10 raid on Dragonroost LF5M!

I couldn't.

--GF

[cevik]

Get the DM trinkets and I think you're better off.

Uhh they aren't even remotely comprable..  Not even in the slightest remotest sense:

DM Trinket:  http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38514

ST Trinket:  http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52072

They don't even come close to serving the same purpose.  I'm confused as to how you can say one is "better" than the other..

You do realize that you can switch the item at your trinket slot at will, right?

[Alkiera]

Get the DM trinkets and I think you're better off.

Uhh they aren't even remotely comprable..  Not even in the slightest remotest sense:

DM Trinket:  http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38514

ST Trinket:  http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52072

They don't even come close to serving the same purpose.  I'm confused as to how you can say one is "better" than the other..

You do realize that you can switch the item at your trinket slot at will, right?

A free VW every half hour?  Dang, that's pretty sweet.

Alkiera

[cevik]

A free VW every half hour?  Dang, that's pretty sweet.

It (according to the devs, by design) doesn't break Demonic Sacrifice.  You can pull out a succy or a vw and sac them, then use the shard to summon your vw again and have either good damage (from the sac'd succy) or good health regen (from the sac'd vw), +10% damage reduction and a hp beast for your Soul Link and a insta cast shield.  It's an awesome setup in Alterac Valley, especially for rogue protection while travelling.  Add in Fel Domination and the ability to summon another VW instant, + improved Voidwalker and you have ~5000 hps in just shielding available, 10% damage reduction when not shielded, an extra 43% hps from Soul Link, AND either 4% health regen per 5 secs or +15% shadow damage.  But you know.. the DM trinket is better..

You can also leave the abyss shard in the bank and not ever have to worry about running out of shards and not being able to farm a few shards again (because farming shards when you have no shards at all really sucks)..