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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Archived: We distort. We decide.  |  Topic: The Social Experience 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: The Social Experience  (Read 15419 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #35 on: February 07, 2006, 10:28:40 AM

But they seem to be getting their social fix just fine as is, and I'm not sure what good it does to force a square peg into a round hole and make Johnny Phatl00tz play nice with other people.

Johnny Phatl00tz should be sterilized and put in a box, frozen in amber and displayed as a warning to future generations that somethings just shouldn't be allowed.

Social experience WOULD be forcing a square peg into a round hole, you are right. That's what Diku does. In order to get anyone to do anything in that kind of system, you have to provide a tangible reward. All of which has nothing to do with how fun the game is, just how to dole out the pellets. However, mechanics can be made to encourage grouping and socialiization without resorting to group xp bonuses, or experience schemes designed to be another treadmill.

Mesozoic
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Reply #36 on: February 07, 2006, 11:41:59 AM

But what we've been saying about Diku all these years is that the loot, exp, and cash that people accumulate - thats all fine.  As long as the gameplay along the way is enjoyable.  What you're suggesting is actually what we're trying to get away from - forcing people to do things they don't want to do in exchange for a bigger e-peen. 

And the people who do enjoy it, the actual socializers, probably don't want to be forced to consort with the killers and the achievers, let alone have some asshole rub it in their face that he must be more popular because he has the  [Awesome Socializer Leggings].
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 01:25:59 PM by Mesozoic »

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HaemishM
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Reply #37 on: February 07, 2006, 12:12:06 PM

But what we've been saying about Diku all these years is that the loot, exp, and cash that people accumulate - thats all fine.  As long as the gameplay along the way is enjoyable.  What you're suggesting is actually what we're trying to get away from - forcing people to do things they don't want to do in exchange for a bigger e-peen. 

And the people who do enjoy it, the actual socializers, probably don't want to be forced to consort with the killers and the achievers, let alone have some asshole rub it in their face that he must be more popular because he has the  [Awesome Socializer Leggings].

Which is actually why I say social experience would be a bad thing, because socializers don't want it, and neither do achievers. But if it was there, both would be compelled to go after it, simply because it offered tangible rewards.

SuperPopTart
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Reply #38 on: February 07, 2006, 12:27:20 PM

Not that I am ever able to form cohesive thought, let me try in response to this article.

I agree with social experience in that I believe you should get some sort of reward or incentive for an ability to group with five or six people, withstanding them for a period of time longer than really needs to be necessary. I like that this would perhaps merge communities divided by guilds more/less powerful and in times of need for people, enable them to expand their sphere of friends.

Perhaps a good way to dish and divide experience is in terms of ranks. Yes, you would get experience towards your level with each ranking that you achieve. No reward would be monetary and it would not be an actual item, instead it would go something like this:


If you earn 5,000 SEP you graduate to Rank One : Group Finder  (General Grouper but you only attain this after a number of successful groups without excessive death/wipes)
If you earn 15,000 SEP you graduate to Rank Two : Group Leader (Allows you to lead groups only, and find them)
If you earn 25,000 SEP you graduate to Rank Three : Group Manager (This let's you lead groups as well as assemble groups for raids, but does not let you form them)
If you earn 35,000 SEP you graduate to Rank Four : Raid Leader ( This let's you lead, assemble and choose groups, as well as Lead Raids)

If done in an effective way, you could really benefit from Social Experience. This would also allow those that have proven an ability to lead raids/groups and seperate them from the rest of us that just stand there and drool like an idiot.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 12:28:57 PM by SuperPopTart »

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Murgos
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Reply #39 on: February 07, 2006, 01:18:20 PM

And the people who do enjoy it, the actual socializers, probably don't want to be forced to consort with the killers and the achievers, let alone have some asshole rub it in their face that he must be more popular because he has the  [Awesome Socializer Leggings].

The forums broken.  I keep clicking on that and the pop-up window with the stats doesn't appear.  Fix plz.

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Sky
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Reply #40 on: February 07, 2006, 01:20:33 PM

SPT's system sounds kinda like Planetside. Add in Orbital Strikes ftw.

Mesozoic
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Reply #41 on: February 07, 2006, 01:26:24 PM

The forums broken.  I keep clicking on that and the pop-up window with the stats doesn't appear.  Fix plz.

My apologies.  Fixed.

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Kail
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Reply #42 on: February 08, 2006, 04:38:13 PM

Another point that a few people in this thread have hinted at is the idea that the "massive" part of Massively Multiplayer tends to inhibit social interatction because there are just too many people.  One of the points that Raph brought up in his "Do Levels Suck" bit was that one of the reasons for segregating players by level is that it divides them up into smaller groups and thus encourages social interaction.  In World of Warcraft, if I do Ragefire Chasm today and Wailing Caverns next week, if I'm grouping with the same people every time, we're likely to form some kind of relationship.  You get to know them, they get to know you.  If (as is more typical) there are enough people that I can run instances all week and never run into the same person twice, then I don't form any kind of connection with the other members of my party, because once the group finishes, I'll never see them again.  Segregating content by levels is one way to do encourage people to form groups with the same people (since theoretically you'd all be levelling up at the same rate), but there are other ways, like Paelos' village based community.  But either way, you'd need to tone down that "massive" aspect.
HaemishM
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Reply #43 on: February 08, 2006, 04:52:27 PM

I think toning down the massive aspect of MMOG's is probably one of the best steps to make them not suck so badly.

Niche, baby, niche.

Strazos
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Reply #44 on: February 08, 2006, 05:07:34 PM

I think toning down the massive aspect of MMOG's is probably one of the best steps to make them not suck so badly.

Niche, baby, niche.

EVE ++

One of the games I enjoyed the most over the years was Gemstone III/IV. Granted, it's a text game, but the pop is pretty small, so you kind of get to know people if you so choose. Though, I will concede that the mechanics of the game produce blocks of downtime, which encourages social interaction between characters.

Too bad the game has an obscene grind, or I would probably still be playing every now and then.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 05:10:16 PM by Strazos »

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Sky
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Reply #45 on: February 09, 2006, 08:22:44 AM

Quote
In World of Warcraft, if I do Ragefire Chasm today and Wailing Caverns next week, if I'm grouping with the same people every time, we're likely to form some kind of relationship.  You get to know them, they get to know you.  If (as is more typical) there are enough people that I can run instances all week and never run into the same person twice, then I don't form any kind of connection with the other members of my party, because once the group finishes, I'll never see them again
This thought is biased by the idea of 'finishing' an area. If there were more equal challenges world-wide, then people who enjoy certain locales would tend to group together because of geographical habits. I could turn your example around and say that if I do Ragefire Chasm today, I'll still be doing it next week and the people I did it with originally will have moved on to Wailing Caverns.

Splitting the community by how much time they have to dedicate to a video game is bizarre. There are better ways.

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Reply #46 on: February 09, 2006, 01:59:28 PM

I was promised Haemish-angst.

As they say on the WoW forums 1/10.
HaemishM
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Reply #47 on: February 09, 2006, 03:55:55 PM

Not enough cockgobblers for you, eh?

voodoolily
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Reply #48 on: February 11, 2006, 05:06:26 PM

First of all, nice article Haemish.

A couple of thoughts/comments that are likely very un-unique but here goes. If I didn't know you all from f13 before I started EQ2, a) I probably never would've started playing in the first place and b) would probably not ever group with anyone except Sauced or perhaps the occassional stranger VERY once in awhile. It's only been a month or so and I'm already getting kinda burned out on the game (yeah, much of it stems from unforeseen annoyances derived from the patch, but that's neither here nor there). EQ2 is my first MMOG experience, and I've said it before, it's just AIM with all my f13 buddies. With something to do between posts. The reason I'm levelling so slowly is because I spend most of my time harvesting and chatting instead of fighting and crafting.

The group dynamic, for me, only works if I'm actually feeling up to coordinating with other people for an hour or so. I don't really do it for teh lewtz (since I hafta share anyway); there really isn't anything in it for me except maybe knocking out a quest or getting a little XP. But that's not the point. If I group it's because I'm feeling like a team player. If I'm not, I don't. Sure, it'd be nice to get a special little ding for doing it, but when I'm not it'd just feel like one more thing I'm lagging on.

I guess my only criticism is that if grouping or excelling at the social aspects of MMOGs becomes a task in itself, then what is sometimes the only fun part of the game will also begin to feel like work.


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SuperPopTart
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Reply #49 on: February 13, 2006, 07:38:15 AM

First of all, nice article Haemish.

A couple of thoughts/comments that are likely very un-unique but here goes. If I didn't know you all from f13 before I started EQ2, a) I probably never would've started playing in the first place and b) would probably not ever group with anyone except Sauced or perhaps the occassional stranger VERY once in awhile. It's only been a month or so and I'm already getting kinda burned out on the game (yeah, much of it stems from unforeseen annoyances derived from the patch, but that's neither here nor there). EQ2 is my first MMOG experience, and I've said it before, it's just AIM with all my f13 buddies. With something to do between posts. The reason I'm levelling so slowly is because I spend most of my time harvesting and chatting instead of fighting and crafting.

The group dynamic, for me, only works if I'm actually feeling up to coordinating with other people for an hour or so. I don't really do it for teh lewtz (since I hafta share anyway); there really isn't anything in it for me except maybe knocking out a quest or getting a little XP. But that's not the point. If I group it's because I'm feeling like a team player. If I'm not, I don't. Sure, it'd be nice to get a special little ding for doing it, but when I'm not it'd just feel like one more thing I'm lagging on.

I guess my only criticism is that if grouping or excelling at the social aspects of MMOGs becomes a task in itself, then what is sometimes the only fun part of the game will also begin to feel like work.



Voodoolily makes a very good point that honestly didn't cross my mind. We do indeed view experience as "The grind" and thus if we have to work for experience for the social aspect, it can without a doubt be a drawback. The social aspect of a game is important and really you shouldn't have to work for it.   Well.. most shouldn't. Others however..

Entirely.different.story

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Reply #50 on: February 13, 2006, 10:11:20 AM

Just a thought...but perhaps most of us here are too experienced and jaded to really experience the "social aspects" of MMOs now.

I remember when I first got into EQ. It was fun, grouping with random people was (mostly) fun. I kind of got to know people as I went from one hunting ground to the next as I rose through the ranks.

It just seems, at least for me, the more I've played over the years, the less inclined I am to group with random people. It was fine for me in EQ, but is every other MMO I've been in I've loathed grouping with other people.

Group in WoW? Ugh, only when I need to do an instance, and then the people talked as little as possible usually. EQ2? I did, because so many quests and areas required it; I hated it.

Grouping? With random people? Years ago I would have been fine with it, but now? Heh, fuck that.

just throwing it out there.

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Murgos
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Reply #51 on: February 13, 2006, 12:37:50 PM

In the early days I was FAR more trusting that the random person I was accepting a group invite from wasn't a complete asshat.  My eternal optimism told me that most of the people in most of the groups I joined would be mostly ok.

HAHAHAHAHA

That's why I don't join random pick-up groups anymore.

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Reply #52 on: February 13, 2006, 01:05:20 PM

I join and often assemble pick-up groups all the time in EQ2. 90% of the time it works out just fine. The death penalty is so small now, no one cares if the group wipes on a bad pull - even though a bad pull is hard to do in EQ2 unless you grab an epic mob by mistake.

I have never played WoW.
HaemishM
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Reply #53 on: February 13, 2006, 01:39:46 PM

Yeah, but the smaller the population (EQ2), the less chance of asshattery.

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Reply #54 on: February 13, 2006, 01:42:39 PM

Yeah, but the smaller the population (EQ2), the less chance of asshattery.

I don't know- it could be argued that the population self-selects for asshats by virtue of the game itself...

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Reply #55 on: February 20, 2006, 02:14:40 PM

As mentioned, I really like how Shadowbane handled the group.  I am torn about the group dynamics though, for the most part they seem to isolate content instead of open it up.  As someone mentioned, and I guess was not playing at the time it was true, UO had a system where in you learned from those you were near.  Of course, this could greif as much as help and was before the primitive group interface was implemented.  I would like to see a spiderweb effect that would link players in close proximity for contributions they are making, either questing or not in an area.  If the leaching had a zero impact on what a solo person could normally gather.

Thus, if you had 10 players out fighting the newb minions, if solo, a character would net 80xp, but when surrounded by those 9 other players that mob would net 98xp.  Or an enhanced skill up... and with the same locking of the mob as is currently the case for item/treasure foozle gain.

A grouping interface would only be needed if healing, threat, chaining could be setup.  And I still don't know why no one has implemented advanced features in it.. like selecting the main warrior and having all assists automatically go to the primary that warrior is fighting.  Or having a notice pop up on the group leader's window notifying them when someone is out of range, or loss of connection.

I am not sure making the games smaller niche's is needed, I think geography of the map needs to be exponentially increased.  It should involve a campaign to go from one side to the other.  I do have explorer leanings though...

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heck
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Reply #56 on: February 28, 2006, 04:24:30 PM

randomly clicking on any random idiot within range and inviting them, a la Guild Wars PVP lobbies, just to get the experience points

Bingo.  I agree that there need to be new models of experience gaining in mmogs, but it seems like there are few non-exploitable ways to do it. 

I'd argue that social efforts already pay off in mmogs, because being cool and helping people out makes it more likely that you will game regularly with cool people who will help you out.  The extra experience gained is because of the fact that you will always have a good group to run with.  The good group results in better items, and often your friends are more inclined to give you something they loot if you need it, just as you are the type to give things to people when they need it.  Karma in mmogs is real stuff!
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