Roid Relief

[Yoru]

Someone suggested a mining topic. I've been drinking and for some reason that compels me to use the ingame calculator. Here's some mining figures. Calculations are in Ore Units, which is the volume (m3) of ore your laser will pull.

Assumptions
Astrogeology 4
Mining 4
Miner IIs
No other bonuses (i.e. mining laser upgrades)

OSPREY (3 lasers) (w/ Caldari Cruiser 5)
168 units per minute per laser
504 units per minute total
** I ran checks and this number holds for both the Amarr and Minmatar cruisers that give +yield bonuses to mining lasers. Didn't bother with the gallente one, but if it's 3 lasers/+20% per level of cruiser or 4 lasers/+10% per level of cruiser, it's the same.

APOCALYPSE (8 lasers)
84 units per minute per laser
672 units per minute total
** Highest tanking ability of the three. Duh.

COVETOR (3 strip miner Is)
837 units per minute total (3/3 = 1 duh)
** Note, the covetor will actually pull in about 866 units, since it requires Astrogeo 5. I calculated without this bonus to keep it even. I'm calculating with skill 4s because.. uh.. that's what I have now.


Final analysis? Mining barges, if you're strictly mining ore, aren't a good investment of time or resources unless you go for the covetor. A mining cruiser with cruiser skill 4 roughly equals the output of a Retriever (skill 3) barge, and a mining cruiser with cruiser skill 5 marginally exceeds the Retriever. A mining cruiser with skill 4 is the least skill-intensive of the stuff up here and an order of magnitude cheaper to run. Besides, you're probably getting cruiser skill 4 anyway for battleships.

For 0.0 (or even lowsec) operations, the Apocalypse wins due to its tank and the large number of lowslots (7!) to fit stabs, mining laser upgrades/cpu upgrades, etc., into.

For absolute bulk ore extraction, or if you need to mine ice, the Covetor takes the day (duh), but you'll need a heavy guard to take it out of empire space, since the damn barges are made of paper.

more beer now.

edit: Note that these numbers change slightly when you factor in modulated mining laser IIs with the right crystals. It makes the barge even more fantabulously awesome in terms of raw output. The positions do not change, nor does the analysis. The numbers just go up. Ding, gratz.

[Yoru]

Zerosec ore distributions.

The distribution of ore in zerosec, unlike highsec, seems to be primarily dependent on the True Security of zerosec systems.

(True Security is the real security number, which goes from -1.0 to 1.0, and out to 5 significant digits. See more at the Grismar Wiki for details and a system search engine.)

From what I've found, in the region I scouted ( )...

Ochre is in -0.25 and below. Could be higher, didn't look hard.
Crokite is in -0.35 and below.
Bistot is in -0.45 and below.
Arkonor is in -0.85 and below, but could be higher. I did not check comprehensively for it.
Mercoxit I haven't seen, mostly because I forgot to look. Reports are that it's in -0.75 and below.

Yes, I have located systems (indeed a constellation) with huge amounts of bistot and arkonor in the same region that we've been recently considering operations in. No, those locations will not be posted. :P

[Yegolev]

The Gallente mining-bonus cruiser is the Vexor, and it actually gives bonuses to mining drones, not mining lasers.  I guess I still have not decided on the Exqueror over the Vexor, but I am going to have to train up some drone skills if I go Vexor.

[Reg]

Unfortunately, we Gallente haven't got anything as good as the Scythe when it comes to mining cruisers. I used the Vexor myself because its drone bay was large enough that I could carry both mining drones and attack drones that I could use to defend myself from NPC rats.

[Yegolev]

I am (at this moment) leaning toward Vexor, which means I'll have to come up with another million ISK over the Exqueror.  Seems like the balls-out-mining way to go would be to fill the drone bay with mining drones and fit actual guns to the Vexor, maybe one Miner II to help out, details hazy.  It depends on what sort of rate I end up getting from the drones.  I also don't know if it would be more efficient for me to skill up combat drones or gunnery; if I had to guess, I'd say skilling combat drones would be more efficient and I could eventually switch to mining lasers mounted on the boat once I got the drones up to speed.  Ship name: Beehive.

[Reg]

I am (at this moment) leaning toward Vexor, which means I'll have to come up with another million ISK over the Exqueror.  Seems like the balls-out-mining way to go would be to fill the drone bay with mining drones and fit actual guns to the Vexor, maybe one Miner II to help out, details hazy.  It depends on what sort of rate I end up getting from the drones.  I also don't know if it would be more efficient for me to skill up combat drones or gunnery; if I had to guess, I'd say skilling combat drones would be more efficient and I could eventually switch to mining lasers mounted on the boat once I got the drones up to speed.  Ship name: Beehive.

5 mining drones with decent skills are slightly better than one miner 2 laser so you definitely aren't going to want to use just the drones to mine with. I had 4 mining lasers and a small remote armor repairer on my Vexor so that I could repair damaged drones without having to redock. I did most of my mining in .5 space and did ok even with just 3 medium scout drones defending me. If you go lower than though the NPCs will be bigger and require more firepower to take care of.

As a Gallente you're cheating yourself if you don't train your drone skills high. Once you can deploy heavy drones or sentry drones you're laughing. Against NPCs anyway.

If you're anywhere near Nakugard let me know. I can give you a couple of Vexor BPCs or even make you one in exchange for minerals if you like.

[5150]

I am (at this moment) leaning toward Vexor, which means I'll have to come up with another million ISK over the Exqueror.  Seems like the balls-out-mining way to go would be to fill the drone bay with mining drones and fit actual guns to the Vexor, maybe one Miner II to help out, details hazy.  It depends on what sort of rate I end up getting from the drones.  I also don't know if it would be more efficient for me to skill up combat drones or gunnery; if I had to guess, I'd say skilling combat drones would be more efficient and I could eventually switch to mining lasers mounted on the boat once I got the drones up to speed.  Ship name: Beehive.

A word of warning, NPC rats like shooting mining drones

[Yoru]

I believe mining drones' efficiency is also hampered by the fact that (I think) they have to travel back and forth between the rock and your ship. For group mining, you tend to want to stay in one place (communal jetcan, to make hauling faster), so you won't be getting maximal efficiency from drones if you're not 'grazing' along as you deplete the belt.

I wish there was a module or skill that extended laser range. Dropping back down to Miner IIs from Strip Is is annoying.

[Yegolev]

I had 4 mining lasers and a small remote armor repairer on my Vexor so that I could repair damaged drones without having to redock.

When the lighbulb went off, it almost knocked me unconscious.

[Yegolev]

The short overview is that I got some time to myself on Feb 2 and managed to harvest enough isogen in about four hours to buy a discount Exequror (just over 3mil).  This is the "cargo bonus" Gall cruiser, if you don't remember.  I got my scattered crap together and dicked around with fittings that afternoon.  I can say confidently that fielding a full compliment of mining drones is not even close to the yield from fitting three Miner II, so currently my development path is that: ship-mounted mining lasers with combat drones.  Additionally I should learn to fit some CPU upgrades and I might be able to fit a fourth Miner II.

I have two Hobgoblins, light scout drones, which I don't remember buying so I must have found them or gotten them as a mission reward.  I have been neglecting my drone skills (bad Frenchy!) because I didn't have any way to haul the fuckers until now.  The two Hobs have absolutely zero trouble dispatching anything that even looks at me funny in .7 belts.  In fact the NPCs have not even been shooting at them, and the rats have little hope of penetrating my shields, but I do have a remote repair unit laying around somewhere that I need to learn the skill for.

I am getting close to being ready to move to Neesher.  Assuming I can find omber in Claulenne, I am up to +1800 units per trip, and a trip seems to take about seven minutes but I am still working on tweaking things; this just means that I am loathe to leave someplace with such high payout and low risk.  I am a tad nervous about the move and will probably fit any random gun I can find on the cruiser before I start hauling my junk.  I don't even know what the combat fitting will look like at this point, but it will probably be 100% small hybrid turrets.  I'll speak up in chat when I am ready.

[Hoax]

The trip down is fairly safe, I went out of my way to avoid some of the heavily trafficked systems (Jita for example, wierd things happen in Jita) then it was autopilot while watching anime for me.

It'd be nice to have a real miner in the area, we were clearing 0.1 belts just for kicks last night, would have been nice if there was someone eating those juicy unprotected roids.

[Yegolev]

would have been nice if there was someone eating those juicy unprotected roids.

Awesome.  Ron approves.  I'll be there soon and I'll be bearing gifts.  I have not looked, actually, but I would guess I have an "obscene" amount of tritanium and pyerite.  Should I bother to bring my frigates?  I'd like to, just they won't fit inside my Ex.

[WayAbvPar]

Grab the fittings off your frigates if they are rare- then repackage and sell them. Or reprocess them. You can always buy another frigate; if you fly Min ships, the agent in Neesher loves to hand out frigs as bonuses. I think I have 5 or 6 laying around my hangar.

[Viin]

Feel free to donate any minerals and spare frigates to the corp to be used in zergs on naughty pirates.

[Strazos]

I have a spare Merlin...somewhere.

I'd be interested in seeing if there was a setup I could use to be effective in PVP, like a close-in bomber or something with Blasters and Rockets, and a webber.

I dunno if the Merlin is "that" kind of ship, as I didn't use it for a great deal of time.

[Yegolev]

Grab the fittings off your frigates if they are rare

They are not, as far as I know.  I can't fit anything good.  Actually I probably have a couple items; one seemed to go for about 400k in Essence region but I was not able to unload it.  I intend to just dump things into the corp hangar with the assumption that if I see something in there that I want, I can ask for it.

then repackage and sell them. Or reprocess them. You can always buy another frigate;

But but but... I named them all. 

I can't fly racial shit other than Gall.  Are there at least shuttles available near Neesher?  A Gall used-car lot?  I have a sneaky suspicion that, unless there's a Gall station over there, I won't be getting missions without some work.

[Strazos]

Shuttles don't require any specific skill if I recall. This goes for shuttles for any race, I think.

[WayAbvPar]

Shuttles don't require any specific skill if I recall. This goes for shuttles for any race, I think.

Yep- you can use any race's shuttles, and every station has at least one flavor available. As for missions, crank up your Connections skill to 2 or 3 and you won't have any trouble getting agents.

[Yegolev]

Shuttles don't require any specific skill if I recall. This goes for shuttles for any race, I think.

Yep- you can use any race's shuttles,

I seem to fly Caldari shuttles most often.  I'll be bringing one with me in the Ex.

As for missions, crank up your Connections skill to 2 or 3 and you won't have any trouble getting agents.

It's on the docket, after the refining skill(s).  Currently I am wasting more mineral due to inefficiency than the 5% tax.

[Yegolev]

My first experience with group mining was very educational.  I have several things to think about, in no particular order.

1. Tanking.  I own and can fit an armor repair module.  Group mining apparently doesn't require me to have a gigantic cargo hold, so I will unfit the three expander and put something more useful into the three lows.  Armor plating, I think, but what else?  As for shield tanking, I need to figure out what to do about that.  I think a booster is out because I need my cap for the mining lasers.

2. Four Miner II, no gun.  I thought this would be simple but I later realized that I probably don't have the CPU to run four Miner II at once.  I am going to skill up a bit and see if that helps.  I am using about 288 of 300 teraflops.  Suggestions welcome.

3. Drones.  I have two Hob I and one Hornet I.  I didn't scratch the Angel pirates, but I might have had them attack the asteroid instead of the rat.  It was hard to concentrate with all those explosions.  In either case, I need more and/or better drones.  The drone skills are being worked on.

4.  Hauling.  I now have Gall Indy at level 1, which means I can fly an Iteron I.  I hope the Iteron in Neesher is a 'I'.  I want to get the rest of my stuff.  I think I will concentrate on the mining and refining right now, unless we need a secondary hauler.

[Hoax]

1.  I wouldn't worry about that too much really, typically on any group mining night we have 2-4 combat only pilots online and we're clearing all the belts while the miners work.  You dont need cargo expanders because you are mining into a can, I would consider warp core stabilizers to be a semi-usefull choice, so if there is an attempted gank you stand more of a chance of getting away.  Otherwise you can fit some kind of tank setup, or just powergrid/cpu mods to boost how many miners you can fit (low slots can give you 5%+ cpu or 10% powergrid bonus easily).

2.  I dont know if weapons upgrades works for miner II's, but if it does its a must take skill (-5% fitting reqs).

3.  Drones, for the Angels your best bet is to go with Thermal damage drones, although it really doesn't matter either way, again if we're talking purely group mining setup, you might as well equip mining drones, I know they dont do much but combat drones aren't really necessary.

4.  We can always use another Indy, moving your Iteron to Arzi might not be a bad idea so that it is available when it is time to do pickups.  I've got Amarr Indy I so I'll be moving a bestower down there this week.

Hopefully the actual miners can give you some better pointers.

[Strazos]

Ack, You're all in Arzi? Heh, not even I like to venture down there alone. I'm on edge when I am in Oguser (0.2) alone.

[Yegolev]

No, I am being schooled in Neesher.  I don't dare go to Arzi.  Or Perbhe.  The rats in Neesher seem to make me a priority, which could just be bad luck.  Spending 100k to repair my armor for such a short mining operation is why I will be fitting an armor repair unit, escort or no.

I am going to prioritize learning remote armor repair as well, so as to save on trips to the station for drone maintenance.

The Iteron belongs to (I think) WAP.  If I could afford an Iteron, I might not be flying an Exequror.  If it is the baby Iteron, I am hoping to borrow it to haul my shit from the Gallente core.

Re 1., we were relying on Yoru's drones for defense.

Re 2., I don't think weapon upgrades affect mining lasers.  If they did, I would be very surprised, and maybe disappointed.

Re 3., mining drones just absorb one or two missiles in place of my shield/armor.

[Yoru]

Ack, You're all in Arzi? Heh, not even I like to venture down there alone. I'm on edge when I am in Oguser (0.2) alone.

We've had a few group mining or ratting sessions down there, with the largest headcount so far being, I think, 6 (4 miners + 2 combat + 1 hydra'd alt playing hauler).

* Cargo expanders for group mining aren't a necessity until a full cycle exceeds your cargohold, which can happen at the higher end of the skill spectrum, but even then you probably only need one.

* CPU upgrade Is are cheap and give +7% CPU, I have one on my mining tub to fit all 3 miner IIs plus a mining laser upgrade I. Also, if you don't have Electronics at 3 or 4, then there's an easy answer here.

* I find Hobgoblin drones work best against the rats we see in Neesher. Thermal damage, when all other things are equal, has the highest amortized DPS over the life of the rat for most enemies.

 I don't have the drone cojones to take out Arzi (0.1) rats with drones, so I just let the combat folks do the work. Maybe I should bring some mining drones down there boost my yield even further...

* There's usually a demand for a hauler when we mine, but by the time we get to the point where a person constantly hauling is a net gain, we're also at the point that it needs to be one of the better hauler ships (Iteron III, Badger 2, whatever the giant Minmatar space truck is, Bestower).

* Using an armor rep to avoid huge repair costs is a definite plus, even if you just dock, fit the rep, undock, repair, dock and refit to whatever else you were using. There's little reason to pay the exorbitant station repair costs unless you're pressed for time.

[Hoax]

There are probably several armor repair mods sitting in Arzi hanger anyways so just make sure you have the skill to fit it.

[WayAbvPar]

Yeah, Iteron in Neesher is mine, and it is a I. I should be on more this week- I was busy drinking and lamenting the Superbowl on Sunday and then recovering on Monday to play 

I can be a little more help on mining expeditions now as well- I can play secondary guard with my Rifter, haul with the Iteron, or mine with a little frigate I slapped together for the purpose. I also have my alt in Neesher, so she can do some mining as well.

[Krakrok]

I put an Iteron I in the Neesher corp hanger in Misc 2. The other crap in Misc 2 goes on it. Anyone can use it.

[Yegolev]

I put an Iteron I in the Neesher corp hanger in Misc 2. The other crap in Misc 2 goes on it. Anyone can use it.

Awesome.  Watch for Yego And Kumar Go To Oursulaert.

[Alkiera]

I put an Iteron I in the Neesher corp hanger in Misc 2. The other crap in Misc 2 goes on it. Anyone can use it.

Awesome.  Watch for Yego And Kumar Go To Oursulaert.

That struck me as hilarious when I read it, tho my only knowledge of the movie comes from Haem's review... and it didn't sound like something I'd enjoy.  Good show on the joke.

Alkiera

[Yegolev]

Question on fitting:
Miner II x4 or Miner II x3 + remote armor repair

The Exe only has four high; it isn't a question of CPU now that I have Basic Co-Proc x2 to run four Miner II, but cap regen is an issue.  If anyone thinks Miner II x4 is a good idea, please suggest an easy path to add cap regen, since I am lazy.

[Hoax]

If you have medium slots:  Cap Regens, there are a bunch of them in the Arzi hanger.

If you have low slots:  There are several things you can do, for the quickest big cap boost you can sacrifice 10% shields for 20% cap regen.  I forget the name of the module at this time.  There are several low slot items that give minor boosts to just about everything.

[Yegolev]

Lows are full, two CPU+ and one armor repair.  Mids are empty.  Is all of the good stuff in Arzi?

[Yoru]

There may be some in Neesher, but they drop relatively often off the rats in Arzi. There should be a set of instas in the Neesher General hangar (in a can marked KorAzor Lowsec) that can get you to Arzi; just make sure to make copies so that the next guy can get them too.

Those instas are based off my funky Safety Point system; for most systems, you want to first warp to the bookmark called 'Safety', which will be an empty point somewhere in deep space, and then to whatever other location you want. Stations are generally large enough for this to not be an issue, but when you really need to insta to the gate, make sure you use the Safety point.

If you get harassed in lowsec and there's no station available, the Safety points make decent hiding spots - probably at least 15-20 minutes of security once scan probes are deployed, and you rarely see that above 0.0.

[Strazos]

Unless something has changed, I've looked in the cans before, and that one is empty. 

[Hoax]

Bookmarks take a long time to show up in the cans for some reason.