SW:G... Is anyone listening?

[Soukyan]

You didn't play AO then, or was that part of the "among"?

Come now, D. EQ was one of the worst for bugs as well. Once again, I'll point out that players became complacent to overlook and find a workaround. This doesn't mean that there were any less bugs or problems. Planetside somehow managed to turn out well, but SWG was as bug-riddled or worse than EQ. No, it's launch may not have been as bad as AO, but it has its own share of problems still.

[Venkman]

So one has to wonder why the developers haven't been busy fixxing the more swashbuckling aspects of the game rather than improving the sim-beru all this time?

Simple: the current players like it. That's one thing I think so many people often miss. Mark Jacobs said it best way back when the ranting began for DAoC. I don't remember the exact quote, and it's been lost four WT.o revs ago, but it essentially was "we're more concerned with our current customers than the ones who've left". That's not to say they didn't care about those who've quit. It's more a matter of priorities.

When Chefs needed changing before the combat system, that tells you the current players want SimBeru. That's why I said it's a solid game for some. I've got the feeling that the very same people who like SWG for what it is wouldn't care if it didn't carry the Star Wars name.

SWG didn't turn out to be for Star Wars fans. No surprise there.

The SOE team who made SWG is. And after seeing that combat, why the hell should we trust this will be good expansion?

I agreed until I played it. Unless it gets borked in ways even a drug-induced existentialist brainstorm could devise, it will at least have the merit of being fun to play. You won't get rich just fighting in space, but who gives a shit except those already enjoying SimBeru?

No, it's launch may not have been as bad as AO, but it has its own share of problems still.

Hehe, no joke Souk. Actually, at least one could log into AO on Launch Day. But given that on SWG Day Two I could play more of SWG than I could after a month of AO, the launch day fiasco is academic. I was just responding to Numtini's rating of SWG being among the worst. Seriously, NC Soft is paving the path of solid launches that Mythic started. A few more developers that give that sort of care will hopefully swing this genre away from complacency that the players will put up with anything.

And Planetside had the virtue of a) not being a super complex game; and, b) unsurprisingly not appealing to a few hundred thousand people pounding the hell out of the servers.

[Numtini]

You didn't play AO then, or was that part of the "among"?

AO was a buggier and less playable. However, it was more feature complete. Both got worse instead of better in the early days.

There are so many little niggling bugs still left from launch. I realize that seeing your necklace when it's not on isn't the hugest bug in the world, but the tailors have established it's a "camera angle" issue. And it worked at launch. Can't nitpicks like that get fixed after 11 months?

[geldonyetich]

I don't remember the exact quote, and it's been lost four WT.o revs ago, but it essentially was "we're more concerned with our current customers than the ones who've left". That's not to say they didn't care about those who've quit. It's more a matter of priorities.

Only problem I have with this argument is that when new players pick up the box, they're still expecting Star Wars.   When it turns out to be something else, they're hemmoraging those potential customers.  

Also, a lot of the remaining customers probably wouldn't mind if it were more Star Wars and less Sim-Beru.    I wonder just how many of those active subscriptions are players waiting for that to come around.

My approach would have been to provide the Sim-Beru players updates along the way, but at the same time focus a lot more effort on fixxing what's wrong with the game.    

It  remains to be seen if this is exactly what they've been doing with Jump To Lightspeed.   Lets say that Jump to Lightspeed is really successful.   Will they then turn around and change to planetary battles to resemble more a FPS?

[Venkman]

The problem is that most of the time has been spent on finishing what the original premise was, which included continual fixes and wholesale redesigns of that premise.

Player Cities were deemed a functionally required part of the game well before launch. As were vehicles, mounts, Chefs and Droid Engineers. That all came, eventually, but it's hard to focus on just fixing bugs for existing content when some of that existing content would only work within a system that includes features not yet released.

I totally agree making the game more Star Wars would benefit both existing and new players alike. But first the game needed to be done, and then it needed to be working. It's not done nor working perfectly, but they prioritized getting it even to that point.

The Space Expansion isn't just for new players. It may draw them in, but it'll just as benefit the existing ones. Like Soulbinders and Plane of Knowledge insta-port click-books in EQ or housing in DAoC.

[Riggswolfe]

I honestly don't think SW:G can be fixed. The design was more Sims than MMORPG as alot of people have said. Combat was boring. The worlds were mostly wilderness areas with few cities. Missions were outdoors kill mobs and destroy lairs.

It just never felt like Star Wars. The Corellian Corvette mission they put in recently might but honestly, combat is so borked I couldn't even work up the effort to try it.

[Numtini]

I think the boring combat was and is the big big problem. I love the crafting and I'm a crafter. But there's no reason that the two playstyles can't coexist.

I tried combat for the first week or so, on and off. It just was lacking. It didn't make sense (HAM), it penalized groups using different weapons (HAM), and it was very uninvolved, usually it meant spamming your most popular move again and again. Even if that move was something that should be a "one time" in the fight thing, like dropping into a firing position.

They are supposed to revise combat, but I'm not sure it will be enough. They really need to totally revise the whole thing, put all the damage on health, try to balance it so taking more endurance or mind is valuable for MAKING special attacks, not absorbing damage. And I hate to say this for those who like soloing, but make combat require more synergy between players (ie, forced grouping) rather than just massive force.

[eldaec]

it penalized groups using different weapons (HAM)

I never for the life of me figured out why it was designed so 100% of the attacks (excluding auto-attack) for each type of weapon would target the same pool (H - Pistol, A - Carbine, M - Rifle). Seemed utterly bizarre to me.

Making one of them unhealable also seemed so unbelievably boneheadedly insane that the whole time I had in SWG I had to believe that this was just due to some temporarily delayed feature or something. Nothing else made any sense whatsoever.

[schild]

Oh comeon, why mention that when smugglers could keep the enemy from attacking while ticking him for 300 while he couldn't attack. I mean krayt weapons weren't overpowerful in pvp. Oh wait, then they quite literally broke every single Smuggler combat skill (and not one by one I might add - but all in the same patch, the one that made feign death more useful, oh the irony).

And who can forget composite helmets both simoultaneously protecting you from head/endurance injury while COMPLETELY sucking away endurance.

Or even better the completely lack of /move up for decorating your house.

Or even a poison/flame tick that keeps you dead until you're completely in the black.

Or EVEN BETTER when everyone stopped talking about SWG because it's not going to be completely revised, the game (at it's core) is ass, and all that will come of it is a possible sequel that they will include what they learned from their mistakes. If that doesn't happen NCSoft better be developing 2 destroy.

[eldaec]

The Space Expansion isn't just for new players. It may draw them in, but it'll just as benefit the existing ones.

I'm not so sure.

Current players like to manage harvesters (solo), craft (solo), and exploit uber solo combat templates.

I have a hard time seeing what the expansion offers anyone who enjoys the current game (barring those who coincidentally also happen to like the entire other genre that JTL is being promised for).

While I like the cut of JTL's gib as it is described today; I find it hard to understand how the current playerbase would adjust to it. Of course, they could always introduce space harvesters, require regular downtime around shipwrights, and make pilots a new type of templateer; but then it wouldn't be what is currently being hawked.

[Venkman]

I have a hard time seeing what the expansion offers anyone who enjoys the current game

New customers :)

Seriously though, Numtini and I are good examples of the target market for JTL (even though I'm not playing it atm). We accept that combat sucks but found enough of the game to enjoy for an appreciable amount of time. So what if we had that enjoyment and combat didn't suck?

Change is hard. I'm sure there are some closet freaks bitching about the twitch-combat in space, wishing they could have Eve and go mine asteroids for some new and interesting combination of randomly-selected word fragments with 1000 OQ. But those people don't make million-unit games. The rest of the folks accept the game for what it is and will enjoy it if/when/hopefully it gets better.

JTL doesn't solve the issues that keep some people away. Rather, it creates a pocket game for them, somewhat separated from the folks who do like what's there. Maybe. It all depends on how much they integrate it before November (a more realistic launch).

I hope they don't integrate it too much. The more they do, the less their spike of subscriptions come January (when the 15/30 days ends).

[Numtini]

Actually I have less than zero interest in JTL :-) I'm sure SOE will cook up some way to force everyone to buy it though. Free personal ship and changing the timers on starships to 4 hours or something. But  I'm solidly in the Sim Baru camp. My main character has never fired a gun.

[Aslan]

I, also, have no hope for JTL.  They took one of the best licenses around and screwed it like a goat at an Irish barn dance.  As the old saying goes, Fool me once...  
I will wait til Schlid and some other people who are braver (if that is the right word) than I try it out before I even consider giving more money to SOE for this fecal abortion that is SWG.  Just the thought of giving ANY cash to them is abhorrent to me.  This game is the Daikatana of MMO's.  Unless JTL is precisely like X-wing vs Tie Fighter and I NEVER have to land on those ass-ugly planets longer than five minutes, I might give it a shot.  But with CoV coming out, and WoW, to go along with my CoH addiction, probably not.

[schild]

You're going to be waiting a long time unless Raph or Dundee or some other poor soul has the balls to give the f13.net staff a couple beta/live gamecards to play for free. I'll be screwed by a porcupine before I pay to play that virtual chat room again.

In other news, the grass is green, gasoline is flammable, and cats have asses.

[Aslan]

Oh, come on, schlidy, what happened to the drill?? :P

[schild]

Who the fuck is Schlidy?

EDIT: And for a more serious response, I don't think 'the drill' applies to games proven - in the field - to be shit.

Sigh, I hit submit too early. Anyway, they can slap whatever corny name they want after the title Star Wars, it isn't going to get me more excited. Hmmm, looks as though that applies to the movies as well.

[HaemishM]

What will your role be in the unfolding drama?

The role of the smart motherfucker not playing an excel spreadsheet with Star Wars skins.

[Morfiend]

If they give free FS slots with the space expansion, then I'll happily sign up. Untill then, no thanks.

[Aslan]

If Raph himself comes to my house with flowers and a handwritten apology for SWG in one hand, and my free copy of JTL in the other, I MIGHT sign up then, depending on how abject the apology is.

[Soukyan]

What will your role be in the unfolding drama?

The role of the smart motherfucker not playing an excel spreadsheet with Star Wars skins.

Ahahahahahaha! Haemish - 2894, MMOG Devs - 0

[schild]

If Raph himself comes to my house with flowers and a handwritten apology for SWG in one hand, and my free copy of JTL in the other, and two contortionists (HOT contortionists), I MIGHT sign up then, depending on how abject the apology is.

That's what you meant to say right? RIGHT?

[Riggswolfe]

I never for the life of me figured out why it was designed so 100% of the attacks (excluding auto-attack) for each type of weapon would target the same pool (H - Pistol, A - Carbine, M - Rifle). Seemed utterly bizarre to me.

Making one of them unhealable also seemed so unbelievably boneheadedly insane that the whole time I had in SWG I had to believe that this was just due to some temporarily delayed feature or something. Nothing else made any sense whatsoever.

I never figured out alot of things. I will say that the reason mind was unhealable was because medics use mind and it led to an exploit where they could heal themselves and rack up XPs alot faster.

HAM has to go and combat has to be totally revamped (armor not penalizing you) for me to ever even give a passing thought to playing SWG again.

[Aslan]

If Raph himself comes to my house with flowers and a handwritten apology for SWG in one hand, and my free copy of JTL in the other, and two contortionists (HOT contortionists), I MIGHT sign up then, depending on how abject the apology is.

That's what you meant to say right? RIGHT?

Ooo very close.  Actually, I meant to say to hot, NAKED, WILLING contortionists...and a beer.  Then I might.

[schild]

...and Raph can't watch.

Though, to be more serious, I was SO turned off by the lack of content in that game that it has scarred me. Literally. Now I absolutely demand a decent amount of content in games. I mean I made it through The Realm, Diablo 1&2 (about 30 times a piece - the content is gone after the first ride through...at least for me), and many other games that were just plain devoid of immersive fluff. But SWG, my god, it was SO empty that flare that appeared as content (but wasn't - like one of those gungan shrines) became exciting. SOE really fucked up on this one and I'm surprised they've managed to keep as many users as they have. I'm sure they've learned a number of lessons - one of which is to not piss on a license that normally prints money.

[Sky]

HAM has to go and combat has to be totally revamped (armor not penalizing you) for me to ever even give a passing thought to playing SWG again.

Bah. The /first/ time I quit (I did return for a stint with WSi) was directly due to the HAM system. Well, a lot of reasons, but that was the straw, so to speak.

When the dev in charge of the rifleman profession simply couldn't understand how the class worked, I was galled. He didn't understand the importance of range relativity amongst the ranged weapons, which was pretty bad. But the worst was how he kept parroting "But you do unhealable mind pool damage!" without once addressing the fact that it COST mind pool to do mind pool damage with a rifleman. So we damage /ourselves/ in an unhealable way, and the only time one needs to worry about enemies healing in SWG is in pvp. NPCs generally don't heal in a significant way that makes doing unhealable damage any better than dealing healable damage. So where's the benefit?

And then there's eyeshot, which uses H or A, I forget, both healable pools, to deal mind damage. Usually to a rifleman in pvp who has little mind left from using specials.

Can I trust a dev team that can't understand these very basic concepts to deliver X-Wing vs TIE? Doubtful imo. Instead of fixing the core game, they give us a new mini-game. No.

[Venkman]

I will say that the reason mind was unhealable was because medics use mind and it led to an exploit where they could heal themselves and rack up XPs alot faster.

That seems incomplete. Instead of fixing the fucking exploit they just can the ability to heal mind altogether?

Not that I'm surprised of course. This is just one of the very many comparisons to the very same shit that goes on in EQ, thus proving that culture does in fact transcend dev teams. No matter how different and far apart teams may be, they eventually converge through a single middle manager somewhere.

[HaemishM]

one of which is to not piss on a license that normally prints money.

Why would SOE learn this? Lucas still hasn't, and it's been what 20 years since Return of the Jedi?

[Aslan]

"Sand is rough, not like you."  That line, uttered by he who would become the greatest of cinematic villains, was, in fact, the tinkling sound of ole Georgie boy having let fly in all our beatific upturned faces.

[HaemishM]

"Sand is rough, not like you."  That line, uttered by he who would become the greatest of cinematic villains, was, in fact, the tinkling sound of ole Georgie boy having let fly in all our beatific upturned faces.

I don't remember that line. Was it in Attack of the Clones? I must have blocked it.

[Aslan]

"Sand is rough, not like you."  That line, uttered by he who would become the greatest of cinematic villains, was, in fact, the tinkling sound of ole Georgie boy having let fly in all our beatific upturned faces.

I don't remember that line. Was it in Attack of the Clones? I must have blocked it.

Yes, and I probably misquoted it, because, frankly, I cringed so fucking hard the first time I heard it, I cracked teeth.  Since then, everytime that scene comes on, I pause the movie briefly to appreciate Natalie's outfit, then skip ahead to the next chapter.

[Paelos]

Yes that quote was dead on proof that George Lucas, in fact, has never had a real relationship in his life.

If that is what passes for romanctic in his world, I pity his lady friends, should he ever have any.

[Venkman]

I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft...and smooth...

And I now must go scrub my brain with chains.

[Aslan]

haha Thank you Darn, once again taking one for the team.  I thought about looking for the quote myself, but it just hurt too much.

[Sky]

And one more film to go! Whee!

I'd rather watch Blackula 2: Electric Boogaloo, starring Martin Lawrence.

[Aslan]

At least the third one is going to have James Earl Jones and a lot of Jedi deaths, but now that I think about it, it is going to be hard to swallow the transition between Hayden's whiny girl voice and JEJ's deep, throbbing one.  Oh, well, as long as they give the Bad Motherfucker a death to remember.