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Author Topic: DDO - Love or Hate  (Read 23227 times)
Sairon
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Reply #35 on: February 04, 2006, 09:14:46 AM

Yes it might add a slight tactical touch to the game, but at the cost of an unacceptable ammount of downtime and tedious travelling.
Samwise
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Reply #36 on: February 04, 2006, 10:13:13 AM

There's no mana pots? It stinks that there's 0 regen and that my mana doesn't last 1 single player dungeon. To regen it I have to run to a tavern which is a couple of minutes runing every freaking time?

The DDO equivalent of a "mana pot" is a wand or scroll, since those allow spellcasters to cast spells without using their own mana.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Alkiera
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Reply #37 on: February 06, 2006, 07:37:37 AM

alright so I'm playing this stuff now, a couple of questions.

There's no mana pots? It stinks that there's 0 regen and that my mana doesn't last 1 single player dungeon. To regen it I have to run to a tavern which is a couple of minutes runing every freaking time? The fact that when I once reach the tavern I have to sit and watch that fucking mana bar fill up slowly ( yes I know there's consumables which works in taverns ). So far I'm fairly unimpressed by everything.

There apparently are items to restore mana, they're just ungodly expensive.

What class did you play?  Low level magic users don't tend to fair well solo.  It's an issue with d20, mages start out wimps, and end up gods, while other classes start out well, but end up not being so great.  If you are a cleric, as I was, you end up melee'ing a LOT.  Then again, clerics have the same melee power as rogues, monks and other light fighters.  Save mana for healing yourself between fights.

Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Kenrick
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Reply #38 on: February 07, 2006, 09:46:50 AM

Quote
DDO - Love or Hate

Hate.

I really wanted to like this game because my best friend is a dungeon artist for it, but I just couldn't stand it one bit.  I'm sure there will be a good demographic for DDO, but I am just not it.  My complaints are similar to those that have been voiced already in this thread (esp. Margalis').
Samwise
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Reply #39 on: February 07, 2006, 10:23:04 AM

I feel sorry for your friend, as you will no doubt be razzing him until the end of time then.  (I know I would.)

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
shiznitz
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Reply #40 on: February 07, 2006, 11:22:34 AM

Quote
DDO - Love or Hate

Hate.

I really wanted to like this game because my best friend is a dungeon artist for it, but I just couldn't stand it one bit.  I'm sure there will be a good demographic for DDO, but I am just not it.  My complaints are similar to those that have been voiced already in this thread (esp. Margalis').

Remind him of the primary colors.

I have never played WoW.
Margalis
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Reply #41 on: February 07, 2006, 12:23:26 PM

Grey, gray and brown.

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HaemishM
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Reply #42 on: February 07, 2006, 12:46:47 PM

Burnt sienna isn't a color, it's a philosophy.

Yegolev
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Reply #43 on: February 07, 2006, 01:15:45 PM

alright so I'm playing this stuff now, a couple of questions.

There's no mana pots? It stinks that there's 0 regen and that my mana doesn't last 1 single player dungeon. To regen it I have to run to a tavern which is a couple of minutes runing every freaking time? The fact that when I once reach the tavern I have to sit and watch that fucking mana bar fill up slowly ( yes I know there's consumables which works in taverns ). So far I'm fairly unimpressed by everything.

I only just read this.  There is mana in D&D now?  Must be a 3rd Ed. thing?  I'll wait for a response before saying anything else.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #44 on: February 07, 2006, 01:26:24 PM

There is mana in D&D now?  Must be a 3rd Ed. thing?  I'll wait for a response before saying anything else.

It's a Turbine thing not a D&D thing, the D&D method wasn't fun, so you go back to an Inn and stand around waiting for mana to regenerate, it's more fun that way because, um, I dunno, they think it is.

Red, Blue and Yellow are due in an expansion I think.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 01:29:05 PM by Arthur_Parker »
Samwise
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Reply #45 on: February 07, 2006, 01:32:22 PM

It's a Turbine thing not a D&D thing, the D&D method wasn't fun, so you go back to an Inn and stand around waiting for mana to regenerate, it's more fun that way because, um, I dunno, they think it is.

Mana regeneration used to be really speedy, so that it took about as long for your mana to regenerate as unloading your unwanted loot on the bartender.  Then for some reason it got nerfed way the fuck down so you have to go AFK for five minutes.  I don't like it at all.   cry

In general, I think the gameplay has gone steadily downhill since alpha, despite the numerous small improvements and bug fixes.  The only really good gameplay change they've made since I started was the big ranged combat change (not getting snared every time you fired a shot); everything else has just caused DDO to slide closer to every other shitty MMOG in existence.  Their latest patch nerfed stealth (AGAIN) and dropped XP for some of the quests (meaning you have to redo them that many more times).

Suffice to say that I've decided not to preorder.   undecided  A damn shame because I actually liked lots of the stuff that everyone else hated (like the group-oriented gameplay and the rain in the harbor).

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Yegolev
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Reply #46 on: February 07, 2006, 01:37:48 PM

There is mana in D&D now?  Must be a 3rd Ed. thing?  I'll wait for a response before saying anything else.

It's a Turbine thing not a D&D thing, the D&D method wasn't fun, so you go back to an Inn and stand around waiting for mana to regenerate, it's more fun that way because, um, I dunno, they think it is.


OK.  I was going to shit all over this anyway, but I wanted to direct the hate properly.  This is one of the stupidest fucking ideas since someone designing AutoAssault thought a "cleric car" was a great idea.  Someone open a gas line in the Turbine offices.

something crazy

I don't get it, why is mana in a D&D game?  Aren't you really playing Diablo?  The point of the magic user is to be a ball-and-chain around the whole party's neck until they need to read some ancient text or cockpunch the rust monster or WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT crack open a can of whoopass.  With mana, it's not about unleashing the fireball when you really and truly need it, it's PEWPEWPEWLASERS.  Might as well turn thieves into assassins now and call it EQ3.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Samwise
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Reply #47 on: February 07, 2006, 02:35:32 PM

All I can say about the mana thing is that you have to play it before you judge.  I had the exact same opinion as you until I actually tried it.  (The rules they used were an optional system from Unearthed Arcana or some such sourcebook, not an original Turbine invention, btw.)  It's not a straight mana system a la Diablo, it's more of a hybrid between a mana point system and D&D spell preparation.

The reason they did it, as far as I can divine, is that DDO quests have many more encounters than D&D quests (probably to compensate for the fact that real-time combat goes MUCH faster than turn-based PnP combat), so to compensate they give players more hit points and more spells per day.  Managing all of those spells per day as individual slots would be a royal pain, so instead of giving you 15 slots to fill individually they give you 3 slots for "prepared" spells and then let you use one mana pool to cast spells from that list.

It works very well, aside from a few annoying details like unnecessarily long regen times in taverns and the ability of clerics to use turning attempts to charge others' mana pools (which seems kinda imbalanced to me, as it seems like you end up with about 3x the mana if you use that skill right).

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Alkiera
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The best part of SWG was the easy account cancellation process.


Reply #48 on: February 07, 2006, 02:39:49 PM

There is mana in D&D now?  Must be a 3rd Ed. thing?  I'll wait for a response before saying anything else.

It's a Turbine thing not a D&D thing, the D&D method wasn't fun, so you go back to an Inn and stand around waiting for mana to regenerate, it's more fun that way because, um, I dunno, they think it is.


OK.  I was going to shit all over this anyway, but I wanted to direct the hate properly.  This is one of the stupidest fucking ideas since someone designing AutoAssault thought a "cleric car" was a great idea.  Someone open a gas line in the Turbine offices.

something crazy

I don't get it, why is mana in a D&D game?  Aren't you really playing Diablo?  The point of the magic user is to be a ball-and-chain around the whole party's neck until they need to read some ancient text or cockpunch the rust monster or WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT crack open a can of whoopass.  With mana, it's not about unleashing the fireball when you really and truly need it, it's PEWPEWPEWLASERS.  Might as well turn thieves into assassins now and call it EQ3.

It's mana from the Unearthed Arcana book, the same system has been available as a play option since 2nd edition, at least.  I have an RTF file of the book with the play option in it somewhere... Mana only regenerates when you sleep, just like normal D&D.  The system works almost exactly like Psionics.... mana gains you some flexibility in what is not really a flexible class by the core rules.  Sorcerers advantage is now just having more mana, while wizards can have more(a LOT more) spells.

There was a huge post on Turbine's site on why they did what they did.  It had to do primarily with the fact that D&D's classes are built around 3-4 encounters per day, which is fine at the pace of PnP, given how much play slows down for combat.  It's NOT okay in a realtime game, where combat generally takes less time than getting everyone to the dungeon entrance.  So the average dungeon is in units of ~10 encounters, and there are 'rest shrines' in them where you can rest to regain 'mana', and some HP if you have a character with the Heal skill in the party.

Really, it's a pretty decent transalation of d20 to a realtime game.  Better than NWN, IMO.

Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Samwise
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Reply #49 on: February 07, 2006, 04:26:34 PM

Sorcerers advantage is now just having more mana, while wizards can have more(a LOT more) spells.

Not true; wizards still have to pick "prepared" spells from their spellbooks, with the number of slots increasing per level.  Classes that don't need to prepare spells in standard DnD (sorcs, bards) treat all spells as "prepared" all the time, but have very few spells.

Classes that do prepare spells (wiz, cleric) get to swap out their "prepared" spells at rest locations (rest shrines in dungeons, taverns in town).  So it's actually a very decent translation of the PnP dynamic while removing a lot of tedious "ten copies of Magic Missile, five copies of Burning Hands" busy work.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 04:28:05 PM by Samwise »

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Margalis
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Reply #50 on: February 07, 2006, 06:27:43 PM

Their solution seemed pretty reasonable to me - I do think choosing X of Y and Z of B would have gotten tedious.

Mana does not in any way mean wizards become fireball cannons. It just depends on how much mana you have, how it refills, etc. If you give someone enough mana for 3 spells clearly they won't be running around firing like a machine gun.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Yegolev
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Reply #51 on: February 09, 2006, 10:51:05 AM

All I can say about the mana thing is that you have to play it before you judge.

Fair enough, and good summary.  Naturally I missed the tiny window to get some playtime.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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