Do levels suck?

[Jimbo]

I've never understood why wanting to be the best at something (i.e. - leet) is a *bad* thing.

Why be mediocre?  Why settle for second best?

Nuthing wrong with that, but take the ol' saying from NFL, "on any given Sunday."  It means that no matter how badass your team is, there is allways a chance that the underdog is going to kick you in the nuts and win.  Hell, that used to be the American way of cheering for the outgunned, beatdown, and outclassed team/individual and seeing them actually win.  Why is Rocky so cool?  Because he is Joe Six Pack that beat the fuck out of the champ.  Why is it allways a good game when certain teams play (Green Bay vs Chicago)?  Because of the history and it doesn't matter what your record is going in to it.  Both teams know that it comes down to every second every play and that it can go either way.

So, I don't mind being the best...but I still want the ability to knock the best out every once in a while.  That is probably why I play more FPS than MMOGS now.

[Strazos]

I've never understood why wanting to be the best at something (i.e. - leet) is a *bad* thing.

Why be mediocre?  Why settle for second best?

There's a difference being trying to be a good and competant player, and grinding for negligible power increases, which has become the norm in MMOs.

Take WoW's priests for instance. Going up the Shadow tree is a lot of fun, but many players see this as unacceptable because you don't have the +10% to heals and shit.

Ten Percent. I got my priest to level 40 before quitting. Think about it - that 10% equates to less than 100 extra hp healed on most spells. But that's "unacceptable" to your leet kiddy players, which I think is ridiculous.

[Glazius]

I HATED[/i] pre-CURB SWG (and I have yet to ever play it post CURB or NGE, not worthy of my time).  The game sucked.  Moisture farming, while accurate, is not fun.  The combat system was retarded, unbalanced, and silly.  Having 3 "damage bars" that each could kill you, but only having healers for 2 damage bars is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.  How the fuck did Raph think that THAT wasn't going to be unbalanced?

You could choose to be a moisture farmer if you wanted.  That was the beauty of it.  You didnt find it fun.  Others did.  Not everyone wants combat.  Others want a more sedate lifestyle.

No, I don't think the act of moisture farming was really fun for anybody.

Or, rather, the people it was actually fun for could have been as easily amused by a piece of tinfoil. Push button, watch bar fill up, repeat 2500 times to build a machine that does it for you. And then you have to run all around creation every 2 weeks just to keep them all going at the same pace. Uh, no.

What _was_ fun about moisture farming, to the people who stuck with it, was the 'social crafter' aspect of it, of creating a product that other people could use and finding people who could use it. Like a tiny MMOG version of Cheers, you had your regulars and your oddball guests every now and again and you maintained a social space.

Puzzle Pirates and ATiTD are good examples of games with crafting processes that could actually be fun, at least for some people. Puzzle Pirates especially does a good job of dovetailing the craft process with the 'social crafter' aspect of coordinating production.

--GF

[Alkiera]

I've never understood why wanting to be the best at something (i.e. - leet) is a *bad* thing.

Why be mediocre?  Why settle for second best?

The point is that when you go fight with your character with a 90% in "sword" against someone with 91% that 1% is POINTLESS. And even if you had 40% (starting newbie) against one at 99% (veteran), you still would have your chance in the fight.

While it would require a lot of time to reach those values.

EDIT- Explaining: the power differential between a newbie who just joined the game and a veteran, would probably be close to the power differential that you have in WoW between a freshly dinged 60 and one with very good loot. Now the point is that in the first example, the WHOLE game is comprised in that threshold. Which would make all the content accessible and would bring the players together and not apart.

Plus, it would also be absolutely suitable for a PvP game. Newbie and veterans would always play together. You would ALWAYS be able to join your friends without the requirement to "catch up". You would be less skilled but you would still be effective and the margin would be negligible.

Absolutely

Now the point is: how you can carry over a meaningful character progression since the power curve wouldn't be enough to feel satisfactory? Which brings to the idea to move the progession AWAY from the exponential power gain and toward other aspects of the game, leaving out the "power differential" iself in order to not break the basic mechanics of the game.

I've been trying to say this for at least a year or so now.  The best way to avoid the 'progressquest' nature of most of these games is to remove 'character advancement' as not only the primary, but the ONLY thing to do.  I'm not saying go completely 'virtual world' where you start maxed... leave room for advancement, but have advancement be (a) mostly a diversity thing, tho allow for some power increase, (b) allow for other things to do, and other reasons for doing things...  Someone mentioned AI controlled wars earlier; toss in some politics, some PC-controlled factions maybe... And make manipulating that 'social' environment skill/character related, so characters can spend time developing those skills, rather than pure combat ones.  Add in other 'worldy' things to do, like crafting, and running a shop, and make those be things your character can get better at... and make them interesting, so characters want to develop those skills.

Right now, characters advance in one direction... start at point A1, end at point A60.  Start at point B1, end at B60.  The problem with most is that you choose the letter at character creation, and are stuck with it.  It'd be nice if it were more interesting, so you could choose to advance(so to speak) in many directions, where most of them were not additive to combat prowess.

Alkiera

[Nyght]

I've been trying to say this for at least a year or so now.  The best way to avoid the 'progressquest' nature of most of these games is to remove 'character advancement' as not only the primary, but the ONLY thing to do.  I'm not saying go completely 'virtual world' where you start maxed... leave room for advancement, but have advancement be (a) mostly a diversity thing, tho allow for some power increase, (b) allow for other things to do, and other reasons for doing things...  Someone mentioned AI controlled wars earlier; toss in some politics, some PC-controlled factions maybe... And make manipulating that 'social' environment skill/character related, so characters can spend time developing those skills, rather than pure combat ones.  Add in other 'worldy' things to do, like crafting, and running a shop, and make those be things your character can get better at... and make them interesting, so characters want to develop those skills.

Welcome to A Tale in the Desert. Current census hovering around 1000 I believe.

[Alkiera]

I've been trying to say this for at least a year or so now.  The best way to avoid the 'progressquest' nature of most of these games is to remove 'character advancement' as not only the primary, but the ONLY thing to do.  I'm not saying go completely 'virtual world' where you start maxed... leave room for advancement, but have advancement be (a) mostly a diversity thing, tho allow for some power increase, (b) allow for other things to do, and other reasons for doing things...  Someone mentioned AI controlled wars earlier; toss in some politics, some PC-controlled factions maybe... And make manipulating that 'social' environment skill/character related, so characters can spend time developing those skills, rather than pure combat ones.  Add in other 'worldy' things to do, like crafting, and running a shop, and make those be things your character can get better at... and make them interesting, so characters want to develop those skills.

Welcome to A Tale in the Desert. Current census hovering around 1000 I believe.

Almost entirely due to lack of a combat game, I would guess.  That, and relatively low production values.  And no advertising to speak of.  Sure, we know about it, but we're hanging out on an MMO discussion forum.  Sometime, stop someone in EB and ask if they have heard of ATitD.  Odd are, no. 

And ATitD isn't doing too bad for Teppy, at least.  He's only got so many expenses, being a dev team of one.  If 1k people are paying $10/month to play, that's $120k a year... allowing for bandwith and hardware expenses, that's still a living.  Enough for 2 people to make a living, and still pay bandwidth fees.  You're not making money hats, but you're not starving either... and you're making games for a living, without working for a soul-sucking publisher like EA or Vivendi.

Alkiera

[waylander]

I responded (Lord Hades) on part I of the article, but what I said pretty much applies to both parts. I'm looking at it from a guildmaster's point of view, and games since DAOC have been divisive within guilds due to level and grouping restrictions.

[SnakeCharmer]

I've never understood why wanting to be the best at something (i.e. - leet) is a *bad* thing.

Why be mediocre?  Why settle for second best?

Nuthing wrong with that, but take the ol' saying from NFL, "on any given Sunday."  It means that no matter how badass your team is, there is allways a chance that the underdog is going to kick you in the nuts and win.  Hell, that used to be the American way of cheering for the outgunned, beatdown, and outclassed team/individual and seeing them actually win.  Why is Rocky so cool?  Because he is Joe Six Pack that beat the fuck out of the champ.  Why is it allways a good game when certain teams play (Green Bay vs Chicago)?  Because of the history and it doesn't matter what your record is going in to it.  Both teams know that it comes down to every second every play and that it can go either way.

So, I don't mind being the best...but I still want the ability to knock the best out every once in a while.  That is probably why I play more FPS than MMOGS now.

You cant compare team sports competition to an MMO.

When the underdog rises up to beat the heavily favored team, its because the heroic effort of one individual, usually the quarterback, or someone on defense going completely apeshit and recovering fumbles or interceptions or making 20 tackles in the game.  

You're talking about a human variable - which is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate in numbers which is all combat in an MMO really is: numbers.  Whether or not I hit you in an MMO depends upon my accuracy being greater than, equal to, or less than your defense.  

I also happen to think that parity in the NFL and revenue sharing in baseball is the devil's own.  But thats another argument for another time.

[Akkori]

I HATED[/i] pre-CURB SWG (and I have yet to ever play it post CURB or NGE, not worthy of my time).  The game sucked.  Moisture farming, while accurate, is not fun.  The combat system was retarded, unbalanced, and silly.  Having 3 "damage bars" that each could kill you, but only having healers for 2 damage bars is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.  How the fuck did Raph think that THAT wasn't going to be unbalanced?

You could choose to be a moisture farmer if you wanted.  That was the beauty of it.  You didnt find it fun.  Others did.  Not everyone wants combat.  Others want a more sedate lifestyle.

No, I don't think the act of moisture farming was really fun for anybody.

Or, rather, the people it was actually fun for could have been as easily amused by a piece of tinfoil. Push button, watch bar fill up, repeat 2500 times to build a machine that does it for you. And then you have to run all around creation every 2 weeks just to keep them all going at the same pace. Uh, no.

What _was_ fun about moisture farming, to the people who stuck with it, was the 'social crafter' aspect of it, of creating a product that other people could use and finding people who could use it. Like a tiny MMOG version of Cheers, you had your regulars and your oddball guests every now and again and you maintained a social space.

Puzzle Pirates and ATiTD are good examples of games with crafting processes that could actually be fun, at least for some people. Puzzle Pirates especially does a good job of dovetailing the craft process with the 'social crafter' aspect of coordinating production.

--GF

I agree, ATitD has a better crafting system... but the graphics are lacking. And dont forget, you do the same exac thing as a fighter... push buttons, watch red bar empty, loot, rinse and repeat. Boring! To each his own though.

[SnakeCharmer]

I HATED[/i] pre-CURB SWG (and I have yet to ever play it post CURB or NGE, not worthy of my time).  The game sucked.  Moisture farming, while accurate, is not fun.  The combat system was retarded, unbalanced, and silly.  Having 3 "damage bars" that each could kill you, but only having healers for 2 damage bars is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.  How the fuck did Raph think that THAT wasn't going to be unbalanced?

You could choose to be a moisture farmer if you wanted.  That was the beauty of it.  You didnt find it fun.  Others did.  Not everyone wants combat.  Others want a more sedate lifestyle.

No, I don't think the act of moisture farming was really fun for anybody.

Or, rather, the people it was actually fun for could have been as easily amused by a piece of tinfoil. Push button, watch bar fill up, repeat 2500 times to build a machine that does it for you. And then you have to run all around creation every 2 weeks just to keep them all going at the same pace. Uh, no.

What _was_ fun about moisture farming, to the people who stuck with it, was the 'social crafter' aspect of it, of creating a product that other people could use and finding people who could use it. Like a tiny MMOG version of Cheers, you had your regulars and your oddball guests every now and again and you maintained a social space.

Puzzle Pirates and ATiTD are good examples of games with crafting processes that could actually be fun, at least for some people. Puzzle Pirates especially does a good job of dovetailing the craft process with the 'social crafter' aspect of coordinating production.

--GF

So you're making blanket statements that people who ran mining businesses (whether it be dropping a harvester on an ore spawn, or talus water spawn) didnt enjoy what they did?  Some people took great pride in having the best resources for sale.  For going out, surveying the land for the best, highest concentration spawn.  They could be the most antisocial person in the game, and still be great at what they did or enjoy it.  Technically, even as a crafter or merchant, you dont have to interact with ANYONE if you dont want to, as you're selling your wares thru a vendor, making the cash transaction thru a vendor, etc.

[Xilren's Twin]

You cant compare team sports competition to an MMO.

You're talking about a human variable - which is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate in numbers which is all combat in an MMO really is: numbers.  Whether or not I hit you in an MMO depends upon my accuracy being greater than, equal to, or less than your defense.  

Of course it's possible; it all depends on how much player skill, like twitch elements or tactical decision making, you include, and how much randomness as well.  Take MtG; it has both player skill in how you play what you've been dealt, and randomnes in card drawing just like any other card game.  DDO has player skill in positioning and clicking to attack, and randomness in the attack itself being a D20 role in standard D&D fashion.

Too much player skill = FPS; too much randomness = generally not much fun, so most systems try to blend the two to be a decent mix of both and so the underdog CAN win either through superior play that match/game, or just getting lucky on a few die rolls.  Auto wins and auto losses generally suck.

Xilren

[SnakeCharmer]

You cant compare team sports competition to an MMO.

You're talking about a human variable - which is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate in numbers which is all combat in an MMO really is: numbers.  Whether or not I hit you in an MMO depends upon my accuracy being greater than, equal to, or less than your defense.  

Of course it's possible; it all depends on how much player skill, like twitch elements or tactical decision making, you include, and how much randomness as well.  Take MtG; it has both player skill in how you play what you've been dealt, and randomnes in card drawing just like any other card game.  DDO has player skill in positioning and clicking to attack, and randomness in the attack itself being a D20 role in standard D&D fashion.

Too much player skill = FPS; too much randomness = generally not much fun, so most systems try to blend the two to be a decent mix of both and so the underdog CAN win either through superior play that match/game, or just getting lucky on a few die rolls.  Auto wins and auto losses generally suck.

Xilren

The human variable that I am talking about is an athlete getting in the "zone".  I'm guessing you have never played sports, or are much of a sports fan to begin with.  Combat, like sports, is both a physical test, as well as mental.  Its about a quarterback seeing the defense move before they actually DO.  Its about putting the football in the ONLY spot that ONLY the receive can catch it.  Its about the pitcher catching lightning in a bottle and painting the corners of the plate.  Or a hitter seeing the seams of the ball just as it leaves the pitchers hands. 

The only thing I could equate it to in the MMO world would be for EVERY player to have equal opportunity to get "inspired" or, be in the zone, so to speak.  Being "inspired" raises the attibutes of that person to near the level of their opponent.

[SnakeCharmer]

I've never understood why wanting to be the best at something (i.e. - leet) is a *bad* thing.

Why be mediocre?  Why settle for second best?

There's a difference being trying to be a good and competant player, and grinding for negligible power increases, which has become the norm in MMOs.

Take WoW's priests for instance. Going up the Shadow tree is a lot of fun, but many players see this as unacceptable because you don't have the +10% to heals and shit.

Ten Percent. I got my priest to level 40 before quitting. Think about it - that 10% equates to less than 100 extra hp healed on most spells. But that's "unacceptable" to your leet kiddy players, which I think is ridiculous.

Look at it this way....

The more you do something, the better at it you will be - unless of course, you have a natural talent for it. 

Look at Tiger Woods for example. 

Probably the best athlete that has EVER played golf.  If he were to play any other sport, he would probably do well at it.  Why?  He's a phenominal athlete.  But golf being his game of choice, he's dedicated himself to that.  He practices more than ANY other golfer out there save Vijay Singh who is widely regarded as the hardest working golfer out there.

To be the best, you have to put in the time - whether its grinding, or questing for that sword that gives 2 percent more to hit. 

For me, becoming the best wasnt about being leet.  It as a personal accomplishment that I had the best template, the best equipment, the best enhancers.  The best strategy for 1 v 1 combat, or even 1 v 5, or 1 v 10.  In SWG, I took great pride that as a Master Gunfighter (Pistoleer), I had the best tools at my disposal to be the best.  I had the best guns.  I had the best CAs and AAs.  I had the best armor.  I knew my strategy.  As a Jedi, I took alot of pride in being an honest to goodness alpha player - thru a perfect saber, capped attachments, and a unique template that suited my playstyle - and understanding my templates strengths and weaknesses.  I put in the time and "effort" to get the perfect pearls for a perfect saber.  I put in the time and "effort" to get +25 CA's.  I practiced dividing up groups, of being solo and wiping out 10 other players against friends, guildies, etc or even just saying fook it, and loading into Theed overt and solo and seeing what worked and what didnt. 

Bah, talk about getting sidetracked....


Anyway, what I am getting at, is that once you "master" or cap out a profession, it doesnt stop there.  All PGA players are exceptional golfers.  The difference in the pro's are the small percentages that makes one better than the other.

[cevik]

The human variable that I am talking about is an athlete getting in the "zone".

Eh, I've played sports and when I pvp in a mmog I get that same "high".. that "In the Zone" feeling where everything is clicking and you can't make a wrong choice and each little thing maps out to infinity of "perfect" choices before you and your body takes over and you're just along for the ride and there nothing left for you to do but watch as everything unfolds and your relfexes get lightening fast and you are the most uber person alive.

I also get that same feeling when I play music (guitar, keyboards, occasionally when I lay down vocals, though mostly that's "forced" and you can tell I lack that feeling).

You can actually buy that feeling in pill form for around $15.  They call it ecstasy.

[Xilren's Twin]

The human variable that I am talking about is an athlete getting in the "zone".  I'm guessing you have never played sports, or are much of a sports fan to begin with.  Combat, like sports, is both a physical test, as well as mental.  Its about a quarterback seeing the defense move before they actually DO.  Its about putting the football in the ONLY spot that ONLY the receive can catch it.  Its about the pitcher catching lightning in a bottle and painting the corners of the plate.  Or a hitter seeing the seams of the ball just as it leaves the pitchers hands. 

As Cevik said, that's not constrainted to just sports (and yes, I both play them and am a big sports fan as well).  Being "in the zone" can happen in almost any activity be it phsyical or mental and interesting enough, seems to cause a streamlining of both your physical moves and mental processes.  Hell, I've spoken to programmers who have had similar experiences where they can code no wrong :).  I've had the feeling in MtG and PvP games a few times myself (though sadly never when playing golf or paintball).  Talk to a few really good FPS players if you don't believe me.

Point being, human variance is part and parcel of mmo's too, IF they're coded to allow it.  It's just by and large most mmorpgs to date don't allow it much impact b/c they don't really want the level 1 beating the level 50.  There's no reason to code in an artificial stat raise for "inspired" play so long as players have a worthwhile amount of control over their own effectiveness.

Xilren

[Hoax]

The human variable that I am talking about is an athlete getting in the "zone".

Eh, I've played sports and when I pvp in a mmog I get that same "high".. that "In the Zone" feeling where everything is clicking and you can't make a wrong choice and each little thing maps out to infinity of "perfect" choices before you and your body takes over and you're just along for the ride and there nothing left for you to do but watch as everything unfolds and your reflexes get lightening fast and you are the most uber person alive.

I get that feeling once in a blue moon in AV when for once my charge into horde lines is timed with an actual push by the people that matter (mages, hunters, warlocks) and I move from horde to horde hamstring, MS, move on.  Execute if one is low.  Suddenly they swarm down on me and I fear them all away and watch with glee as 3 run right into range of the death dealers and die under concentrated fire.  Perhaps I even get a heal...  Then I'm in the midst of their gooey little casters, who often are sitting drinking and get up and try to kite but my charges and intercepts are too fast.  A pally even cleanses me perhaps!  Ahhh glorious.

God I love pvp, when I think of that rush and then listen to people who dont like pvp I can't help but hold them in contempt.  But at least I admit or something.

[HRose]

I've been trying to say this for at least a year or so now.  The best way to avoid the 'progressquest' nature of most of these games is to remove 'character advancement' as not only the primary, but the ONLY thing to do.

I've been generalizing a lot, which is something Raph doesn't seem to like, but "adding different types of advancements", or adding more mechanics that are not focused solely around combat, are the essential premises of a virtual world. That part of the "virtual world" that doesn't suck.

Which is also why I consider "sandbox" (and "virtual world") a synonym of "systemic":

This second model works like a complex system. The development time is still important but it’s not directly proportionate. The linearity is lost and the system is even supposed to move on its own once it is “closed”. Here the “end” is only represented by the boundaries of the sandbox (possibility space) but the longevity depends more on the ties between the elements within more than the actual number of elements.

The other way is what I have as an ideal: the living world. A living world is a sandbox, or a complex system. In a complex system all the elements have a precise function that isn't "replaced" or "mudflated". All these elements are tied together, forming a complexity and shaping up a "world" that is self-consistent and self-contained. Where you just don't need "more space" to justify more content and where you don't need to mudflate and replace anything because every element has a purpose and is justified.

A system is basically a finite space (compared to infinite, linear treadmills) where all the elements have a specific role (no mudflation) and are all tied together. The complexity of the system is proportional to the ties more than the number of elements itself.

Which is essentially: more things to do, more ties, more socialization, more "bring together" instead of apart. Discoving that these online games can offer much more than the endless repetition of one pattern. Which is just a strain and really "limiting".

Too much player skill = FPS

Have you ever heard of "chess"? I don't think it's a FPS.

EDIT- Just to point out that "skill" isn't equal to "twitch". I really don't know how we arrived to that wrong generalization.

[Sky]

EDIT- Just to point out that "skill" isn't equal to "twitch". I really don't know how we arrived to that wrong generalization.

Speaking of wrong generalizations, didn't twitch mean arcade/console fighter style button mashing? I don't understand how fps is twitchy, really. Much of it is very tactical, but then, I guess that's because I play those that focus on a slower more tactical playstyle over headless chicken deathmatch crap with bunnyhoppers.

Let's just agree generalizations suck 

[schild]

I think people equate skill to twitch/FPS in an MMORPG because it's the easiest step from hitting a hotkey and watching a weapon or spell fly out of your hands. MMORPGs by nature are just a step away from a FPS.

Personally I'd rather skill mean turnbased tactics or some sort of card game. Though some FPS action in a solid MMOG would make me happy also.

[SnakeCharmer]

just give me an MMORPG that is:
1.   sci fi based - I HATE elves......
2.   open ground and space pvp
3.   intricate crafting system - a) that no loot drops are better than anything player created   b) if there ARE loot drops that are greater than player created, put a cap on it, as in 25 percent greater, but make the odds of looting it greater than the Florida Lottery
4.   encourages (but not requires) player dependance
5.   allows for players to live in the cities via apartments or housing districts that cost near an arm and a leg to do so
6.   revolves around a central conflict between two sides with 2-4 spin off factions of each
7.   NOT FPS or level based
8.   That does not require me to delete my toon if I decide to go a seperate profession
9.   Offers a flexible skill based system a la preNGE SW:G
10.   Has devs that are honest and forthright with the player base
11. Isnt made by SOE or LA
12. (edit) I dont want the game to be easy.  I want it to requrie thinking.  I want it to be HARD.  I want to have to explore.  I dont want to be directed.  I want it to be  d i f f i c u l t.


And I'll be happy.

Is that too much to ask? 

[Samwise]

just give me an MMORPG that is:
1.   sci fi based - I HATE elves......
2.   open ground and space pvp
3.   intricate crafting system - a) that no loot drops are better than anything player created   b) if there ARE loot drops that are greater than player created, put a cap on it, as in 25 percent greater, but make the odds of looting it greater than the Florida Lottery
4.   encourages (but not requires) player dependance
5.   allows for players to live in the cities via apartments or housing districts that cost near an arm and a leg to do so
revolves around a central conflict between two sides with 2-4 spin off factions of each
6.   NOT FPS or level based
7.   That does not require me to delete my toon if I decide to go a seperate profession
8.   Offers a flexible skill based system a la preNGE SW:G
9.   Has devs that are honest and forthright with the player base
10. Isnt made by SOE or LA

And I'll be happy.

Is that too much to ask? 

Sounds like you have your content all figured out - just find yourself one of those programmer doohickeys and you'll have your very own money hat in no time!

[SnakeCharmer]

hah....

/yell ltb programmer with own servers, bandwidth, etc etc etc PST!!!

[Morfiend]

just give me an MMORPG that is:
1.   sci fi based - I HATE elves......
2.   open ground and space pvp
3.   intricate crafting system - a) that no loot drops are better than anything player created   b) if there ARE loot drops that are greater than player created, put a cap on it, as in 25 percent greater, but make the odds of looting it greater than the Florida Lottery
4.   encourages (but not requires) player dependance
5.   allows for players to live in the cities via apartments or housing districts that cost near an arm and a leg to do so
6.   revolves around a central conflict between two sides with 2-4 spin off factions of each
7.   NOT FPS or level based
8.   That does not require me to delete my toon if I decide to go a seperate profession
9.   Offers a flexible skill based system a la preNGE SW:G
10.   Has devs that are honest and forthright with the player base
11. Isnt made by SOE or LA
12. (edit) I dont want the game to be easy.  I want it to requrie thinking.  I want it to be HARD.  I want to have to explore.  I dont want to be directed.  I want it to be  d i f f i c u l t.


And I'll be happy.

Is that too much to ask? 

Sounds like you want Pre NGE SWG... up until #10 that is.

[SnakeCharmer]

Sounds like you have your content all figured out - just find yourself one of those programmer doohickeys and you'll have your very own money hat in no time!

the bad thing is...and i'll confess something here.....

SW:G was my first MMO that I EVER gave any serious time to.  Why?  Because I hate elves.  I hate gnomes.  I hate fantasy stuff.  It just does_NOT_appeal to me, at all.  

What I DID like about SW:G (besides the fact that it was freaking SW) was that it WASNT fantasy based.  The idea behind SW (which became apparent to me shortly after playing it on launch day +1) was that you could live your own life inside the VW sandbox.  It was flexible.  So, in that respect, it spoiled me.  I look at MMOPRGs (regardless of genre), and feel claustraphobic.  In SW:G, you *could* live the greatest story ever told - your own.  Now, only if it includes being a BH, Smuggler, Commando, Trader, Jedi, Entertainer, Spy, Officer, or Medic.  Sadly, BH, Smuggler, Spy, Commando, and Officer are all the same.  All have damage attacks.  All have snares.  All have heals.  The only thing that seperates them are armor, and a few certed weapons.  And Medics dominate 1 vs 1 PvP because they have two heals.  

Sadly, after 2.5 years of dealing with SOE/LA as being a member of the *cough* vocal minority *cough*, I'll never buy anything they are associated with...ever.  

[SnakeCharmer]

Sounds like you want Pre NGE SWG... up until #10 that is.

Thats probably a very fair assessment.  I'd agree with that.  But that is what I enjoyed.  But it doesnt have to be Star Wars.  I would give near anything for Firefly to be an MMO based on the above. 

But because a certain MMO is sci fi, doesnt mean I'll play it.  Star Trek, for instance, has VERY little chance of me playing it. 

[Shockeye]

Tabula Rasa, baby.

[SnakeCharmer]

Tabula Rasa, baby.

FPS...bleh...Although it does look interesting...purty screenies thou

I just dont see how an MMOFPS will ever be that fun - primarily due to lag. 

Crafting?

Is it in beta yet?  alpha?  i see off of gamespot, where release date is just under a year away...

[Glazius]

So you're making blanket statements that people who ran mining businesses (whether it be dropping a harvester on an ore spawn, or talus water spawn) didnt enjoy what they did?  Some people took great pride in having the best resources for sale.  For going out, surveying the land for the best, highest concentration spawn.  They could be the most antisocial person in the game, and still be great at what they did or enjoy it.  Technically, even as a crafter or merchant, you dont have to interact with ANYONE if you dont want to, as you're selling your wares thru a vendor, making the cash transaction thru a vendor, etc.

But again, in this case, the _results_ can be fun.

The _process_ isn't.

--GF

[Akkori]

For *you* maybe.

[Glazius]

For *you* maybe.

Look, unless they've drastically changed resource gathering with the NGE, it goes something like this.

1) Activate survey tool.

2) Wait.

3) Look at result graph.

4) Walk to area with largest concentration.

5) Activate sample tool.

6) Wait.

7) Examine sample, assuming you got one, if not repeat from 5.

The end.

Resources are scattered randomly and patternlessly throughout the galaxy. There's no telling what will be where at any given time or how long it will be there. It's like a scratch-off lottery ticket that takes 10 minutes to finish scratching, and I don't know anybody who just can't get enough of scratching off those wonderful tickets, despite what my state lottery commercials would like me to believe.

I will say this - with the removal of the HAM system at least it's more fun than punching yourself in the face. Before it actually hurt you.

--GF

[Akkori]

Allow me to edit this to reflect the flip side....

Look, unless they've drastically changed Combat with the NGE, it goes something like this.

1) Activate light saber.

2) Wait.

3) Look at force bar.

4) Walk to lair with largest concentration of Pikets.

5) Swing light saber.

6) Heal self.

7) Examine lair, assuming its still there, repeat from 5.

The end.

Lairs are scattered randomly and patternlessly throughout the galaxy. The best method includes the use of mission terminals to get WP to lairs. It's like a scratch-off lottery ticket that takes 5 minutes to finish scratching, and I don't know anybody who just can't get enough of scratching off those wonderful tickets, despite what my state lottery commercials would like me to believe.


--GF's evil twin

There are equally repetative and boring things to do on both sides of the fence. I would hope that game companies would put in both sides of the fence to open the doors for more people to play.

[Glazius]

Allow me to edit this to reflect the flip side....

That would be a better argument if the only thing to fight in the game were lairs of Pikets. Of course anything algorithmable and even macroable isn't fun.

But there's no other way to gather resources.

--GF

[Righ]

Sadly, BH, Smuggler, Spy, Commando, and Officer are all the same.  All have damage attacks.  All have snares.  All have heals.  The only thing that seperates them are armor, and a few certed weapons.  And Medics dominate 1 vs 1 PvP because they have two heals.   

Spies, despite getting most from the redesigned but unreleased ranger profession, did not get a snare. On the other hand, they do have a vanish (smoke bomb) that grants them immunity, which lets them wait out the heal and aoe cooldowns. FWIW.

[Righ]

Oh, and now that I've read through the rest of the wibble here, I'm even more confident that no character progression is the way to go. Getting new tools and weapons and puzzle solving to open up new content is better than just 'doing the time'. If there are people who use hint sites, macros and a focus on completing the unlocks very quickly and leave the game early, it's okay. They were not the sort of person who was going to spend months in a level/raid grind to unlock content anyhow.

As to people with no playtime coming into a game you've played for months and yet immediately being as powerful as you? Get over yourself buddy.

[Glazius]

Oh, and now that I've read through the rest of the wibble here, I'm even more confident that no character progression is the way to go. Getting new tools and weapons and puzzle solving to open up new content is better than just 'doing the time'. If there are people who use hint sites, macros and a focus on completing the unlocks very quickly and leave the game early, it's okay. They were not the sort of person who was going to spend months in a level/raid grind to unlock content anyhow.

As to people with no playtime coming into a game you've played for months and yet immediately being as powerful as you? Get over yourself buddy.

Well, if someone can roll an endless supply of n00bler alchemists and use their starting detonation potions to reduce any player-made structure to a smoking heap of rubble, that represents a problem.

Also: equipment progression is just character progression in a fancy hat. Instead of grinding to get level 50 which gets you gated entry to Glaciel's Crevasse, people will be grinding to get A Frost-Proof Climbing Rope, which gets you gated entry to Glaciel's Crevasse.

--GF