Vanguard

[Signe]

Good Lord!  It's made by Scandies!

[Wolf]

You really don't like people do you?

Go stand in walmart parking lot and try to get 5 other people to go help you move furniture for a few hours. That's mmo grouping to me.

You're not offering enough 40s and clean socks. That description, btw, is the best description of MMOGs I've ever read.

Isn't that one better: You know - you think to yourself - sex with someone is pretty good. Sex with lots of people at the same time should be more fun right? But somehow you always end up being the bukake target. That's online gaming.

I'm sure I saw it on these forums, don't remember who said it though 

[Sky]

Man, quite a few stuck up people here.

My problem is Wal-Mart itself, actually. The worst thing about the people who shop there is that they'll sacrifice everything for low prices. Downtown turns into a ghostland, more national retailers slip in and kill off the rest of local businesses, millions of dollars a week flow out of our community and into Bentonville, not to mention the ridiculous trade defecit with China or the human injustices.

Shit, the welfare crowd just can't compete with that.

I still flip products over to see where they're made and try to buy things responsibly, but it's damned hard in this day of reckless and irresponsible capitalism.

[Lordofchance]

Man, quite a few stuck up people here. There's a range of stuff I have no problem grabbing from WalMart since they typically beat everyone in town on the prices. Dear god, I had to rub elbows with THE UNCLEAN. I mean, can you believe that they even let minorities in there?

(edited for people who may fail at internet sarcasm)

Try working at a Kmart for 3 years as your first job and then tell me how you feel.

[Signe]

Target is better than Walmart, no?  Isn't Walmart supposed to be like the bargain basement Target?  I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

[Alkiera]

ridiculous trade defecit with China

It's not our fault the Chinese can't afford America-produced goods.  The cost to get an American to do work is just so much higher than what it takes a Chinese person to work, that goods produced there are more affordable for them than goods produced here... And unlike Japan, China doesn't have an underground 'OMG, America is Cool' movement to push purchase of imported stuff.  Economics.

IMO, 'trade deficit' is one of the most frequently abused phrases in America political/economic discussions.  Some people seem to think it's an inherently bad thing, and I can't figure out why.

Alkiera

[Sky]

I can't figure out why.

Billions of dollars leaving our country and not coming back.

[Soukyan]

ridiculous trade defecit with China

It's not our fault the Chinese can't afford America-produced goods.  The cost to get an American to do work is just so much higher than what it takes a Chinese person to work, that goods produced there are more affordable for them than goods produced here... And unlike Japan, China doesn't have an underground 'OMG, America is Cool' movement to push purchase of imported stuff.  Economics.

IMO, 'trade deficit' is one of the most frequently abused phrases in America political/economic discussions.  Some people seem to think it's an inherently bad thing, and I can't figure out why.

Alkiera

You'll see why when China cashes in on those billions of dollars of US Gov't bonds they keep buying from us. A few more years and they could technically own us.

[UD_Delt]

It's not our fault the Chinese can't afford America-produced goods.  The cost to get an American to do work is just so much higher than what it takes a Chinese person to work, that goods produced there are more affordable for them than goods produced here...
Alkiera

Communism and labor camps help...

I ran into one of my fraternity brothers at a wedding over the holidays and he's now making regular trips to China to check up on one of their manufacturing plants. From the descriptions it sounded more like visiting a prison than it did visiting a factory. "Employees" live on site and are provided with everything they need so they never have to leave down to the point where the factory was fenced with guarded gates. When we asked him whether the gates were to keep people in our out he said he honestly wasn't sure.

[HaemishM]

IMO, 'trade deficit' is one of the most frequently abused phrases in America political/economic discussions.  Some people seem to think it's an inherently bad thing, and I can't figure out why.

Because Americans like to have jobs that pay in their country, and not have their job shipped to a person in another country who works for slave wages.

[Murgos]

You'll see why when China cashes in on those billions of dollars of US Gov't bonds they keep buying from us. A few more years and they could technically own us.

China uses the US dollar as the backing for thier own currency.  They aren't going to do anything with those bonds except quietly renew them when they come due.

[Alkiera]

I can't figure out why.

Billions of dollars leaving our country and not coming back.

But they do, in the form of goods.  A 'trade deficit' means that we buy more stuff from them, than they buy from us.  We're not giving them money for nothing, we're giving them money for goods they produce.  We do this because it is cheaper to produce the goods there and ship them here, than it is to hire someone here to produce the goods.

You'll see why when China cashes in on those billions of dollars of US Gov't bonds they keep buying from us. A few more years and they could technically own us.

That has nothing to do with trade deficit, and everything to do with government borrowing, which I agree IS a problem.  Especially borrowing from other countries.  Again, absolutely unrelated to trade deficit.

IMO, 'trade deficit' is one of the most frequently abused phrases in America political/economic discussions.  Some people seem to think it's an inherently bad thing, and I can't figure out why.

Because Americans like to have jobs that pay in their country, and not have their job shipped to a person in another country who works for slave wages.

Of course they do.  And China is not the best example, but in at least some of these cases, the people who work producing goods for America in other coutries, are much better off than the average person in their county, because what we would call slave wages is middle-class income in their country... Very very low cost of living 4twin.  Indian call center workers, for example.  They might make half what an American would make to do that job, but there is so little work that pays that much there, that it's a great deal.  India also apparently has a different cultural view of call center jobs, they don't see it as a 'scum of the earth' kind of employment.

The real reason for these problems (IMO) is the relatively recent push for 'free trade', and 'globalization'.  The idea being that we can spend money in piddly third world countries so they develop, and eventually become 2nd or even 1st world countries.  Once everyone has reached our level of economic development, they will all be happier, thusly be happier with us and not want to blow us up, poison us, or cause general mayhem in other ways.  Unfortunately, this takes a long time, and the job losses locally make people unhappy.  It's a lot faster and cheaper to just blow up the people who want to blow you up...  But not everyone agrees with the ethics of that.

I tried to write this in such a way that it's not very political.  I'm not sure I succeeded.

Alkiera

[Lordofchance]

Alkiera you bring up some fine points, but I dont think a company views going to india for outsourcing as a way to help that culture.  They do it because they get to spend less while getting sub-par quality in return.  They could careless if they are screwing over the american worker as long as they are making their cash.

What I find amusing is also that the majority of so called "American Made" cars normally made, or majority of parts are made, outside of the US.

[Merusk]

You'll see why when China cashes in on those billions of dollars of US Gov't bonds they keep buying from us. A few more years and they could technically own us.

China uses the US dollar as the backing for thier own currency.  They aren't going to do anything with those bonds except quietly renew them when they come due.

I thought they were talking about switching over to the Euro a few months back.  Or was that just them stirring the pot because we weren't doing something they wanted?   Either way, China plays econonomics like it's PKs play MMOs and America is turning into a nation of carebears.  We're going to be pwned sooner or later.

[Fabricated]

Man, quite a few stuck up people here. There's a range of stuff I have no problem grabbing from WalMart since they typically beat everyone in town on the prices. Dear god, I had to rub elbows with THE UNCLEAN. I mean, can you believe that they even let minorities in there?

(edited for people who may fail at internet sarcasm)

Try working at a Kmart for 3 years as your first job and then tell me how you feel.

I worked at a Movie Gallery right next to a WalMart for 2 and a half years, and we were the only chain in town that rented porn outside of overpriced "fantasy" shops. I win.

[Swede]

Trade def. is where you import more than you export - ie you sacrifice consuming tomorrow for consuming today - in most aspects directly comparable to a regular loan - which must be payed back at some point

Chine is keeping a lid on their overheated economy, to be able to produce cheap items to hawk off to you guys for as long as possible go scew their balance... kinda like the windup phase of a punch...windup more, and you can punch harder..)

[Alkiera]

Trade def. is where you import more than you export - ie you sacrifice consuming tomorrow for consuming today - in most aspects directly comparable to a regular loan - which must be payed back at some point

No.

Definitions of trade deficit on the Web:

    * The value of a nation's imports exceeds the value of its exports.
      www.afsc.org/trade-matters/learn-about/glossary.htm

    * Imports minus exports of goods and services. See deficit.
      www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/t.html

    * condition in which the value of a nation”s imports is greater than its exports
      www.wcit.org/tradeis/glossary.htm

    * The amount by which a country's merchandise exports exceed its merchandise imports.
      countrystudies.us/united-states/economy-12.htm

    * Trade Deficit, used interchangebly with Balance of Trade, is an excess of imports over exports. Trade Surplus is an excess of exports over imports. More accurately, the all- encompassing term is Balance of Trade -- a Surplus or a Deficit. The Balance of Trade is made up of transactions in merchandise and other movable goods. Factors that influence the Balance of Trade:
      stock1.com/50best/g-funana.htm

    * a negative balance of trade in which a country imports more than it exports. The difference must be made up in financial payments usually in hard currency. Contrast trade surplus.
      www.naiadonline.ca/book/01Glossary.htm

    * an excess of imports over exports
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    * Balance of trade figures are the sum of the money gained by a given economy by selling exports, minus the cost of buying imports. They form part of the balance of payments, which also includes other transactions such as the international investment position.
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_deficit

It's not that anyone owes anyone anything.  It's CONSTRUED that way.... but It's not like China is giving us lots of goods, and were giving them relatively few goods, and in 30 years China is gonna force us to pay up.  We're paying for all the goods we get from China.  Just as China is paying for the few goods they buy from us.  The 'trade deficit' is due to the total dollar amount that we buy from them is greater than the amount they buy from us.  We don't owe China anything(related to the trade deficit anyway.  US Bonds, etc, are a whole different thing). 

from the Wikipedia link:

By economic definition, a persistent trade deficit can only exist if there is a corresponding capital surplus. Otherwise, the currency would naturally decline until the deficit were eliminated.

....

Factors that can affect the balance of trade figures include:

    * Prices of goods manufactured at home (influenced by the responsiveness of supply),
    * Exchange rates, and
    * Trade agreements or barriers
    * other tax, tariff and trade measures

Country	GDP	GDP per capita
USA	$ 11,750,000,000,000	$ 40,100
China	$ 7,262,000,000,000	$ 5,600
India	$ 3,319,000,000,000	$ 3,100

As you can see, the US has something like a 50% difference in economic output, in raw numbers, between the USA and China.  The per-capita numbers are even more interesting, IMO.  Median Income in the US is something like $28,000/yr.  GDP per capita is $40,000.  If you assume similar ratio for India...  It should be obvious how we can afford to pay call center people there peanuts.  We could pay them $10,000 a year, like $5/hour, and they'd live like KINGS.

The US trade deficit doesn't mean we are in debt to anyone.  Just means there is a lack of certain kinds of jobs, due to the ease of shipping those jobs overseas.

As to the wisdom or lack of wisdom in doing that, I choose not to share my opinion.  Just trying to dispel the myth that a 'trade deficit' is inherently bad.  It's basically a useless statistic the majority of times it is used.  We produce more money than any other country on Earth.  We produce more money than the entire European Union combined.  It makes sense that we spend some of that outside of our own borders.

Alkiera

[Strazos]

Also, (though one of the above definitions referred to it) Trade Deficit/Balence of Trade does not usually include references to Services.

As a post-Industrial nation, we have moved our emphasis away from raw production and more towards providing services, such as financial management, etc. Just because we import more money in the form of goods than we export, does not mean the country is bleeding money. It also doesn't mean I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

EDIT: Nice stealth edit, jerk.

[Swede]

Check your balance sheet ...USA has a dept of 8,160,320,491,591.57 dollars

If you buy more than you produce (import more than you export) you have to pay for it sooner or later. I didnt mention the possibility of paying with already saved dollars since I took for granted that everyone knew that to be able to afford chineese goods you borrowed  money from them.

A "debt" is the total sum of all "deficits"

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm for the numbers.

[Mi_Tes]

Back to Vanguard.....


I have a few questions about this game, because it seems to be the only fantasy MMO being released this year and I need a new game.  Anyone know if it is still slated to be on the 360 and PC?  Any news on the beta?  I heard they only let people in beta with 2GB because they haven't optimized the code yet (that would explain why I haven't heard anything after registering in Oct)?  Anyone have an indication of how close is this getting?  I checked their site and found the last press release was May 2004, last interview in Oct 2005, and a few recent screenies.  Trying to keep an open mind, but still amazed this isn't vapor yet and was picked over Mythica......


Where have I been?  Props for the spell check option - I love it!!!! (not that I am a shitty speller or anything) ;)

[Tale]

You must have been looking at their corporate site http://www.sigilgames.com - the official site for the game is http://www.vanguardsoh.com or http://www.vanguardsaga.com, whichever you want to call it. One of the main fansites is http://www.silkyvenom.com

[Mi_Tes]

Actually, I had clicked on http://www.vanguardsaga.com/news.php#pr for the press releases and didn't see anything newer in the way of press releases (just announcing the game and using the unreal engine in 2004). 

Did a little more looking and found in the news for the last few months http://www.vanguardsaga.com/news.php, the fanguard registration, announcing affiliated sites, several people visiting Sigil, and some art contests.  I did see a reference in silkyvenom that Vanguard would be live in 2006, so at least I have one answer.  Still, it doesn't seem like a lot of information for a game scheduled out this year.  In the past, this lack of information has been an indication that the release date is being pushed back or it is getting closer to vapor.  I guess we will see!

[Merusk]

All you could ever want to know about Vanguard you can find by reading its forums. Specifically here. They communicate to their players through there rather than issuing press releases, it would seem.

  If you enjoyed WoW, chances are you'll hate Vanguard. It's a return to oldschool EQ, and the fanbase is fighting to make it more h4rdc0r3. Corpse Runs, Long Grinds, Long, long Raids, Rare Spawns, long runs with only a few classes able to shorten travel times.  All of it are lauded as the zenith of game design, argue otherwise and you're simply whining for an 'easy carebear game'.

The whole thing stinks of catass, and I wouldn't touch it with Bruce's e-peen.

[SuperPopTart]

Oddly enough on the Vanguard forums the devs, people persons and what have you are very active in the community, constantly checking and seemingly balancing a decent human relations front. I naturally expect this to stop upon release of said game. I also have to agree that this is essentially going to be Everquest for those whom no longer play Everquest and miss the grind of it. Oddly enough, myself included, not that I have any intention of playing it but I do intend on at least trying it out. 

It could be because I just like putting myself in lots and lots of pain. We'll see.

On the way of beta, I also have not heard much in the way of invitations and it was my understanding the the only people being invited thus far were off the message board.

[Tale]

In the past, this lack of information has been an indication that the release date is being pushed back or it is getting closer to vapor.  I guess we will see!

I may or may not have a friend who may or may not look like this:  I believe that  may look like  underneath, but must remain  or become  and 

It's definitely not vaporware. It is in a closed beta (beyond friends & family, but only just), very high spec clients only due to being developed for future hardware (just as EQ1 beta needed Voodoo or D3D omg), and the release date is still quite far away. I'm thinking late 2006 or early 2007.

[Merusk]

very high spec clients only due to being developed for future hardware (just as EQ1 beta needed Voodoo or D3D omg),

This prhase always makes me hesitant.  You can't forsee 'future' hardware.  You can develop for the bleeding edge hardware you think will be mainstream by the time you release, but developing for 'future' hardware just causes buggy/ laggy engines that need lots of optimization. See EQ2, SWG.  Also, what if you predict wrong and instead of what you coded for, a new, easier standard pops into place in the middle of development?

[Tale]

It was my phrase, not Sigil's. They may be developing for bleeding edge, I just happened to use the word 'future' to describe what I thought they were doing. But they did target the right technology with their previous game, so who knows.

[Merusk]

Yeah, I was just complaiing about companies that do that in general, not specifically Sigil.

[Simond]

All you could ever want to know about Vanguard you can find by reading its forums. Specifically here. They communicate to their players through there rather than issuing press releases, it would seem.

  If you enjoyed WoW, chances are you'll hate Vanguard. It's a return to oldschool EQ, and the fanbase is fighting to make it more h4rdc0r3. Corpse Runs, Long Grinds, Long, long Raids, Rare Spawns, long runs with only a few classes able to shorten travel times.  All of it are lauded as the zenith of game design, argue otherwise and you're simply whining for an 'easy carebear game'.

I finally figured out what most of the posters there reminded me of. They're like an odd PvE-version of the 'Dreadlord-era UO was the greatest game ever' who think launch-era EQ was the best any MMOG could ever hope to be.

I'm looking forward to Vanguard's launch just to see their dreams shatter like spun crystal ground underfoot.

[shiznitz]

I don't ever want to game with people who thought the Rubicite camp/queue was fun.

[Sky]

I don't ever want to game with people who thought the Rubicite camp/queue was fun.

Hey, that's the reason I sold my first EQ account! Ah...good times. The game was actually fun up until everyone swamped Cazic, disillurionment set in.

Bought a new account when Kunark launched, but it was never the same again. Damage was done.

[SuperPopTart]

I don't ever want to game with people who thought the Rubicite camp/queue was fun.

It was fun. A long, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago.

Then.things.turned.bad.

[Nebu]

I finally figured out what most of the posters there reminded me of. They're like an odd PvE-version of the 'Dreadlord-era UO was the greatest game ever' who think launch-era EQ was the best any MMOG could ever hope to be.

I think people tend to romanticize the past.  Sample of early EQ include:

a) Waiting in long lines to sit at a static camp for hours... even to complete a quest.
b) Waiting 20 mins between a spawn at a camp for a miniscule chance of some rare mob spawning only to have a leet kiddie kill it out of turn.
c) Long waits between fights due to slow health/power regen rates.  If you were a caster, you had the added bonus of staring at a spell book until level 32 or 34 or something.
d) Dying only to find that the next 6h of your life were wasted attempting to get the loot you had farmed for weeks back. 
e) Who can forget losing a level due to the death penalty?  Fun fun fun!
f) More bad memories that I've repressed... like waiting 10 mins to take a 10 min boat ride only to get killed by bugged sharks, etc.

How on Earth can anyone look back on this and think it was "fun"?  Evolution happens by learning from mistakes... BAD mistakes.

[Simond]

See, that's why I said I'm lokoing forward to Vanguard launch: Either Verant Sigil learnt enough from EQ to make Vanguard not-quite brainmeltingly awful (and the vanbois will whine about how it's easier than early EQ was), or Vanguard turns out to be just as much a grindtastic catassfest as early EQ was (and the vanbois will suddenly remember why they spent so much time whining about how unfair/slow/etc. EQ was).

Win-win, as my manager would no doubt say. 

[Sky]

That was quick!

e) Who can forget losing a level due to the death penalty?  Fun fun fun!

Reason I quit EQ the second time (well, one of many, but a primary). Gaining exp was so slow in level 54 that I was basically starting to move in reverse and I didn't feel like playing as level 53 without a couple critical spells.