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Topic: Warrior Questions: Stance Switching (Read 7604 times)
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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This a noob question. I've raided as a Priest, not a tank. But now that I am building a tank...
Observation: For mobs that fear a lot I gather the main tank assumes beserker stance often to protect himself against fear effects.
Question: How do protection tanks do this? Protection tanks don't have any talent point in Arms to retain rage points if they switch stances - so does this mean that protection tanks who assume beserker stance generally lose all their rage - is this a viable tactic?
(I appreciate that some protection tanks may put talents int arms to retain rage when stance switching - but is that the norm for protection tanks?)
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« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 11:03:24 PM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Yes. Putting talents to get the 25 rage after switching is pretty much a must. It's easily done if you lose out on some of the less useful protection talents.
To be honest, the WoW boards will give you TONS of information on this matter - the warrior board at the european boards actually have a lot of very helpful stuff that is stickied.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Calantus
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2389
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The big kicker with it is that you can't switch to battlestance and do a mocking blow if you don't have tactical mastery. Wasn't fun when one of our tanks specced prot, left it out, then had taunt resisted on spider boss in ZG. -_-
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kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3113
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Well for one thing the berserker skill that protects vs fear costs no rage so if you think you are about to get feared you can pop into serker wait till you get jacked hit your button and switch back to defensive.
Still I have to recommend to any warrior that getting at least 3 points into tactical mastery is a good thing TM. Giving you 15 rage that transfers over allows you to keep enough rage to preform just about any one useful ability after you shift.
kaid
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kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3113
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For an example of my build currently I am 31 points into defensive/8 into arms and 5 into fury.
If you are going defensive you will always want at least 5 arms for improved parry. You would be foolish to not get it since if you are going defensive you are clearly aiming at the main tank role. If you already go 5 into arms then sticking 3 or 5 more points into tactical mastery is a no brainer.
kaid
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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TM is good, and in some cases a must. But I've done MT for everything from Onyxia to MC to ZG, and I'll say this. You aren't going to be bouncing around in stances a ton unless things are going wrong. In Onyxia, you never need to get out of defensive because she can't be taunted. You have to build it up instead with sunders, heroic strikes, and revenges. The same is true of MC bosses. ZG is different in that the bosses are tauntable, but only the spider boss and tiger boss are going to put you through the ringer on keeping aggro because of their knockbacks and roots. Also, stance dancing away from fear provides that you know a fear is coming. In pvp this is damn near impossible, and in PvE, it takes a good bit of timing and luck.
My build for tanking is 31 arms to MS, 5 fury which is all cruelty, and 15 protection which includes 5 Anticipation, 5 Toughness, 5 Defiance. Defiance is by far the best protection talent in there.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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A 31 arms tank build ? Er, What ?
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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A 31 arms tank build ? Er, What ?
You'd be shocked at how many high end raiding tanks aren't full protection. It's pretty useless outside of three main talents. All of which I listed. The shield bash thing at the very top is nice, but in no way shape or form does it beat the dps you can get from having a 31 arms build. And taunts are a crutch anyway. Raiding tanks don't even need them because they are ahead of the aggro list. It's not meant to be the end all be all for tanking solely, but it's for the tanks that do it and like playing their character in the rest of the game. Sure you could be a slightly better tank with full protection, but only slightly, and the rest of the game would be really really boring.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3113
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Yup he is right although I am such an instance hog I decided to go 31 into defensive frankly other than the first 15 points the rest is utility not necessity.
I very well may shift to that build myself but for now I am a small gnomish turtle. My ability to slather on sunders with wild abandon and silence casters with my shield bash has served me well for now.
It is kinda annoying though that pretty much once you get the 5 points to improved block 5 points into the 10% armor buff and 5 points into defiance thats pretty much it for things that actually make you tank better in the defensive tree. At the very high end anticipation for the 10 defense may be nice but that seems like an awful lot of talent points for the defense boost.
kaid
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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A 31 arms tank build ? Er, What ?
Protection is almost entirely worthless, and spending more than 15-20 points in that tree does jack and shit for your ability to hold aggro or mitigate damage on raids, where the silences and stuns are worthless (in a good group, other classes do these things better even in single groups). This is intentional: if the tree significantly increased tanking ability, the warrior class would be effectively divided into two classes. See also: the priest holy tree. If you have the fortune to be in a good guild or perma-group, Protection is the "misc group PvP utility tree." If you don't, it's the "well, some of this crap helps make up for the fact that most of my groupmates are complete fucking idiots" tree.
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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I understand all that. It's just I rarely see the 31 build described as a tank build. I think of it more as a PvP build to be honest.
But, hey, I'm a rogue at heart. My warrior is purely a sideline.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3113
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Its a bit odd yes but frankly anything with 15 into defense is about as tank a build as you get. Yes defensive has some nice utility stuff at the end which I admit is nice. Having improved taunt/improved sunder and improved block allows me to be sundering taunting or revenging pretty much at will constantly.
The downside of an all defensive build is pvp is frustrating due to an utter lack of burst dps and most of your talents are pve oriented and soloing pve while safe is GLACIAL. Due to your lack of burst damage you pretty much have to solo at higher levels with sword and board so your DPS is low and the fights really drag on.
Thankfully I am almost always in a group with a priest and a mage so the utility for me so far has proven more useful than DPS would be. I am however tempted to try the 31 arms 20 defensive build to see how that works for me in my group. This would lower my tank utility a smidge but would jack my dps through the roof compared to what I am currently capable of.
kaid
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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I do admit to a fondness for Improved Overpower.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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I understand all that. It's just I rarely see the 31 build described as a tank build. I think of it more as a PvP build to be honest.
31-15-5 tank 31-20-0 PvP any build without MS = kekelolz, you aren't even really a warrior (sadly, this is only a bit of an exaggeration).
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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Paelos and I use the same build, cool.
The protection tree is pretty much not that useful outside of those 15 points. I love playing my warrior, but we have like maybe 2 effective builds that don't require an uber-guild to be a cog in. Shit, the biggest debate you have building a warrior is what weapon specialization you pick.
Being a warrior has fucked me up playing my alts, especially my rogue alt, since every rogue talent tree is awesome.
As for the stance dancing thing, I don't really worry about that since I treat it like it's not my job to keep myself from being feared. If you got a dwarf priest or a pally you're pretty much good to go, and if fear is that huge of an issue, I use the luxury of my blacksmithing trinket to make myself immune to fear for a good 30 seconds. I only find myself stance dancing in instances when fighting enemies that run for a quick execute when people forget to root/slow the enemy.
If you have to stance dance a lot as the main tank, something's wrong.
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« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 10:59:41 AM by Fabricated »
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3113
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Stance dancing is way more of a pvp or a solo pve thing than something you do tanking. Generally the only stance dancing I do while main tanking is battle stance charge sunder once defensive stance for the rest of the fight. I only pop out of defensive if I need to hamstring things and then its just blipout hamstring then right back to defensive.
Usually though if my frost mage buddy is around snaring is usually not neccessary.
kaid
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Hoax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8110
l33t kiddie
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I have a 60 warrior on the account I just picked up the sub for from a buddy who had stopped playing.
I'm rolling another priest, because warriors are so goddamn common on pvp servers like mine its not even funny.
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A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation. -William Gibson
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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Protection is almost entirely worthless, and spending more than 15-20 points in that tree does jack and shit for your ability to hold aggro or mitigate damage on raids, where the silences and stuns are worthless (in a good group, other classes do these things better even in single groups).
Thus my other question - which is relevant to a number of classes: Question: If the boss mob is immunte to stun/daze/root does this mean that if such actions are performed against the boss there will be no aggro? The stun from (improved) revenge is a good example. Yup, your not going to stun a boss. But I wonder - will the act of attempting to stun the boss give more aggro? Does revenge (with no stun) generate the same amount of aggro against a boss as improved revenge when performed against a an MC boss? The main tank in our guild is arms based with about 20 points into Defensive.
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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Protection is almost entirely worthless, and spending more than 15-20 points in that tree does jack and shit for your ability to hold aggro or mitigate damage on raids, where the silences and stuns are worthless (in a good group, other classes do these things better even in single groups).
Thus my other question - which is relevant to a number of classes: Question: If the boss mob is immunte to stun/daze/root does this mean that if such actions are performed against the boss there will be no aggro? The stun from (improved) revenge is a good example. Yup, your not going to stun a boss. But I wonder - will the act of attempting to stun the boss give more aggro? Does revenge (with no stun) generate the same amount of aggro against a boss as improved revenge when performed against a an MC boss? The main tank in our guild is arms based with about 20 points into Defensive. As far as I know, yes. Shield bash generates a ton of aggro regardless if you interrupt a spell with it or not, and I've held aggro with sunder armor even after stacking 5 sunders.
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Hoax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8110
l33t kiddie
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Thought I would tack this on because I just started up again and it really pissed me off. Seems like the main question has been answered here.
-Good site for macro creation commands?
-When I was playing a priest at release, I had setup PW:S to be auto cast on me if I did not have a friendly target selected, currently I have to target myself then cast. This blows, someone remind/re-teach me how to make it the way I had it before.
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A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation. -William Gibson
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Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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Thought I would tack this on because I just started up again and it really pissed me off. Seems like the main question has been answered here.
-Good site for macro creation commands?
-When I was playing a priest at release, I had setup PW:S to be auto cast on me if I did not have a friendly target selected, currently I have to target myself then cast. This blows, someone remind/re-teach me how to make it the way I had it before.
I just use a UI mod for that. Alt+Clicking self casts in my setup. Here's the best mod I could find that wasn't in Cosmos. http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=906
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Pococurante
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2060
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Threads like these remind me that despite my years I'm really a gamer dilletante. :) Yes, you do not want me on your raids.
"Pointy end go in man."
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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Thus my other question - which is relevant to a number of classes:
Question: If the boss mob is immunte to stun/daze/root does this mean that if such actions are performed against the boss there will be no aggro?
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure it is something like: aggro =( damage + hard-coded skill aggro) * ((stance/class mod) *(defiance mod)) so, no. I don't thiink the silence component of shield bash or the stun component of improved revenge adds aggro to stun/silence immune mobs. Or even non-immune mobs, for that matter. JFC, I made an 'I'm drunk' post on teh intarweb. Kill me pls
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« Last Edit: December 03, 2005, 06:50:52 AM by El Gallo »
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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HRose
I'm Special
Posts: 1205
VIKLAS!
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My build for tanking is 31 arms to MS, 5 fury which is all cruelty, and 15 protection which includes 5 Anticipation, 5 Toughness, 5 Defiance. Defiance is by far the best protection talent in there. I also was thinking to respect to that but I find the shouts (on the fury tree) rather powerful and I don't think I'm going to drop the points I've put in them.
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Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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Threads like these remind me that despite my years I'm really a gamer dilletante. :) Yes, you do not want me on your raids.
"Pointy end go in man." Play a warrior, that's pretty much what you do. I don't mind it since I think it's cool to be one of the lynchpins in the group without having to micromanage aggro/mana/items/pets. Most fights go like this: taunt, shield block, revenge, sunder, sunder, sunder, revenge, taunt, shield block, revenge, sunder, heroic strike, repeat.
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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I hear comments that the act of shield bash "forces revenge to light-up"?
Do I understand this correctly - can warrior actions prompt the revenge ability to be active? (I thought it was soley based on the actions of the target).
Defiance - how useful is this really? Would you not be better off putting the talants into something that just increased your damage?
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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Defiance is a threat generator. In raids where taunt doesn't work on bosses, it's very very key. Basically you'll be trying to hold aggro by pounding the boss with sunders, revenges, etc. The rest of the raid has to be kept on a timer by you as to when to start their DPS. If everyone just started shooting at the boss without letting you get aggro on him, it would be a wipe fast. That's why defiance is good, because it decreases the amount of time it takes to generate high aggro on a boss.
Also, yes shield block forces a block on the next attack, and revenge is lit up immediately after a block. So yes, you can light up revenge with a block.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Of course you can.
*Slaps Forehead.*
I'd never even noticed that, nor thought why it should be the case.
I RP my warrior, obviously. My thinking shuts down...
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Calantus
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2389
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Cause I thought it might be relevant... this is saved in a .txt file in my wow folder. I can't claim credit cause I stole it from somewhere, I just can't recall where. :P
Skills by total hate generated on a single target (50% mob dmg reduction): 1. Shield Slam - 1950 total hate. 2. Revenge - 1370 total hate. 3. Sunder Armor - 1050 total hate. 4. Shield Bash - 930 total hate. 5. Heroic Strike - 890 total hate. 6. Cleave - 490 total hate. 7. Thunder Clap -340 total hate. 8. Bloodrage - 335 total hate. 9. Demoralizing Shout - 175 total hate.
Skills by hate/rage efficiency on a single target (50% mob dmg reduction): 1. Revenge - 273 hate per rage. 2. Shield Bash - 93 hate per rage. 3. Sunder Armor - 70(88) hate per rage. 4. Shield slam- 65 hate per rage. 5. Heroic Strike (fast weapon) - 59(49) hate per rage. 6. Cleave (fast weapon) - 21(27) hate per rage. 7. Demoralizing shout - 18 hate per rage. 8. Thunder Clap - 17 hate per rage.
Regular physical damage in def stance (with defiance): 4.0 hate per point of damage.
1 Hate = 1 point of healing by a Priest with 20% threat reduction talent.
/endfile
Also note that there are no diminished returns on aggro from any ability. Sunder gains the same aggro even when it is already stacked 5 times. Taunt does temporary aggro. Think of it like a reverse fade, you need to have enough aggro to overcome another's aggro with taunt, and then once the taunt is gone you will lose all that taunt aggro. So taunt is basically for using to focus a mob on you while you put on more permanent aggro (though sometimes you gotta taunt spam and hope the priest can keep the sparkly mage alive between taunts).
Summary: Use revenge whenever it is not on cooldown. Even when forcing it with a shield block you still are better off. Use sunder whenever revenge is on cooldown (there's more to it than that, but those are the basics).
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kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3113
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I hear comments that the act of shield bash "forces revenge to light-up"?
Do I understand this correctly - can warrior actions prompt the revenge ability to be active? (I thought it was soley based on the actions of the target).
Defiance - how useful is this really? Would you not be better off putting the talants into something that just increased your damage?
I don't think they are thinking of shield bash the ability they are talking about I believe is shield block or whatever its called. Basically it costs 10 rage and ups your chance to block by 75% for the next hit or mutiple hits if you have the talent. If you throw this up you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to revenge right afterwards. Frankly since I took improved block and improved parry and have a butt ton of + defense I find that I don't really need to coax revenge much. Generally I can revenge just about as fast as it relights back up in most fights. kaid
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Fargull
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After about a five month hiatus, I hoped back on to WOW. Have been playing my 50th level Troll warrior on Spinebreaker and loving my current build. I built the build to generate rage quickly and allow stance movement. Generation of rage is huge and somehow in those five months blizzard managed to actually increase the ability of the warrior to survive in PvP. I am still not the best at solo, which either falls to the Warlock or Mage, but in a group I am frightening. I am dual welding for the most part, but when running instances am moving to sword and board.
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"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
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