1.9 patch notes

[jpark]

I'm currently setup as 27/24, with none of the 'damage' talents. I'm wondering if the spirit buff out of Discipline is worth dropping the 15% mana reduction from holy.  Wouldn't help me much, since I've got 219 spirt and "mana/5s" items up to 21 and a pattern for Truefaith just waiting on mats, but I've had other people asking for it.

Mana regen for the win for priests.  My mana regen per tick is about 80 / 5 seconds.  In my view you can really move from 21 upward.  Mana regen of course is less relevant for quick fights - but is supreme for long fights like Onyxia.  Also, since a lot of priests do not take the time to get the spirit buff - other casters will love you on raids - I have to carry extra water for all the buffing I do.

[Sairon]

For those who wants the upcoming loot spoiled:

http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page1.jpg
http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page2.jpg
http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page3.jpg
http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page4.jpg
http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page5.jpg
http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page6.jpg
http://mammae.org/images/1.9/1.9Loot_page7.jpg

I'm not 100% they're legit, the mace on page 7 seems particular suspecious for example.

[Venkman]

Can I get two stacks please?

Heh. Actually, I couldn't care any less about the conjuring issues. I simply ignore all requests unless they're accompanied with money and I raid with four other Mages (plus two more vendormatics that dispense pre-raid). It'll be nice to conjure 10 (in 1.9), but otherwise, it doesn't bother me.

But I'm also one of those Mages that doesn't have a specific complaint about our abilites in the endgame (PvE). We're fine in those places that require lots of people anyway, since it's not about who tops the damage chart if you're doing your job right. The biggest complaints are those who want us to be "kings of damage" in all environments, even those where being kings of damage will get our paper armor wearing assess handed to us repeatedly.

[Calantus]

The idea of rotations is so that you can indefinately keep X amount of healing on a tank. Using rotations my guild never used innervate (we don't even have an innervate druid), and rarely used mana pots in MC. I can't comment on the validity of it in BWL since I quit my old guild around the BWL days, yadda yadda, rerolled oceania, yadda yadda. In MC though it was great because as long as you had X healers and a tank it didn't matter WTF else you had. I keep seeing people say "you need more dps so your healers don't run out of mana before it dies" and think "WTF? Healers can run out of mana?".

Frankly I've never been a fan of consumables used in static PVE content. Yeah I'll rely on flasks, elixirs, potions, etc if I think they're needed, but I think the point is to get to a point where they aren't needed. If you use a mana pot in a fight there's something wrong IMO. Saying innervates and mana pots take you over the line just doesn't cut it for me.

[Mesozoic]

Penny Arcade Weighs in.

[Merusk]

Ahhh.. that explains the sudden re-explosion of "OMG RAIDS R SUXORZ" posts on the official boards yesterday.  I don't disagree that there need to be a few more 5-man instances, but it is kind of blown out of proportion.

[Dren]

Well raids do suck IMO.  I really do hope they start opening up the end game to the casuals more than they have.  I'm finding it harder to find things for me and my 2 other friends that play casually together to do.  It is very difficult to string together even a 5 person group most of the time and even then it is only for an hour at most.  Try getting anything done with that kind of participation or time.

I understand that we can't get everything by spending as little "time" as we do, but eventually I'd like to start seeing some of the content they are adding in by the heapful.  I had hoped they would make some of the previously difficult to do instances more 5-man friendly so the uber guilds can move on to that next big raid.

Let's face it, those out-of-fashion raids will be very quiet once these others get opened.  Why not tone them down or at least allow scaling of some kind for the smaller groups?  It will keep people like me interested in the game for a longer time. 

As it is now, I'm just putzing around until the new big game comes out. (DDO most likely at this point.)  There is nothing in the new expansion that seems to be targetting me at all.

[Jimbo]

My pig gets a buff, but I take a Nerf in speed and damage...but I can live with it as a hunter.  Can't wait to see what my bear finally gets as a power.

I wish they would just add a ton of 30 min--5 man instances that were chained together and easy to get to, and easy to share.  That way you could have a really long quest, but since it is broken up in 30 min blocks it wouldn't be that big a deal.

[cevik]

The problem with MMOGs is, somewhere down the line, someone mistook time for challenge.  It is not a test of my MMOG skills to see if I can con enough time from my wife to attend the 50 raids it will require for me to get the Robes of Transcendence (10 priests per raid (?), average drop rate is ~20% of the time, so 5 raids for each priests, 50 raids for the robes).

A casual player is not an unskilled player, a hardcore player is not a skilled player (though he may be more PRACTICED, that does not mean he is more skilled, in fact "hardcore" players tend to be less adaptable in a non-standard situation, therefore they are probably LESS skilled, but more stubborn to make up for the lack of skills).  Time spent is not an adequate test of skill, but it is an easy development route.  It's a system that has already been implemented, so it's easy to follow suit when you make your mmog, rather than innovate and create a new and better system.

Of course, the appropriate question for me here is "What is a better 'test of skill' than the current system?"  To be honest I'm glad I have a cop out of "I develop embedded solutions for the Oil and Gas industry, we don't have to worry about game balance!"

[Dren]

Agreed.  I still don't understand the concept that these hardcore players play way more than casuals so we should target them for the content.  Their time played doesn't earn you more profits so why does pure time reap all the awards?

I suggest that players like myself could possibly earn them more profits.  I play about an hour a night on average.  I am very patient, but I do need a little something every other night to make me feel like I'm getting someplace (carrot on a stick anyone?)  The costs to support me are very low and I chew through content very slowly.

I love the idea of the 30 min 5-man instances tied together to make one big quest.  It isn't that I don't have the overall time to dedicate to the game.  I do.  I just can't risk my family life and sanity to spend multiple 5 hour sessions during the week.  Allow me to build my time up gradually towards an end goal.  I'll be satisfied and the cost to support and implement this type of thing should be minimal compared to the 40 man crazy uber instances and BG's.

Pull the older instances down and break them up like this and give us casuals something to shoot for over time.  That doesn't seem like too much to ask. (Hoping some Blizz dev reads this site privately  :-D )

[Merusk]

The way I see it is a series of chicken-or-the-egg problems.

1)   Blizz threw-up that slide at Blizzcon about number of raids each evening. It loudly proclaimed, "Clearly much more than 1% are raiding!"  Of course, it fails to examine that they're doing this because it's the ONLY way to aquire epics.

2)  "Well casual players just don't stay subscribed as long! Look at all the times these 'casuals' have canceled and resubbed. We're catering to the dedicated people who maintain subs."  Well, when you run out of options to advance in a game all about advancement, what point is there to remain subbed?  You come back to check-out new changes.  The "dedicated" players are dedicated for the exact reason Cevik mentioned, it takes 50 freaking raids to get stuff.  That's a long time at one raid a week.

3) "No, casuals just don't want to do anything HARD to get stuff"  Well, the traditional method  of HARD is what? Oh right, Time!

Really, I just don't let it bother me anymore.  It bothered me in EQ, it bothered me in DAOC, now I just don't care.  So long as I'm enjoying myself and having a good time, I'm getting my $15 a month.  Let the e-peeners have their e-peen.. there's plenty of 'H4rdc0r3" players already planning on wandering off to Vanguard, "Where there'll be a real 'challenge*'"   When that happens we'll see the direction WoW takes.

* Yes, challenge once-again meaning time-sink.  I've heard so many people bitch that WOW is, "too easy," and it's, "far to simple for morons to hit 60," and, "so hard to find good players,"  that it's just silly.   WoW, from a gameplay standpoint, is no harder or easier than EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, SWG or any other MMO.. it simply doesn't force you to piss in a jar and poop in a sock to advance to the level cap within a reasonable timeframe.

[Furiously]

I recall something about dungeons that would take 2 weeks to go though from someone's beta boasting. I thought it was stupid at the time. But I'd much rather do "saved status" dungeon every night with a couple friends then raid with 40 people who are all going to fight over loot.

[cevik]

Really, I just don't let it bother me anymore.  It bothered me in EQ, it bothered me in DAOC, now I just don't care.  So long as I'm enjoying myself and having a good time, I'm getting my $15 a month.

This is the truth, I don't really care about the "epics" or whatever.  The 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 bgs are so much fun (since you dont' have to worry about being outclassed gear wise, you can just play) that I will probably spend now until the end of time making new alts and leveling them into the bg range and pvping until I pass out from enjoyment..  PvP For The Win or whatever the cool kids say these days..

[Dren]

Really, I just don't let it bother me anymore.  It bothered me in EQ, it bothered me in DAOC, now I just don't care.  So long as I'm enjoying myself and having a good time, I'm getting my $15 a month.

This is the truth, I don't really care about the "epics" or whatever.  The 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 bgs are so much fun (since you dont' have to worry about being outclassed gear wise, you can just play) that I will probably spend now until the end of time making new alts and leveling them into the bg range and pvping until I pass out from enjoyment..  PvP For The Win or whatever the cool kids say these days..

I agree with that partially.  I do like PvP so that will keep me going for awhile.  I've built up 4 character past level 40 now so I'm trying out all the different races/classes. At some point though, I do want to keep exploring and filling in the so-called lore of the game too.  I hear about all these big dragons and evil boss type characters, but never ever see them or even come close.

I have been throwing myself into the tradeskills too even though you really get no returns from it other than feeling like you are producing something.  That hits a wall too becuase they've tied the really nice patterns/plans/recipes etc to epic type instances too.  Hell, I'm stuck with my blacksmith due to Scholo being my next requirement for swordsmaster.  I can't get anyone interested in helping me with that one either.  Dark Iron?  Yeah that's BRD and absolutely nobody goes there except to get attuned for the MC.

I'm like you guys.  When it gets boring I'll leave.  I'm fine now, but I can see the end coming.  It just seems like it would be in Blizzards best interest to continue to provide a game that gives all playstyles a bone once in a while.  They can churn out the high end epic stuff, but take the older stuff and break it down into casual bite sized chunks for the rest of us too.  I'll never be the first or even the 1000th to accomplish the new stuff and that is fine with me.  I would like to see it at some point though (maybe 100,000,000th?)  I'm pretty patient.

[Fabricated]

Why do MMOG makers always cater to the catasses? It doesn't make financial sense, nor sense in relation to the game itself.

Why the hell do all MMOGs end up making the run from start to level cap a speedbump?

[Cheddar]

Why do MMOG makers always cater to the catasses? It doesn't make financial sense, nor sense in relation to the game itself.

Why the hell do all MMOGs end up making the run from start to level cap a speedbump?

Because we play them.

[Margalis]

Yes, of course it is a self-fullfilling prophecy. At the end-game there is only raiding, so people raid, hence people are raiders. Wow, raids are really popular!

Is the idea that a few people want to accomplish something in a reasonable timeframe really THAT difficult? That's why I've tended to play games like Phantasy Star Online, Resident Evil Online, etc. You can sit down for an hour or two and accomplish something reasonable. It would be as simple as having small raid dungeons broken up into sub-dungeons with safe places to log out. Log on with your buddies, fight to the next safe zone, log out and plan when you can play next.

[Sairon]

It would be as simple as having small raid dungeons broken up into sub-dungeons with safe places to log out. Log on with your buddies, fight to the next safe zone, log out and plan when you can play next.

Isn't it pretty much like that now? After you kill a boss the progress is saved there. There's also a mechanism for making it easier to continue where you left off. If you kill magmadar in MC then core hounds stop respawning, when you kill geddon the fire elemental thingies stops respawning etc. I haven't played WoW since BWL was released but I hear there's very little thrash mobs between the encounters in there, making it even more viable.

[cevik]

Casual Epics?

[Margalis]

Isn't it pretty much like that now? After you kill a boss the progress is saved there. There's also a mechanism for making it easier to continue where you left off. If you kill magmadar in MC then core hounds stop respawning, when you kill geddon the fire elemental thingies stops respawning etc. I haven't played WoW since BWL was released but I hear there's very little thrash mobs between the encounters in there, making it even more viable.

Not when they require large groups of people and restart once a week.  If they rolled over once every 2 weeks and required 5 people then we could talk.

[Dren]

Yes the size requirement of groups is a big deal.  I don't have more than an hour at a time to actually play.  I certainly don't have the time or desire to organize or be organized into a 40 person raid group.  It also never made sense to even try to do this when I knew I had to log within 60 minutes, so why bother?

The whole raiding thing is so far outside what I can be expected to accomplish I do not even attempt it.  Actually, I take that back.  I did try the whole uber guild thing and even went on a few raids.  That's how I developed my understanding that my lifestyle doesn't fit with that playstyle at all.

Hell the easiest epic thing we did still took about an hour total.  That was to kill that Kazzuk or whatever that huge demon is.  30 minutes to organize and get into position.  30 minutes to actually kill that thing (wiped the first time because we didn't kill it before it went beserk.)  Actually, I forgot the 30 minutes after that where people fought over the damn loot and figured out the DKP system.

I'd be happy with this same type of thing taking 5x longer, but broken up into 30-60 minute ACTUAL playtime sessions.  Meaning make it so I'm actually doing something, actually progressing, picking up materials, coins, items along the way.  The idea of 30 minute 5 man instance chunks makes a ton of sense to me.  Hell string it into 10 total hours before you get to the "boss."  I don't care.  I'm at least part of the action and progressing and have something to look forward to each night when I sit down to play.

When you force me to spend half my time waiting around for people to get organized/travel/buff etc., you lost me.  I do not find that an adequate "payment" for "fun."  It makes no sense.

[cevik]

I'd be happy with this same type of thing taking 5x longer, but broken up into 30-60 minute ACTUAL playtime sessions.  Meaning make it so I'm actually doing something, actually progressing, picking up materials, coins, items along the way.  The idea of 30 minute 5 man instance chunks makes a ton of sense to me.  Hell string it into 10 total hours before you get to the "boss."  I don't care.  I'm at least part of the action and progressing and have something to look forward to each night when I sit down to play.

We have, of course, found the crux of the problem.  And we've also found why casual players are less profitable than "hardcore" players.  Developing enough content to fill 10 hours worth of 30 minute solo/5-man sessions, where your time is occupied by the game and not by the meta-game is hard.  Instead, it's much much easier to design 1 or 2 hours worth of game content, then let the "hardcore" players entertain themselves with the meta-game of organizing the 40 people, creating websites, creating spreadsheets and dkp systems, setting up gear pre-requisites, getting everyone to the raid, buffing and rebuffing, etc for the other 8 hours.  Hardcore players require less content because they spend so much time in the minutiae of the meta-game that they don't really play the game at all..

ETA:  Though I am curious what everyone thinks about the casual epic quests in 1.9 that I linked above.  Is that THE solution, a partial solution, not enough, etc.?

[tazelbain]

I just don't how what you ask is feasible. Anything that needs player coordination to suceed is going have significant ramp up time.  People coming late, replacing no show, afks, dicussion of tactics.  Until we lock people to their comp and eveyone joins a hive mind, these sort of logistical issues are always going to be an issue.

That's part of the reason I would like to see them gear things to 2 hours game sessions.  A half hour ramp up to play 2 hours is much more bearable than a half hour ramp up to play 30 min.

CoV has the least requirements for a group and it still can be an upwords of 15 mins to get a full group going.

I know you have real world limitations, but group coordination has real world limitations also.

[Dren]

No, a 5 man team doesn't take much time to organize at all.  It would be worth 30 minutes in my opinion.  Yes, a 40 man team wouldn't make any sense for a 30 minute session.  The 40 man raids can stay with their 2+ hour sessions.  Let the catasses have their "fun."

Cevik, I'd answer your question about the 1.9 solution, but I'm blocked from work.  I'll have to review tonight.

[Sairon]

On the matter of organizing a raid, yes it's very time consuming, especialy to get everyone in place. It depends a lot on with what kind of people you play with as well. Some people have no respect whatsoever and always comes last because there's something they "have to do" and keep 39 people waiting. Something which would go a long way would be a raid summon spell for warlocks without insane soul shard requirements.

Planning, tactics etc are what I consider the fun part of raiding. Of course there's always people whining and taking the back seat, only raiding for the epics.

The 5 man instance sub dugeon thing which you suggest could indeed be a nice addition, as long as it doesn't out shine the 40 man rewards/time. If crafting wasn't so damn useless then it could also be an option for the causals. Gather a shit ton of ingrediences, a little each session, and the slam it all togheter to something sweet.

[Dren]

It seems the hardcore get their newest and best items with each release.  My thought is take the older less shiney items and put those into the casual environment.  I think the casuals would be just fine with getting the table scraps from the hardcore.  Right now we get nothing.

Crafting would be a great diversion if done right, but again they put high restrictions that require hardcore type activities to complete, so casuals get left out of that as well.  Intermix the high end ingredients in those 30 min 5 man's and you'll get a reward over time type craft and that would be adequate.

[Hoax]

I haven't heard it said on the last page so what the hay...

You realize someone will always be left out right?  I mean either that bugs you or it does not.  Should blizzard create more content that fits your niche, possibly and are they overestimating the numbers of the so-called hardcore?  It seems like it.

But no matter what somebody somewhere will be left out, because this is not a single player game.

I think those 1.9 quests look like about as concrete and elegant a step towards catering towards the casual player's desire for lewt as I've seen in EQ or any of its clones.

[Hellinar]

We have, of course, found the crux of the problem.  And we've also found why casual players are less profitable than "hardcore" players.  Developing enough content to fill 10 hours worth of 30 minute solo/5-man sessions, where your time is occupied by the game and not by the meta-game is hard.  Instead, it's much much easier to design 1 or 2 hours worth of game content, then let the "hardcore" players entertain themselves with the meta-game of organizing the 40 people, creating websites, creating spreadsheets and dkp systems, setting up gear pre-requisites, getting everyone to the raid, buffing and rebuffing, etc for the other 8 hours.  Hardcore players require less content because they spend so much time in the minutiae of the meta-game that they don't really play the game at all..

But if you aim your game at the 8hr a week player, rather than the 40 hour a week player, you have 5 times as much income per player hour of content to cover your creation costs. To my mind, Blizzard made a big mistake when they nerfed the Rest system in Beta. At that point, they had the opportunity to say “sorry guys, this game is for the casual crowd not the hardcore”. It was on really bad time to listen to their Beta testers, who almost by definition are hardcore.

Once they had in effect said “this game is meant to be played 40 hours  week"” they lowered the content budget per hour of play to the point where grind is inevitable. If they had left that experience gain cap in place, they could have focussed resources on interesting lower level quests. I don’t think that design decision was driven by profit. Quite the opposite. But by a segment in Blizzard who wanted to design raids like EQ.

[Yegolev]

ETA:  Though I am curious what everyone thinks about the casual epic quests in 1.9 that I linked above.  Is that THE solution, a partial solution, not enough, etc.?

Well, I'll say something stupidly obvious like "there is no single solution to all the ills" as a disclaimer, but this is something that has me SERIOUSLY considering resubbing.  I played in a two-man team with a real-life friend for the most part.  Sure, I was in a guild, we did some guild-type junk, wiped in BFD, midget, broom, whatnot... but most of the time I made a phone call or got a phone call consisting of "You gonna be on tonight?".  It was my undead warrior and his troll rogue against the whole Alliance, or something, anything.  We had lots of fun screwing around in PVE or anyplace where two plucky gnome-haters could grief whitey.  If there was more content like those quests, especially if it allowed us to go "all the way", we would both resub.

At least for a few months.

[Lt.Dan]

But if you aim your game at the 8hr a week player, rather than the 40 hour a week player, you have 5 times as much income per player hour of content to cover your creation costs.

I don't think Income per player hour is a valid metric of return on investment.  I know nothing about Blizzard's cost structure but I suspect the majority of their costs are independent of hours played per week.  Bandwidth yes, but I expect that pales in comparison to running hardware and CS 24/7.  From their point of view, whether players play on average 20 hours a week or 10 hours a week has only a residual impact on free cash flow (and hence covering creation costs).  They still need to run server farms, support them, handle billing etc which all occurs independently of players' time on-line.

Of course if they built the game for 1-2 hour sessions they might have a completely different cost structure, but then they might not have a gazillion subs either.

[Dren]

I don't think we could probably come up with who is more profitable.  None of us have all the information necessary to do it.  One thing we can agree on is that WoW has the most number of casual subs out of anything before or current.  Right?  I'd go so far as to say they have millions of casual players considering I doubt WoW pulled 2 million hardcore MMO players out of the closet they've been hiding in.  I don't think poopsockers are created that quickly.

Assuming this is true, it would seem that some of the bean counters at Blizzard would be looking at the prospect of losing all those subs once a new more casual friendly game comes out (DDO anyone?)  Are they really willing to risk that?

I am predicting they will continue to make attempts at pacifiying the casuals.  Yes, they won't satisfy everyone all the time.  That's obvious.  What isn't obvious is how much will they bend and when will they do it?  I guess this 1.9 patch does it somewhat....I just can't go to the site to read it.

[Hellinar]

But if you aim your game at the 8hr a week player, rather than the 40 hour a week player, you have 5 times as much income per player hour of content to cover your creation costs.

I don't think Income per player hour is a valid metric of return on investment.  I know nothing about Blizzard's cost structure but I suspect the majority of their costs are independent of hours played per week.  Bandwidth yes, but I expect that pales in comparison to running hardware and CS 24/7.  From their point of view, whether players play on average 20 hours a week or 10 hours a week has only a residual impact on free cash flow (and hence covering creation costs).  They still need to run server farms, support them, handle billing etc which all occurs independently of players' time on-line.

Of course if they built the game for 1-2 hour sessions they might have a completely different cost structure, but then they might not have a gazillion subs either.

Return on investment is tied to monthly income, which is the same whether the player is on 32 hours a month or 160 hours a month. But some costs are much lower for the 32 hour a month player. Hardware and bandwidth to some degree. But most of all, you only need to create 32 hours of new content a month to retain them, not 160 hours. It the latter that leads to low quality “timesink” content. But I can’t see making that work without soft capping out the 160 hour a month players. If you allow 160 hours a month of advancement, players will expect and demand that much content too.

[Furiously]

Which begs the question why has no game said. "2 hours a day is all you get sucker!" 

Note - to whoever releases robot jesus. Please do this.

[Sairon]

I'd go so far as to say they have millions of casual players considering I doubt WoW pulled 2 million hardcore MMO players out of the closet they've been hiding in.  I don't think poopsockers are created that quickly.

I think you're wrong here, I think a lot of the people who has had no contact with MMORPGs before turned hardcore fairly fast. Dikus tastes best the first time around, and World of Warcraft can be described as refined heroin in that sense. I know a lot of people who has had no former contact with MMORPGs before WoW, and are still playing it pretty much 24/7. A lot of them were previously hardcore FPS players, but quite a chunk are people who pretty much haven't touched anything but FIFA before.

[Dren]

I recognize that new MMO players could be swept into hardcore play, but do you disagree that at least one million of the 4 million would be considered casual and do not raid or BG?

My feeling is it is over 2 mill, but that is a total blind guess.