CoV PVP

[waylander]

Reposted from the Corpsite for the folks here who don't visit over there.

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Hades-LotD
Official Catass


Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 198

   
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:05 am   

I got in a few hours of PVP last night in CoV. It reminded me a lot of the old DAOC RvsR realm gate/keep fights. Basically each side starts out on a part of the zone, and somewhere in there they meet and duke it out. Since flight powers are in this game it does create a new PVP dimension than what DAOC had and its a lot more fluid than say a Shadowbane type of air combat.

There are missions in each zone, and by completing them the Heroes or Villains get damage, defense, etc type buff effects. The overall goal though is to get some things done so yo can get an Item of Power from the zone to carry back to your base.

So anyway we rolled out with an initial 8 man group and started owning Heroes. Everyone who is a villian is currently underbuffed (as in we got shit for enhancements and other shiney's that make us uber), but the Heroes for the most part are all decked out. Taking out these decked out heroes with underpowered villains was possible, but it became impossible if they had access to a healer. Until villains get more power ups/enhancements, its going to be like that.

The combat itself is much longer than what I experienced in DAOC or SB where fights were over inn 1, 2, 3, gone....spend 30 mins regrouping. Each character seems to have a decent amount of surviability so you have time to react, and there is NO /target, /group target, or /sticky command. At first I thought this would suck, but after seeing it in action it really made PVP combat chaotically fun.

Without the ability to group target or /sticky, PVP lasted a lot longer and guild/group organization was much more important. There ended up being 60 people in the fight, and our 15 person group was able to hold off 2-1 odds fairly regularly. This was possible because we were using vent, coordinating our targets, and coordinating when we advanced and retreated. Even so, it was impossible to have everyone always on the same target because half the time you couldn't find the group target. Our squishies (non tanks) had to fly, hide, retreat, and move around to stay alive and refocusing on the assigned target simply wasn't always possible.

The tactics of snare, hold, mez, focus fire, beat down still apply but it really reminded me of Shadowbane before people discovered the /target command and it had that DAOC RvsR feel to it.

You get reputation points for everyone you kill, and if you die you can be back in the fight in about 1-2 minutes.

I'll attach some screenshots when I get home tonight.

Right now I'd give it a thumbs up.
_________________
Guildmaster, LotD

[Alkiera]

Does the normal autoassist not work in PvP?  Have one person be the target picker, then everyone else targets them, all offensive powers will affect your target's target.

Of course, if someone taunts that one guy, it'll pull him off target, and then every is off target.  Yay, tactics, and depth in combat.

Alkiera

[waylander]

Does the normal autoassist not work in PvP?  Have one person be the target picker, then everyone else targets them, all offensive powers will affect your target's target.

Of course, if someone taunts that one guy, it'll pull him off target, and then every is off target.  Yay, tactics, and depth in combat.

Alkiera

From my understanding the intent of the Dev's was to only have group assist work for PVE.  The LotD beta testers and other beta testers were for a group assist in PVP, but I'm not sure if it made it in or not. Apparently its not in yet or someone would have been using it last night.

[Llava]

Nope, the normal assist does not work for PvP.  I believe I remember reading a developer commenting on that, mentioning that this is intentional.

If it did work, I wonder what would happen if the target chooser was Confused.  His targets are switching around to friendlies, but does that mean people assisting him could hit friendlies too?  I'd imagine not.  But that'd be cool.

[waylander]

Nope, the normal assist does not work for PvP.  I believe I remember reading a developer commenting on that, mentioning that this is intentional.

If it did work, I wonder what would happen if the target chooser was Confused.  His targets are switching around to friendlies, but does that mean people assisting him could hit friendlies too?  I'd imagine not.  But that'd be cool.

yeah when you are confused, your allies appear to be enemies until the confusion wears off. I thought that was pretty neat.

[Hoax]

%#^&^$%$#@%!$#^&@&

Someone tell me how this pvp actually sucks, I dont want to suffer the grind... 

[HaemishM]

%#^&^$%$#@%!$#^&@&

Someone tell me how this pvp actually sucks, I dont want to suffer the grind... 

You answered it yourself. You have to suffer the grind.

[Nevermore]

Do you?  Because all heroes and villains in a PvP zone have their levels equalized.  The only level you have to acheive is the minimum to enter the zone, which for Bloody Bay is all of level 15, iirc. 

[waylander]

Do you?  Because all heroes and villains in a PvP zone have their levels equalized.  The only level you have to acheive is the minimum to enter the zone, which for Bloody Bay is all of level 15, iirc. 

I went to bloody bay at level 15, and got jacked up automatically to level 25. The only real difference in the lowest level zone is that obviously someone higher than 15 and lower than 25 is gonna have about 5 more powers total than I would at level 15.

[HaemishM]

This is the first I've heard of being sidekicked during PVP. That helps.

[Nevermore]

Sidekicked and Exemplared.  If you're level 50 and go to Bloody Bay, you get knocked down to level 25 as well, and lose access to all those higher level powers.  It really does even the playing field quite a bit.

[tazelbain]

> you get knocked down to level 25

If you have done a respec at lvl 50, you probably weren't considering how your build would play at 25 when you rebuilt it. Seems like a minor but significant issue.

[Hoax]

One would figure there are PvP areas you can't access till 35 or something where everyone is 50?

[Llava]

In Warburg, you're dropped down to 38.  That is the highest PvP zone available right now.

Why?

Cause villains only go to level 40 right now.  I'd expect a level 50 zone in the next issue, a couple months from now likely.

About Confuse:
Yeah, I know how Confuse works when it's placed on YOU.  But let's say assist works in PvP, and you're the team's Main Assist, and someone confuses you.  Suddenly your target is switched to your team's Defender.  Would everyone in your team start beating down your Defender, because they're assisting you?  That, in addition to trying to avoid the "omg 20 heroes all just shot me and I died in .2 seconds, NOT FUN" situation, may be a reason for assist not to work in PvP.

[Nevermore]

One would figure there are PvP areas you can't access till 35 or something where everyone is 50?

Minimum level to get into Siren's Call is 20, minimum level to get into Warburg is 30.  Warburg is my least favorite of the PvP zones since it's a complete free-for-all instead of Hero vs Villain, though.

[Nebu]

Powerful abilities in PvE are great and help the player feel like a superhero.  I have my doubts that these same powers will translate well to PvP.  Superhero fights should be epic battles... being able to 1-shot a superhero just seems wrong to me.

I'll keep reading to see what the more dedicated CoH/CoV people have to say, but as a pvp enthusiast I'm still doubtful this will work as they had hoped.  PvP people are devious and will rapidly find the best way to exploit any game mechanic to their advantage.

[Llava]

I do not believe one-shots will be possible.

Nova, even before Enhancement Diversification, couldn't one-shot my Scrapper.

Assassin Strikes used to be able to one-shot when combined with Build Up and 5 damage SOs.  That may or may not still be the case post ED.  I know that the devs have openly stated that they do not intend to allow one-shots in PvP, so they may impose a cap on damage for one hit (basically TargetsMaximumHealth-1=DamageCap).

One shots are already exceedingly rare.

Also notable is the fact that players don't herd as easily as NPCs.  You could gather 40 enemies together and hit Nova in PvE to wipe them all out.  In most cases for PvP, hitting 3 people with Nova will be a good shot- that being said, I'm sure some people will exploit their base's geography to lure enemies into traps... which is fine with me, strategic use of the environment is good.

I'm looking forward to base raids.  I think there's some good potential for some hard fought team battles.

[Llava]

Found this on the main boards, thought people here might want to read

I've been trolling Siren's Call looking for some PvP...finally got a bounty...and I started stalking the Stalker. He had a patrol missoin in SC so when he landed to make a call...I jumped him. But he was a flyier and got away. I continued to track him. Apparently when you're the bounty in SC...the map tracks your location...that sucks if it's you.

He finally touched down again with next to a Brute teammate, I pounced. Some very intereting things resulted. I'll try and show number for people like Arcana to tell us what they mean if they so desire.

First off, I'm ED'd in the usual way. All SO's in the +1,+2 variety.

Initially, i could not hit the stalker with my first three attacks....I hit an insight, but he got AS off on me before I could finally hit. He was EM as his attacks did split smash/en. Here's what my log showed.

Smash...48.07
Energy...20.6
Critical...ALL energy...412.09 (I guess they do it like Shadow Maul's crits).

His AS also knocked off Stealth and Focuses Senses at the same time.

The Brute hits me with a Smite. 11.14 smash 34.85 neg and I am immediately taunted. It's the next line in the text.

My ensueing shadow punch does 18.79 and 41.08 on the Brute.

I hit the Brute with SL for 41.98...

more fighting...I'm noticing that after SP and Smite from the Brute, I'm getting Taunt messages. The Brute apparenlty has a punchvoke in PvP...and yet Tankers don't?

I get hit with a Maul from the Brute. The first pair hits me for 13.87..taunt message shows up after this first pair...the next three hit me for 13.43? In between, I get hit by the Stalker for about 52 combined.


I fire SD and hit both of them.....it hits stalker for 42.83 and brute for 41.98.

My next smite on the Brute goes for 20.57 and 95.62.
My next shadow punch does 21.79 and 47.65

We keep fighting. I see I'm getting hit for 15 points and my SS gets knocked off. The Stalker is brawling me?

The stalker placates me and it tells me that I "cannot target La Noire"..good thing.

Fortunately I manage to get them both in repeated Mauls...but since the brute is auto taunting, he's taking all the heavy damage. The brute pops about 4 respites through the 30 second fight and then flees. Even with Sprint and Quickenss, my SP doesn't seem to be faster than his...oh...i've got endo rdx in mine. Neither one of them go down and I'm at about half health. The Brute was a smite away from death....the Stalker flees with half health. ED saved their butts.

thought I'd share.

I believe the Brute taunt thing is a bug.  I have no idea how this guy survived so long against a Brute and a Stalker.

[Typhon]

He's an SR scrapper and neither the brute nor stalker is high enough level to have SO accuracy enhs, so they weren't hitting him (other then the ones that he recorded).  They most likely didn't have the fun that he did, course this will change once they get access to SO and the SR gets his ass kicked in every fight.  SR and Ice are kind of broken/difficult to balance, Cryptic is still struggling with it (I only know because I have an SR scrapper).

[Nebu]

Necro post!

CoV has been out a while now.  Since I really only play games for the PvP anymore, I'd like to kno wwhat the current pvp impressions are.  Any new thoughts to build on those above?  I want to like this game, but see so many ways that the PvP could have serious balance issues.

Thanks

[Xanthippe]

My biggest problem is that once I get a toon big enough to pvp with, that's all I want to do.

It's very fun.  I've pvp'ed mostly with my 25 plant/thorn dom in Siren's, and some in Bloody Bay with my 19 ice/cold corr.  Once I pvp'ed in Sirens with my 32 fire/fire blaster just to see how the other half lives (the other half being the one with access to the stuff you can buy - usually heroes).

Stalker/dom duos can be brutally efficient in taking out one or two (or three).  I prefer the 8vs8 battles though.

The first pvp zone is Bloody Bay.  The idea behind the mission is to get ore from 6 meteorites around the zone and extract it with a special power doodad that you get from Evil Scientist.  The meteorites are guarded by Shivans (big gooey transparent monsters).  Also, once you get an ore, you glow, thereby advertising to all you are carrying.

If you defeat a foe in pvp who is carrying ore, you get their ore.

Once you have all 6 pieces, you have to go defeat all of the guns at a firebase (there are several around the map).  Once all of the guns are defeated, you use an ore converter to make the ore into whatever the things is that Evil Scientist wants.  Meanwhile, heroes are trying to fuck you up, steal your ore, spit on your dead body, etc.

Siren's Call is different.  There, battle hotspots break out between Arachnos and Longbow forces.  Players can help out in these battles.  When one side defeats the other side enough times, control of the zone goes to the victor.  The victor can then purchase special powers - IR goggles to see stealthed players, jetpacks to fly around, web grenades to immobilize enemies, and so on.

Meanwhile there are bounties offered for enemies, and one enemy will be targeted to you with his location shown on your minimap.

Collect 6000 bounty and you can cash it out for an SO.  Don't leave the zone or log, though, because the bounty collected will disappear and go back to 0.

Warburg is an open pvp zone.  I haven't spent much time there. 

I have no experience yet with base raids.

[Nebu]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I've been clinging to DAoC for years just because I couldn't find a better PvP experience.  I loved Planetside, but it got old too quickly.  Then there's shadowbane...

What are the incentives to PvP?  Is there enough to keep you interested for a while or does it ultimately become like the FPS experience?  I mean... it's a ball the first week, but quickly becomes "been there, done that". 

I'm on the verge of resubbing... I'm just not sure it will hold me more than a month or two.

[Glazius]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I've been clinging to DAoC for years just because I couldn't find a better PvP experience.  I loved Planetside, but it got old too quickly.  Then there's shadowbane...

What are the incentives to PvP?  Is there enough to keep you interested for a while or does it ultimately become like the FPS experience?  I mean... it's a ball the first week, but quickly becomes "been there, done that". 

I'm on the verge of resubbing... I'm just not sure it will hold me more than a month or two.

XP in a PvP zone gets a 10% boost. You can't XP off players, but in places like Siren's Call you can get it off the NPCs fighting at the hotspots. Running the PvE missions in a PvP zone will usually yield a piece of 'special salvage', which is most useful in making base defenses. It's probably not useful outside of the big supergroups, though. Having another player kill you doesn't incur debt, though if they hold you for Arachnos/Longbow to finish you off it's still normal.

Bloody Bay up until 25 you can run PvE missions to buff your side/debuff the other side in a zone. Siren's Call up until 30 you can run PvE missions, mostly for salvage though I think they may slightly affect the victory bar, and I haven't stepped in Warburg yet so I don't know what's going on there. But with the meteor pieces in Bloody Bay you can summon one of the monsters there to do your bidding; with enough victories in Siren's Call, you can buy "arena temp" powers that work outside of the arena; and if you can escort some NPCs through Warburg you can send a missile up into LEO and use its control codes to bring it crashing down at an opportune time, doing severe end drain/debuff/ally buffing.

However, for actual impressions you'll want to talk to someone else...

--GF

[ClydeJr]

I've only PvPed with a stalker through Bloody Bay and Siren's Call. I haven't been to Warburg yet.

Almost everytime I went into Bloody Bay, there was 1-2 groups of heroes right in front of the villain base. They always seemed to be better organized than any group of villains. A big problem was that the villain side usually consisted of a half-full pickup group and about 5 solo stalkers. Things might have changed now that more people are leveling up but it always seemed that the fight in Bloody Bay was right outside the villain base.

My biggest problem was that so many people could see me even though I had Hide. Any perception power renders Hide useless so whenever I tried to stalk someone, they would either shoot me or run away. Scrappers and tankers were an impossible kill for me unless they were afk or seriously hurt. Squishies were easier but were still tough. A smart squishy would just try to run (or even better fly) after you use AS. All you have to do is stay out of melee range and I can't hurt you. I need to pop several rages to be able to oneshot someone. Getting in the middle of a big battle is usually fruitless and often suicide. So many aura and ground target powers can interrupt an AS. All the AoEs can knock you out of hide even though it gives good AoE protection. If I try to scrap, I'll die.

In Siren's Call, its pretty much the same thing. I'll see teams of heroes working together, but on the villain side, I just see solos or duos running around. Those hero groups are often helping out in hotspot battles so the heroes are usually winning. I spend most of my time stalking someone, waiting for them to either get too far from their friends or get distracted during a battle. That's when I usually move in an try for the kill. Even then, the big thing is I have to kill fast. Now that I'm higher level, I can use my AS followed by an Energy Transfer (powerful attack that suck some of my own health). Combine those with a build and I can take out most squishies and put a hurt on scrappers. Tankers are still a pain.

[Glazius]

My biggest problem was that so many people could see me even though I had Hide. Any perception power renders Hide useless so whenever I tried to stalk someone, they would either shoot me or run away.

Apropos of nothing:

I believe doing a patrol mission (run around, click on phone boxes to report back) will give you a temp power for 30 minutes of 'combat invisibility', which stacks with Hide to offset Perception.

Or is that just in Siren's Call?

--GF

[Xanthippe]

There's a stealthy power in Bloody Bay also, but it's lower level and turns off if you attack anything.  I believe it's given upon completion of the first mission.

[Llava]

Generally, Stalkers who want to actually be hidden need to pick up some additional stealth from the Concealment pool.

But even with that, it's not that hard to overcome stealth. Run a +Perception power, Tactics, and pop an Insight.

You'd need... let's see... Grant Invisibility put on you by someone else, Stealth, Hide, and probably that Hyper Stealth temp power mentioned above to overcome that.

[Der Helm]

Generally, Stalkers who want to actually be hidden need to pick up some additional stealth from the Concealment pool.

But even with that, it's not that hard to overcome stealth. Run a +Perception power, Tactics, and pop an Insight.

You'd need... let's see... Grant Invisibility put on you by someone else, Stealth, Hide, and probably that Hyper Stealth temp power mentioned above to overcome that.

What the ...

Stealther are not able to gank everyone ?

OMG I quit !!1!1!

[ClydeJr]

The whole perception vs. stealth battle is a big topic over in the stalker forum. One on hand, we understand that getting one or two shotted from some guy you never saw sucks. However, stalker don't want their defining ability (attacking from stealth) to be nullified easily. Imagine the outcry if there was some power anyone could take that would force blasters to only attack at melee range. For me, the Hide+Stealth combo is enough. Most people are not going to have enough perception to see me, and if they can, its only temporary. If things get real hairy, I've got the temp stealth powers from Bloody Bay and Siren's Call which I can pop on for a quick escape.

[Valmorian]

Imagine the outcry if there was some power anyone could take that would force blasters to only attack at melee range.

Not really comparable, as the "see through stealth" of perception doesn't prevent stalkers from making AS attacks.  It just gives players warning so they can try and DO something about it.

[Piperfan]

Imagine the outcry if there was some power anyone could take that would force blasters to only attack at melee range.

Not really comparable, as the "see through stealth" of perception doesn't prevent stalkers from making AS attacks.  It just gives players warning so they can try and DO something about it.

It is the same because "forcing blasters into melee range" doesn't prevent blasters from making attacks. It just gives melee players the ability to DO something about it.

[Nevermore]

"forcing blasters into melee range"

You mean like Teleport Foe?

[Glazius]

"forcing blasters into melee range"

You mean like Teleport Foe?

Yea, the boards are very incandescent about Teleport Foe, too.

--GF

[Valmorian]

Imagine the outcry if there was some power anyone could take that would force blasters to only attack at melee range.

Not really comparable, as the "see through stealth" of perception doesn't prevent stalkers from making AS attacks.  It just gives players warning so they can try and DO something about it.

It is the same because "forcing blasters into melee range" doesn't prevent blasters from making attacks. It just gives melee players the ability to DO something about it.

Um, except "forcing blasters into melee range" isn't what ClydeJr said.  He said "make it so that blasters could only attack at melee range".  Not the same thing.  To do THAT, you would actually have to remove their entire primary line.  That's a lot different than a reduced effectiveness on a single power.

[Typhon]

Having played a stalker a little in beta I'd have to say that if you didn't get AS off, you were in a less-then-50% situation.  Unless it's changed, if you aren't hidden you can't get AS off.  Which means that if someone can see you, they can/should attack, which detoggles hide, and then you can't get AS off.

Probably a better comparison would be a power which anyone can choose that doesn't allow a blaster to attack at range. I think this is the way that stealth works, but I may be thinking of invisibility.  Either way, there is a pickable-by-anyone power in the game which makes it so that blasters can't attack from range (can't attack what you can't see)... unless the blaster takes an additional power himself, which is likely due to the need to protect themselves against stealthers... where am I going with this?