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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Dungeons & Dragon Online  |  Topic: Combat mechanics: block, dodge, melee, missile 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Combat mechanics: block, dodge, melee, missile  (Read 4823 times)
Xilren's Twin
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on: October 12, 2005, 04:39:32 PM

This is really the part of the game im having the hardest time deciding if I like or not.† Right clicking like a mad hatter makes me feel like im playing a bizzare diablo clone and not D&D like at all.† But, being able to dodge and block attacks I do like.† It's just a weird combination of action elements and underlying it is the same D20 roll we're all familar with.† That being said, when I first logged in my used my hot key for auto attack and didn't use the mouse to swing at all, and that felt way to much like eq combat.  If you want people mouse clicking to attack, why have auto attack at all.

Personally, if I were designing in a vacuum i'd want the combat to be slower paced and more tactical so you can better utilize your skills/spells/feats, weapons ranges, cover blocking etc etc.† Or to put it another way, my wizard was in melee combat way way too much b/c of combat pace.† Thus, the only solid way I can see to solo level a wizard is crossbow/bow and constant run and shoot, which Im hoping is not the ideal.† But, since you can attack while moving but not cast spells using a bow is simply a better choice.† This may change at higher levels when the spells are more, dramatic in effect, but at lvls 1-4?  This is one reason I rolled up a cleric; much easier to play a better armed and armored fighter with healing skills.

From reading the patch notes I know this wasn't always the case.† Perhaps you should be able to melee combat while moving, but not shoot missle weapons...

Xilren
PS Enough crates and barrels please
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 04:41:41 PM by Xilren's Twin »

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
schild
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Reply #1 on: October 12, 2005, 05:26:21 PM

One of the things that really bothers me is the animations. I don't think I'd need to attack and block near as often if the animations were correctly in sync and smooth. I'm gonna give them time on this one.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #2 on: October 13, 2005, 01:09:13 PM

Ok, after full group run through several quests, including some set to elite, i'd say the combat pace DEFINATELY needs slowing down.  With 6 pc's and 3-9 mobs battling, there was signifcant lag burst, jump movement, and general pain in the butt targetting.  Plus, whatever the aggro scheme is it seems hard to get a mobs attention off of it's initial focus so we eneded up chasing mobs all over the place trying to keep the thief/wiz from being in melee. On the plus side, only 1 or 2 deaths in 2.5 hours which with rez shrines are not a big deal, but overall it was just way too hectic for the flavor of D&D.

Part of it is lack of effective crowd control, not so much lack of roots/mez/stuns, but really positioning  i.e. lots of movement in moment to moment combat.  It's chaotic, which while that keeps everyone actively engaged, is much tougher to "manage" the battle so it feels very actiony.  Now, most of the battles we did were outdoors, so perhaps in tighter confines it's not so glaring.

Still had fun though, so don't read this as a complain so much as what I would consider "ways to improve".

Other miscellaneous notes from last night:
Quest rewards; we did some elite quests and still only got like completion rewards of 200 - 300 exp points and no loot even when wading through CR9-11 mobs with our group of level 2 and 3s.  Way way too low.  And one of the quests, Archer Point Defense, had absolutely no loot at all inside or reward.  There are changing quest rewards with the new update so we shall see.

Loot:  when you loot a chest, it apparently assigns loot owners based radnom selection from group which is fine, but shouldn't money be at least be divisible numerically?  It's being treated an item i.e. "23 gold pieces"

Poison: oh god I hate spiders  At one point last night I had 0 strength

Xilren


"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Sky
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Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 08:59:25 AM

One thing they changed a few weeks back that I didn't like was that you now have to face your target. My lil dorf used to do these great jumping spin moves between opponents and it's currently way more eqish/diabloish, which I imagine will make that crowd happy, though I don't care for either much.

As I've been saying, I haven't had much time for gaming, but I was also slowed by the state of the ddo thief gaming. It has a lot of potential, but it's still falling pretty far short.

Re: quest rewards: that got tweaked a while ago and levelling went into the shitter (imo). Mmog 101, they always screw you on exp gains (goddamned PS even).

HaemishM
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Reply #4 on: October 14, 2005, 02:23:37 PM

I won't be able to play again for about a week or two (ok maybe at lunch when I go back to work) but here were my first impressions.

Combat REALLY needs slowing down. It feels way too in between too fast and too slow. I don't mind the right click to attack, but again, why use an auto attack? D&D is a turn-based system, and so far as I can tell, there is no combat outside of instances. Why isn't the combat more turn-based? Are they really worried about the Diablo Monkey crowd (large as that crowd is)? I hate Diablo, so there's my prejudice out there from the get go, laying on the glass. Combat needs to be more strategic than it is now. 

UI needs major work, which is what I expect from an Alpha.

Yeah, enough with the crates and barrels. I didn't like it in NWN, I don't like it in this one. I feel like most of my solo time in an instance is dedicated to busting barrels.

The thief is ALMOST there. The spot traps stuff is cool. Sneaking... not so much. It doesn't feel right. I'll have to play more to get more specific.

The time it takes to get from level 1 to level 2 is WAY too long. The current MMOG crowd is much more used to more frequent dings. Yes, it's Pavlovian, but them's the breaks.

Xilren's Twin
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Reply #5 on: October 14, 2005, 03:38:01 PM

Combat REALLY needs slowing down.

UI needs major work, which is what I expect from an Alpha.

Yeah, enough with the crates and barrels.

The time it takes to get from level 1 to level 2 is WAY too long. The current MMOG crowd is much more used to more frequent dings. Yes, it's Pavlovian, but them's the breaks.
The barrels/crate annoy me b/c so many of them are trapped, but that also where a signifcant chunk of loot comes from unless your quest has chests in it.  We did get some good loot from the "rescue the boat crew" quest but thats bc there were tons of chest on that one.

As to traps and such; today I ran into a trap I detected, but had no way to avoid.  Found the control box but being a cleric, could do nothing with it.  That stunk.  But on the plus side, i killed an ogre by luring him into a flame trap...

Good news; the new exp rewards after the update are much better.  Did one medium CR2 quest and got 4000 exp plus and item.  Did a CR1 quest and got 1400 and a breastplate.  Not bad at all.

That being said, I think they are going to have to go out of their way to point of the differences in leveling in DDO vs other games.  Reason being, there's only 10 levels period.  There current attempt at action points sort of as in between mini levels you can earn are better than nothing, but there just not much "ding" in it.  This may not be a bad thing if they flesh out the game some more so it's not just combat questing for exp.  Crafting, housing, social aspects, exploring; right now there isn't any..  I know, it's alpha, but I don't know what there plans are for stuff beyond quests.  There's like 130 quests in there now, some of them are quite good, but still, where's the hooks and replayability?

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Calandryll
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Reply #6 on: October 14, 2005, 04:47:24 PM

That being said, I think they are going to have to go out of their way to point of the differences in leveling in DDO vs other games.† Reason being, there's only 10 levels period.† There current attempt at action points sort of as in between mini levels you can earn are better than nothing, but there just not much "ding" in it.
This is actually one of our major communication points. You are correct, if we don't make it clear to players before they purchase and people log in expecting a typical MMOG experience we're setting them up for disappointment. Even things like being unable to regain hit points just by resting in the middle of the dungeon will cause distress if we don't communicate it clearly. That's part of my goal with the Alpha...to help understand the best way to communicate some of these things. Itís easy for us to understand because we're so close to the game. But seeing it from someone elseís perspective is extremely helpful.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 04:49:44 PM by Calandryll »
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #7 on: October 14, 2005, 09:47:13 PM

This is actually one of our major communication points. You are correct, if we don't make it clear to players before they purchase and people log in expecting a typical MMOG experience we're setting them up for disappointment. Even things like being unable to regain hit points just by resting in the middle of the dungeon will cause distress if we don't communicate it clearly. That's part of my goal with the Alpha...to help understand the best way to communicate some of these things. Itís easy for us to understand because we're so close to the game. But seeing it from someone elseís perspective is extremely helpful.

Im going to write up something on the alpha boards on this subject, but in truth the above point succeeds or fails based on what the overall design vision is of the game.  And to be honest I;m not real clear where you want to take it.  Is the D&D license just the ruleset and name recognition for a fairly typical MMORPG, or is there an actual goal to try and get closer to pen and paper D&D gaming?

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
HaemishM
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Reply #8 on: October 14, 2005, 11:08:33 PM

or is there an actual goal to try and get closer to pen and paper D&D gaming?

This is going to be a tough sell the way the game is now. Hell, it'll be a tough sell in general. I would wager that the demographics on WoW have a higher percentage of people who have played Diablo than pen and paper D&D. But that also begs the question of what kind of audience do they want? Do they want WoW numbers, or will they be satisfied/profitable with DAoC or CoH numbers?

How obvious in the current combat is positioning? Slow it down a bit and the modifiers will become more apparent, but right now, I can't track them. I do like the addition of the little pop up 20-sided die, though.

The mini-dings are going to be a hard sell as well. It just doesn't feel dingy enough.

But I will say that it's a lot better package than Wish was at this stage of the development. For what that's worth.

Signe
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Reply #9 on: October 19, 2005, 12:58:19 PM

I didn't play very long, but it was fun.  It sort of reminded me of an old fashioned D&D sort of crpg, which was nice.  I was dissappointed in the lack of nose choices in character creation, but I'm sure there will be hundreds of choices eventually.  Has anyone actually done some grouping?  When you do, do you use TS?  I find the sort of font they use in this game to be difficult to read, so I never look at it.  I don't think there's a way to change it or increase/decrease the size, is there? 

I know I post nonsense, but I've not played long enough to have anything significant to say.

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Samwise
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Reply #10 on: October 20, 2005, 01:06:16 PM

I think Action Points are very neat.

Empty barrels and crates everywhere aren't quite as neat.  Cut it down to about a fifth as many barrels and make them five times as likely to have treasure and I'll be a happy camper.

I also want some trapped/locked chests.  I assume there will be some in higher level quests, but I'm about halfway to second level and all of the chests I've opened have been utterly harmless.  I haven't gotten to use Disable Device even once yet.   :-(

Combat is a little confusing.† It seems like I get to attack about five times as often as my opponents, which doesn't seem right.† Am I getting one "real" attack in the midst of all that furious clicking and the rest is just animation?† (I'm using a rapier, which seems like it might have something to do with it; when I was using a staff there wasn't nearly as much mad flailing.)† Making it a bit slower and/or strategic wouldn't suck.† I also can't quite figure out whether sneak attacks work like they do in D&D, though I haven't had many opportunities to try them since most of the opponents in the newbie quests are things that are immune to sneak attacks (booo).

I LOVE the spot and search mechanism.† The way that secret doors and traps light up is awesome, and I like the angle of having your Spot check give you hints as to where to look so you don't have to comb every square inch.† (I might have to incorporate that into my PnP games, in fact.)† Looking forward to trying this in a group.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2005, 01:08:52 PM by Samwise »

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Signe
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Reply #11 on: October 20, 2005, 01:09:28 PM

Those are exactly some of the things that make me feel some love and remind me of those nice skill based crpgs, especially the action points.

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Shockeye
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Reply #12 on: October 22, 2005, 12:36:03 PM

I found it interesting how I was advised to switch weapons when fighting skeletons or zombies.
Signe
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Reply #13 on: October 22, 2005, 01:57:27 PM

Also, I found there is a HUGE advantage to starting out with a ranged weapon, at least at level 1.  I was able to kill quite a few attacking critters before they made it to melee range. 

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Reply #14 on: October 22, 2005, 02:15:06 PM

Also, I found there is a HUGE advantage to starting out with a ranged weapon, at least at level 1.  I was able to kill quite a few attacking critters before they made it to melee range. 

I have a bow but I was only able to hit a few things before they got to me. I seem to be using my melee weapon plenty.
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Reply #15 on: October 22, 2005, 02:18:53 PM

One thing I found is that you need to click on the mob if you want to get any distance.  Using the key to select your target is woefully short of anything useful.  By the time it works, the mob is almost on you and you get probably no more than 1 shot from a ranged weapon or spell.  I hope they fix this as it's terribly annoying for someone who uses keys more than mouse.

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