Thomas Haden Church and Topher Grace to be Spiderman villians.

[Velorath]

What?? How can you dislike Carnage?  He's a crazy motherfucker who just wants to kill!  He's the single most pure villain there is.  He's the absolutely standard by-the-book serial killer, given far, far more power than any human, let alone any sociopath, has a right to have.  And best of all, he never, ever has a crisis of morality.

That's the problem, he's a one-note character that I can only imagine was created because they wanted to water Venom down into an anti-hero rather than a villain.

[Llava]

I guess I view it differently.  To me he's probably the most obviously evil character Spider-Man has ever had to deal with.  He's the evil that even other evils want to bring down.  And he's made most dangerous by the fact that he has no real motive, other than to kill and keep killing.  Usually Spider-Man villains are in it for the money (Rhino, Scorpion, Electro) or power (Kingpin).  Those first three are amoral, certainly, and greedy, but I don't know that I'd call them flat out evil.  Carnage, though?  That guy's fucking evil.

But I guess I do have to agree with the one-note analysis somewhat, because I still feel he would've been best served by only having one run.  Have him go nuts, kill a few important people, and let Venom murder him.  That would've been better than "This guy has killed dozens and dozens of people!  We better lock him up really good this time!"

What was especially stupid was his escape in Maximum Carnage, when they were saying that he had to be cut to release the symbiote and become Carnage again.  So he manages to maneuver the situation to cut himself but, uh, couldn't he have just bitten his tongue or something?

[Ironwood]

Oh God.

[Velorath]

I guess I view it differently.  To me he's probably the most obviously evil character Spider-Man has ever had to deal with.  He's the evil that even other evils want to bring down.  And he's made most dangerous by the fact that he has no real motive, other than to kill and keep killing.  Usually Spider-Man villains are in it for the money (Rhino, Scorpion, Electro) or power (Kingpin).  Those first three are amoral, certainly, and greedy, but I don't know that I'd call them flat out evil.  Carnage, though?  That guy's fucking evil.

But I guess I do have to agree with the one-note analysis somewhat, because I still feel he would've been best served by only having one run.  Have him go nuts, kill a few important people, and let Venom murder him.  That would've been better than "This guy has killed dozens and dozens of people!  We better lock him up really good this time!"

What was especially stupid was his escape in Maximum Carnage, when they were saying that he had to be cut to release the symbiote and become Carnage again.  So he manages to maneuver the situation to cut himself but, uh, couldn't he have just bitten his tongue or something?

I'd say Norman Osborne is just as evil and more interesting although he was still dead when Carnage was created.  Vermin was pulling women off the street and eating them (seriously, for those who've never read Kraven's Last Hunt, it's one of the only Spider-man stories you'll ever need to read).  Doc Ock and the Vulture are both pretty cold blooded, and have both been shown to brutally kill people with no hesitation.  Even Tombstone is pretty evil (I love that issue in jail where he beats Robbie's friend Bruiser to death).

[Hanzii]

If Carnage and Venom is ever in a Spiderman movie, they should just make the whole thing animated and have Rob Liefield be art director...






... some things just don't belong in comics (or movies based on comics).

[Big Gulp]

I guess I view it differently.  To me he's probably the most obviously evil character Spider-Man has ever had to deal with. 

It's not real evil.  It's over the top, silly, cartoon evil.  Real evil is stunningly banal.  You want to see a truly evil character?  Rent Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer.

[stray]

Heh, I happened to find Henry's friend more evil than Henry was. But yeah, good choice.

[Llava]

Vulture, Doc Ock and Tombstone are cold blooded, but they have motivations other than a desire to kill.  Not familiar with Vermin, and I would agree about Norman Osborne but, as you said, he was already dead.

That's the thing with the "unreasonably evil" characters.  You have to kill them off and do it quickly.  And they have to leave a mark that makes them memorable, so that they haunt the hero.

But they mishandled Carnage on several counts.  For one, Spider-Man already dealt with exactly what Carnage SHOULD have been in the Green Goblin.  Green Goblin shows up, kills Gwen Stacy, dies.  Horrible, haunting, memorable, a classic story.

You can't just repeat the same damn story, though.  So I guess that's where Carnage really failed.  They couldn't repeat the Green Goblin story so they didn't know what to do with him.  Instead, they just threw him in jail for safe-keeping until they came up with a better story later.  Then, for whatever reason, they kept breaking him out without any idea of what they wanted to accomplish by doing so.

But if the Green Goblin hadn't come around, Carnage might very well have ended up in his shoes, killing Gwen Stacy or someone else important to Peter just before he died.

[Evil Elvis]

I liked the symbiote costume thing.  For one, even though the red and blue costume is symbolic, the black and white was just cool.  I also liked how the suit made it's own webbing and could mimic clothing, which made the whole quick-change-into-super-hero thing flow easier for me.

Having it try to bond with PP, and then latching onto another person angry and obsessed with him was done well enough, and was a new twist that I hadn't seen before.  I liked that Brock gained intimate knowledge of parker/spider-man throught he suit, and gloated over the power he had on parker.   

It didn't get bad until afterwards when Marvel decided to milk it's new cash cow.  The stupid crazy-mouthed venom shit was the beginning of the end of anything worthwhile there, and that whole carnage thing pretty much got me to stop reading spider-man stuff.

If they did it right, I don't see why they couldn't make a great story involving the symbiote suit.  Then again, it is Hollywood.

[Sky]

It didn't get bad until afterwards when Marvel decided to milk it's new cash cow.  The stupid crazy-mouthed venom shit was the beginning of the end of anything worthwhile there, and that whole carnage thing pretty much got me to stop reading spider-man stuff.

I agree with what you said. I didn't quite make it to Carnage, stopped reading just before that.

If they did it right, I don't see why they couldn't make a great story involving the symbiote suit.  Then again, it is Hollywood.

Maybe Venom could be Johnny Knoxville or the Stiffler kid.

[Yegolev]

Maybe Venom could be Johnny Knoxville or the Stiffler kid.

Best thing on page three.  Venom was explainable, the derivatives were dumb.  I blame Reed Richards.

[Sky]

I blame Reed Richards.

I'm literally afraid to watch the FF movie. The FF were one of my subscriptions as a kid. (FF, X-Men, Defenders, and later Alpha Flight/New Defenders were the core of my subs).

[HaemishM]

What?? How can you dislike Carnage?  He's a crazy motherfucker who just wants to kill!  He's the single most pure villain there is.  He's the absolutely standard by-the-book serial killer, given far, far more power than any human, let alone any sociopath, has a right to have.  And best of all, he never, ever has a crisis of morality.

Exactly. He has no pathos, no drama, nothing I can remotely sympathize with, or even hate. He is a one-note cardboard cutout of a villain, made ULTRAVIOLENT because that's what the cool kids like or something. Serial killers are interesting dramatically speaking because of the duality they represent. On the outside, they are calm, quiet, average guy types that you'd never notice, but inside they have this boiling storm of hate that erupts into violence periodically. There is drama in that.

Some crazy fucker gets an alien suit and goes on to kill more people? There's no surprise there. Marvel's attempts to make Venom some kind of anti-hero was even more retarded.

EDIT: And now that I've seen other people talk about it, Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. That's real evil, the evil that can be dramatized well.

Now, you can have totally, one-note evil be interesting, but not just as some ultraviolent tasmanian devil. Galactus is that kind of evil, an uncaring, all-powerful evil that does what he does for survival, but what he does is so callous and unfeeling that it's hard to sympathize with it. Until it is shown to be facing its own mortality. Or until you see it as a symbol of Reed Richard's ultimate nemesis, the ultimate extension of human augmentation into godhead through science, but without any morality, any ethics dictating what can and can't be done. Not to mention the great pathos you can achieve when you start playing Galactus off of his heralds.

But really, Carnage is just a bloody, unfunny version of the Tasmanian Devil.

[stray]

So Galactus is Richards' nemesis now? When did this happen (honest question)?

Hopefully Galactus consistently kicks the shit out of him.

And what happened to Dr. Doom and the Silver Surfer in all of this?

[HaemishM]

Dr. Doom is stil his arch nemesis. But I think Galactus is up there.

[Johny Cee]

I'm not sure I feel comfortable relagating Peter Parker issues to "angst".

The draw of the Spiderman/Parker character has always been that he's a relatively average guy that has to deal with average problems that are exacerbated by being Spiderman.  Though the points are sometimes beaten home with a giant, obvious cudgel (Uncle Ben dying to the guy Parker let's go) it's still true.  If Parker uses his gifts for profit,  he can't use them to help people.

When you look at the rest of the major superheroes....  

Batman and Ironman are fucking loaded.  Captain America and Superman are boyscouts with stable incomes/paid to be superheroes and no family issues.  The X-men are off in silly allegory land.  The Fantastic Four is loaded as a whole.

In making the noble choice,  Parker has to deal with the shit that means to his real life.  Patrolling as Spiderman means he can't hold down a regular job,  his grades are hurt, etc.  All I can say is that the Daily Planet must have a real fucking good vacation/personal leave policy....

It makes Parker/Spiderman the most realistic hero brought to screen.  Especially since the stories as presented by Raimi are "figuring out how to do the right thing despite the costs" not "what cool superpowered fights we can present!!!!"

[WayAbvPar]

How did all you comic book nerds escape the sub-forum??

[Sky]

How did all you comic book nerds escape the sub-forum??

I haven't read comics since the 80s.

All I can say is that the Daily Planet must have a real fucking good vacation/personal leave policy....

Parker is a freelance photographer.

[Merusk]

All I can say is that the Daily Planet must have a real fucking good vacation/personal leave policy....

Parker is a freelance photographer.

Spidey = Bugle
Supes = Planet

[stray]

All I can say is that the Daily Planet must have a real fucking good vacation/personal leave policy....

Parker is a freelance photographer.

Spidey = Bugle
Supes = Planet

See Way...We may be comic book nerds, but not all comic book nerds are made equal.

I'm glad that I didn't catch that one. I feel better about myself already. 

[Velorath]

How did all you comic book nerds escape the sub-forum??

Blame Marvel and DC for pimping out their characters to Hollywood for movies and TV shows (not that DC has much of a choice since WB owns them).  It allows me to escape the sub-forum for small amounts of time.  

On a side note, personally I'd rather comic books remain a niche myself.  With mainstream attention comes shit like the comics code authority.

[Sky]

Spidey = Bugle
Supes = Planet

Woops.

DC sucks, anyway.

With a few exceptions like the New Gods (Kirby pwns) and some of the batman stuff (mostly Detective).

Oh, wait. Was New Gods EC? I forget. EC was cool.

[Johny Cee]

Spidey = Bugle
Supes = Planet

Yah, I know.  My point is: 

Clark Kent can take off any time he wants for extended periods of time,  and no one seems to give a shit.  The Planet union must have some pretty heavy mob connections or something....

Parker meanwhile is getting bitched at all the time by work, mostly cause he's doing something Spidermanish.  And he's technically a Bugle independent contractor.

/shrug....  I think that a fair majority of males hit a comic book phase at some point or another when growing up.  Sort of an after cartoon and before chasing girls phase.  At least it was for me, though I still kept the Punisher subscription for a while.

Having comic films made is a fun way to relive childhood memories.  Which is, I think, why people are so divided on the Venom issue.  I seem to be near Sky's age, in that I missed the whole Venom thing and it just conjures up images of "extreme comics!11!" to me.  Which is why I lean towards the stodgy and kind of boring villains.  Vulture, Electro, Sandman, Scorpion, Kraven.

[stray]

I didn't start reading comics again until last year....Last time before that was like 12. Kind of sad though -- I should have remained a comic book nerd in all of those years between. About the same time I moved on from things like that, I became a very uncool kid.

[Sky]

Clark Kent can take off any time he wants for extended periods of time,  and no one seems to give a shit.  The Planet union must have some pretty heavy mob connections or something....

My favorite take on Clark Kent (I hate DC comics btw) was The Rock on SNL. Perfect.

[Merusk]

All I can say is that the Daily Planet must have a real fucking good vacation/personal leave policy....

Parker is a freelance photographer.

Spidey = Bugle
Supes = Planet

See Way...We may be comic book nerds, but not all comic book nerds are made equal.

I'm glad that I didn't catch that one. I feel better about myself already. 

I didn't know what Parker's paper was called, I had to google it.  I just remember Supe's is the planet because I recall the globe from the Superman Movies.

The only comics I've ever owned were a few TMNT Graphic Novels, Transformers and some Batman/ Detective stories from around age 16.  ;)  Oh, and the "Star Wars Tales" compilations I've recently started picking up.

[HaemishM]

All I can say is that the Daily Planet must have a real fucking good vacation/personal leave policy....

Parker is a freelance photographer.

Spidey = Bugle
Supes = Planet

Actually, Peter Parker is now a science teacher. And recently, Clark Kent was demoted from the regular staff at the Daily Planet to being a crime beat reporter in a satellite office at one of the Metropolis' PD's precints, his job replaced by Jack Ryder, who happens to be the secret identity of the Creeper. Also, he's recovering from having been mind-controlled by Max Lord and forced into almost killing Batman and Wonder Woman.

The DC Comics you remember? Yeah, that's changing. The iconic characters are being given some serious flaws lately, especially the big 3. Meanwhile, Marvel is really starting to get fucking stupid.

[Yegolev]

Dr. Doom is stil his arch nemesis. But I think Galactus is up there.

"I thought I was his nemesis!"

[HaemishM]

"UNDERBITE? That two-bit Doctor Doom wannabe?"

[Sky]

Dr. Doom is stil his arch nemesis. But I think Galactus is up there.

"I thought I was his nemesis!"

That image didn't load for me, and I misunderstood the italicized I. I thought this was Reed's new nemesis:

[Yegolev]

Remote site broken.  Here is Underbite's crotch, and Girl Hitler:

[Sky]

Slash'd kick both their asses imo.

Speaking of 'nemesis', here's a horrible cunt:

[ahoythematey]

Actually, Peter Parker is now a science teacher. And recently, Clark Kent was demoted from the regular staff at the Daily Planet to being a crime beat reporter in a satellite office at one of the Metropolis' PD's precints, his job replaced by Jack Ryder, who happens to be the secret identity of the Creeper. Also, he's recovering from having been mind-controlled by Max Lord and forced into almost killing Batman and Wonder Woman.

The DC Comics you remember? Yeah, that's changing. The iconic characters are being given some serious flaws lately, especially the big 3. Meanwhile, Marvel is really starting to get fucking stupid.

"Starting"?  I still remember the clone shenanigans of Spidey.  I'm firmly in the opinion that Marvel Comics became fucking stupid long ago.  I am biased, though, since they never had the awesomeness of Eclipso.  Now, that is how you do an EVIL, LIKE THE FRU-ITS OF THE DEVIL, villain.

Sky: never mess with a guy that owns a pig farm.  And don't worry about the suger in his tea, Bricktop is sweet enough.

[Velorath]

Marvel is getting back to where they were in the 90's (which is bad, and was about the time I stopped reading most comics for several years).  There's some good stuff still coming out of there though.  The recent G.L.A. mini for instance,i was probably one of the best things I've read in recent years, partly because it does a good job of poking fun at shit like Disassembled and Identity Crisis, while telling a good story about the biggest underdog team in the MU.

For pretty much the first time ever though, I'm reading DC stuff on a regular basis.  They've had their stupidity in the past too (Superman dies, Batman's back is broken, Green Lantern goes crazy and murders people), and I think when all is said and done despite the general quality of the stories, Infinite Crisis is really going to wear on people due to it's length.

Really though, I just try and follow the writers I like rather than the characters or the companies.

[Sky]

I remember, just after I had gotten out of collecting comics, when Supes died. People were lined up to buy dozens of the issue, same folks who would buy a dozen first issues of a series. It's when they started releasing the rare covers with gold foil and all that nonsense. It really became a ridiculous scene that wasn't at all about the art and stories, but about commodity.