Guitar thread

[Nebu]

The bass line is sloppy, I threw it on as an afterthought because I was inspired by a Janis Joplin documentary and I haven't played bass in a while.

I'd say that it was a bit too busy for the song.  You're obviously a talented bass player, but sometimes less is more (aka Duck Dunn). 

Overall, I really enjoyed your guitar playing and wish it had been a bit more highlighted.  I also think that your singing is better than you think.  You have a unique voice that suits the style well.  Were I to have mixed the track, I would have a) given the guitar a tad more depth b) replaced the acoustic with a backbeat strumed clean electric (would sound great on a compressed ES 335 with some reverb and a little tremolo) c) kept the bass line fat and simple and d) added a little delay to the vocal. 

It's very brave of you to put stuff like this out into the internet void and I'm glad you did.  You're a talented musician and it's clear where your strengths are. 

[Raph]

I like the electric part quite a lot. Hate the tone on the acoustic. Noisy AND rubberbandy. :) Replace it! I agree the bass is a bit too busy, but you're a good bass player. I think a bit of effects in the mix would make a big difference on the vocal. I also think you're trying a bit too hard on it in a few places, pushing it too much.

[stray]

Hehe Raph finally gets to be a critic 

[Furiously]

30 seconds later I'm still laughing at that comment...

[Phildo]

I expect anything he'd describe as having been pooped out is probably going to need some cleaning up.  For what it's worth, I enjoyed it.  More people should post some work and expose themselves to ridicule.  As such, I played the drums on this little number.

And for the sake of humor, I composed this in class when they forced us to mess around with some MIDI gear.  It's the first song I've written since I was 4 years old, and probably the last.

[Sky]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it. Very helpful to get some perspective on stuff, my fiancee just gives me positive reviews :P

Raph, since you do a lot of acoustic stuff, could you expand on what you mean about the acoustic part? It was just my cheap Alvarez run through a crappy patch on my GT-6 direct in to the recorder. There's a volume boost and a little verb on it. I've never been able to find a good setup for that guitar, my Baby Taylor sounds so much better recorded through my SM-58 lying on the coffee table :P Not sure if there's any hope for the Alvarez, I'd hate to get rid of it because the fiancee loves it (it was my main guitar when we were first dating).

I mean, it's got a jangly tone I'm not a big fan of, I prefer nylon-stringed guitars (Willie Nelson FTW). Also, the rhythm is easily the weakest part imo because I haven't really been working on chorded rhythms much, I usually just play fragments and inversions on the electric (even if I don't know what half of them actually are :P). Not really sure how I could improve the rhythm part without a drum part, I guess part of getting this setup together is getting a good instrumentation setup in my head :) I was spoiled when I was young, always had a band to work my ideas through.

The bass...yeah, I've always been accused of being a bit busy. There are a few places where I don't think it worked because I was trying to jam in a phrase that didn't quite fit. Overall, though, it's a stylistic thing. If I could play like Duck, I would. But that's how I play bass, and I don't really have time to focus on improving my bass skills without removing focus from improving on guitar (especially the aforementioned rhythm stuff).

When Raph says I'm trying to hard...it just sounds that way. I don't even really pay attention to how notey it is, I'm just thinking ahead to the next phrasing and playing off the cuff. But it's a valid criticism, my fiancee is always telling me to give it some more space, especially when we watch Buddy Guy who's phrasing is monstrously good (I guess she does give good criticism now and again, heh).

My voice. Yeah. We'll get there. I usually add a drop of verb to a finished recording, forgot to put it on this one when I bounced to stereo because I didn't give it a final mixdown, just the bounce to stereo. I already destroyed that vocal track on the original trying to change it around. Got one really nice verse (again inspired by Janis who I've been listening to lately), but it's at the top-end of my range and there wasn't much room to riff on things and it REALLY fell apart on the third verse because I tried to change it up too much.

[stray]

Best way to record an acoustic is to DISTORT it 

Mmm, Jumpin' Jack Flash/Street Fighting Man style

[stray]

To be serious though, I don't really see much wrong about how it's recorded though. I mentioned dissonance earlier, and that's just to do with syncing and some of the mix levels clashing. A better backing guitar track for that song should be a little more muffled, trebs and level down, etc.. Think jazzy. Kind hard to pull off with a typical steel string, but it can be done. Or hell, you can do the rhythm on the electric too, of course.

[Furiously]

And for the sake of humor, I composed this in class when they forced us to mess around with some MIDI gear.  It's the first song I've written since I was 4 years old, and probably the last.

It just needs some LL Cool J saying, "I'm in love girl."

[Raph]

What I meant was that you were getting fuzz and crackle on the acoustic part, but only some of the time. That's a tricky line to walk tonally, for me. (YMMV). I would either play it up or play it down. Most of the time, getting the touch of distortion only on loud signal just sounds messy, especially on a rhythm part which is supposed to be backgrounded and filler. If you think about it on electric guitars, when you aim for that sort of "clean sometimes" sort of tone, it usually happens because of multiple strings vibrating at the same time, not just because of playing one note louder.

Most low-end acoustic pickups aren't very good at capturing the sound of wood, and the result is a tone that to me always sounds like rubberbands. :) This is just an issue with pickups, unless you're up at the high end with something like a Taylor ES system (drool) or a Fishman Blender style thing.

Poor man's version of the blender effect would be to record direct and also mike the guitar, record on two tracks simultaneously, then adjust the mix to get the balance of tone you want. This is probably why your Baby sounds better miked -- no pickup involved.

If you want to try miking to get better acoustic tone and just have the one mic, try pointing it at the 12th fret. If you want to try better tone via the pickup, try turning the volume knob down on the pickup, adjusting the tone knob towards mid or lower end, and boosting the volume on the amp instead. And fiddle some with the EQ. A pickup on an acoustic tends to emphasize the treble too much. And try older strings, which jangle less -- that jangle gets magnified greatly.

The rubberbandy sound isn't BAD per se, btw. It just conjures up Ovation guitars to me. :)

BTW, I meant the vocal was what sounded like it was trying too hard -- not the song as a whole. There were some places where the growl sounded a little affected to me, like you tried too hard to get it.

PS, "Hehe Raph finally gets to be a critic"

Heh, people either forget or don't know: I spent years in writing workshops and have an MFA, I studied music theory and composition in college, and studio art to boot. I AM a critic. ;) Or can easily be one, anyway!

[Sky]

Woo, great feedback, thanks Mr Critic! 

On the 'affected' growl...that's actually me trying to sing in tune on the one hand and trying to keep it from sounding metal on the other. It's really difficult, part of my searching for my voice. But you're definitely right, that track has been very difficult for me. I tend to sing Muddy and Junior Wells stuff a lot better, BB and Otis Rush much less so.

Re: Ovation sound. I completely understand with just that phrase :) I'll mess around with the stuff you mentioned. You guys have probably noticed I'm not the most methodical and patient person in the room...I like to plug in and lay it down. This morning my voice was totally shot thanks to a head cold...but that's when I get this incredible low register going. Wanted to lay down She's Nineteen Years Old and rushed recorded it simply awful. I need a drum machine or something, that's one reason for the acoustic base track on Thrill Is Gone. Great vocal part on the 19yo track, though, hate to lose it.

I wish I could remember a fraction of my college training, studio engineering major, theory minor. Now I construct chords by pattern 

[stray]

Dude, who can sing Otis Rush except.... Otis Rush? Don't even sweat it

[Sky]

So. Drums. What do you guys use? I have a real kit, but I can't really set it up at my apartment and driving out to my parents to record them is not feasible. Of course, I'd prefer laying my own drums tracks. So I need something electronic, I guess.

We used to have an awful Alesis machine, later we upgraded to a Boss I used at school. I remember that being nicer but still pretty limiting. Looking at musiciansfriend.com, that same (or minorly upgraded) Alesis is still around. Arg. The 'cheap' Boss ($280) sounds real limiting (only two measures at a time?) and the better one ($500) is loaded with nonsense I don't need (COSM, bass lines). If I had to buy one, I'd probably save up for the better Boss unit, which would probably push it into next summer (since I'll be getting a guitar amp soon!).

I'd be interested in any feedback on units you guys have used, or alternatives like software even though I'd rather have a dedicated unit and not dick around with the pc unless it was a really compelling package.

[stray]

I use a neighbor. I also used to use an old Akai MPC, with a bunch of nice drum samples on it [you could feed any samples you want.. I believe the drum disc I had was made by Roland though.. Had dozens of real kits]. I'm just not very creative with drum dynamics though, so even with that kind automation, my beats aren't that good.

Either way though, I haven't recorded anything in awhile, let alone anything that needed a drum track. Pretty much slackin' on the entire music thing, I guess.

[Phildo]

MPC is good, but it can get a little expensive.  If you have a laptop, throw a copy of FL Studio on it and use that.

[Raph]

I have an Alesis SR-16. But a fair amount of the time I use loops for Acid Pro. Occasionally I'll pull out shakers or the bongos, but not often.

[Nebu]

Let me know what you end up with, Sky.  I've been considering buying a drum machine for years, but I can't get away from the subtle imperfections that make a live drummer a good thing to have.  I've actually been toying with the idea of just getting a cheap kit and learning to play better myself... though I have the luxury of owning a house in a quiet neighborhood. 

On a side note, I just picked up one of THESE for next to nothing on eBay.  I figured it would make a nice contrast to the Telecaster I've been playing and I didn't want to shuck out $1k for an SG or Les Paul until my skills get back to where they used to be. 

Now all I need is a new guitar head...

[Sky]

I'm really just a frustrated drummer, I think. 

[stray]

ARGHH!

I'm stumped.

Beeswing

Even with a tab

[Nebu]

Beautiful song... god I wish I had that thing... what was it... oh, yeah: Talent. 

Thanks for the link.  I may tinker with this song over the Holidays.

[sidereal]

ARGHH!

I'm stumped.

Well he capo'd the 3rd and it sounds like a dropped tuning.  It looks like Am to F to start the chorus.  The section of video starting at 3:02 is instructive.  That's all I got from work.  Great song, though.

Edit: I'm an idiot.  I just noticed you linked the tab.  I'm not going to improve on that.

[stray]

Think it's capo at 3, dropped D. I still suck though. 

[Raph]

Ah, Richard Thompson. I still haven't mastered "'52 Vincent Black Lightning" properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxKTzwaEa2o

[stray]

Yeah, 52 is great. I should probably just focus on that (although I suck at it too). I'm better with steel strings.

[Raph]

Musical gear in this year's gift pile:

• Audio-Technica noise-cancelling headphones.
• A keyboard stand. For the nice keyboard I need to get. Which one am I getting?
• The Beatles Complete Chord Songbook.

[stray]

Uh, how big is the stand? I guess that'll dictate which board you'll get!

Are you interested in full blown synths or just digital pianos?

[Raph]

I used to futz around with MIDI stuff in like 1992. :P Haven't in a long time. I guess I want something that feels like a piano (weighted keys, velocity sensitive), and that I can use as a controller. I have actual MIDI jacks all over the place, not just USB, btw.

I don't know what the typical way is these days to use a keyboard as a controller, what format for patches everyone prefers, and where you get the sounds. I loaded a SoundFont once. :)

The stand can handle a full-size keyboard. I think I'd rather have 88, but would settle for 61...

[stray]

USB or Midi, doesn't matter.

Mostly anything with 88 weighted keys will be a digital piano. There are vanilla controllers though that are more or less built the same way. M-Audio makes a pretty affordable one ($400 @ Musician's Friend).

Not very many of the fancier synths are weighted though, or even 88 keys for that matter.


Uhh, as for typical use these days.. Just running sequencing/soft synth programs as usual. That m-audio board above apparently comes with Ableton Live "Lite" -- not sure what the lite version has, but the normal version is one of the popular sequencer programs around these days (despite it's name, it's good for composing too, not just performance). There's always the big multitracker programs as well -- ProTools, Logic (and by extension Quicktime), Cubase. Can't go wrong with any of them either for multitracking or sequencing. The simple answer though is ProTools.

As for sounds... Umm. Any of the standard instruments through these progs will more than do. If you're really adventurous, you could build your own soft synths too --- this I know little about, and not sure what direction to point in. I could ask a buddy later.

[Phildo]

I agree, the M-Audio key stations are great if you're just using it as a controller, although I don't like the way the keys are weighted.  Can your budget incorporate something like a Triton or Phantom?  Those are the big two for MIDI right now, from what I understand.

I believe I mentioned it before, but FL Studio is a great program for MIDI sequencing, and it can incorporate homemade synths very easily.

[Raph]

So, what I really want to do is just add richer arrangements to my music. So I don't want spacey synths, I want realistic stuff. A good piano sound, strings that don't sound like a synth.

I generally use Sibelius to capture notation, and if I make a MIDI it's usually from there because it will play it back with expression. I am incredibly rusty on keys but feel like I can work my way back to knowing my way around given some time.

So I want a) decent sounds b) something that feels good to play on

That's basically it. I don't know what I'd be controlling if I only had a controller, I guess. :) You tell me.

[stray]

You could control any kind of virtual instrument you want. Not necessarily "spacey" stuff.

There are some good software based instruments out there... Better than anything you'll find hardcoded in most keyboards. They can usually be interacted with as standalone programs, or as plug-ins for Cubase, ProTools, MOTU, Logic..

For a realistic piano, take a look at Synthogy (Rachmaninoff example). It's not synthesis, but midi controllable sample playback/streaming -- at a pretty insane level. It's so extensive in sampling all of the dynamics and range of the 3 piano models it includes that it takes up about 40GB of space. It'll respond to whatever you're pounding away at on the controller.

[Sky]

I want to get the fiancee something to get back into playing piano, so I'm also kind of interested in Raph's query. We looked at a bunch at the local music shop, but anything with decent key action was in the $1000+ range, which we're not quite ready to dive into. The consensus is we'll wait until we get a house and get a used piano, so I guess I have nothing to add to the discussion. Except to suggest you get a piano and mic it!

My big gift this year was enough money to get me into a decent amp (I've been saving most of this year, too). She's tired of hearing me use it as 'an excuse'.  I should've brought my SG to the last blues jam, though, the guy with the incredible Vero amp I linked before said I could've used his  On the downside, he's the guy I wanted to jam with, he's got a sick chord knowledge.

On the playing front, I've been making some incredible breakthroughs. Baby steps, little things, but incredibly liberating. Also embarassing I'm learning this stuff over twenty years after picking up the guitar :) I blame the years I played bass :P Anyway, learning the neck through the CAGED system. It's finally filtering into my playing, we were watching the 2007 Farm Aid thing and Haynes does a nice acoustic version of Soulshine. I was playing along with open chords and then started to monkey around with playing different triads on the top three strings, it was wild. The CAGED system pwns. I may actually be a decent guitarist someday.

[Phildo]

Raph, you can save a good deal of money by purchasing a straight controller and having it run directly into Acid, which can use any of the numerous VST virtual synths out there.  I don't have much personal experience with VSTs, but I do know it's the most numerous of the plug-in formats.  The M-audio stuff already mentioned would be perfect for it.

Quick google search turned up this list of VST synths: http://www.synthzone.com/softsyn.htm

There are tons out there and you can edit the sounds on most of them, so finding the particular sound you're looking for is just a matter of experimentation  with parameters most of the time.

[stray]

Agreed. Besides, I'd think the whole the soft synth thing would be up your alley anyways, being that you have an interest in software programming and design.

[Raph]

So I went and found some free VSTs and messed with 'em with some of the Sibelius stuff I have notated and turned into MIDIs... easy peasy. :) Basically acts like a different MIDI instrument.