1 million of you are keeping Blizzard in money hats.

[Raph]

I want to see more lists. ElGallo, what's your list like?

[penfold]

I didnt renew my subscription. WoW is definetly the best mmorpg out there, and has proved to me one thing. I dont like mmorpgs. mmogs yes, rpgs yes, mmorpgs no. I need story, characters, plot. Level and skills should be a byproduct of playing through the game, not the whole point of playing it.  I'll stick to single player games when it comes to an rpg ruleset for gameplay from now on.

[stray]

I didnt renew my subscription. WoW is definetly the best mmorpg out there, and has proved to me one thing. I dont like mmorpgs. mmogs yes, rpgs yes, mmorpgs no. I need story, characters, plot. Level and skills should be a byproduct of playing through the game, not the whole point of playing it.  I'll stick to single player games when it comes to an rpg ruleset for gameplay from now on.

Well said...

/hits the crack pipe

Well said indeed.

I have no excuses. I guess I could say that I'm just filling in a void when a current batch of single player games aren't doing their job for me (i.e. I'm not playing an mmorpg because of it's own merits really..It's just that every other option isn't much better). Also, I enjoy to experiment with things.

That being said, the rest of this year looks to be pretty good for sp games...I'll really have no excuse if I'm playing WoW in December.

[Malderi]

I didnt renew my subscription. WoW is definetly the best mmorpg out there, and has proved to me one thing. I dont like mmorpgs. mmogs yes, rpgs yes, mmorpgs no. I need story, characters, plot. Level and skills should be a byproduct of playing through the game, not the whole point of playing it.  I'll stick to single player games when it comes to an rpg ruleset for gameplay from now on.

As someone with preferences much like yours... wait for City of Villains. I don't know if you've ever played CoH before, but it's kind of fun, but CoV adds lots of stuff that make it feel a lot more like a single-player RPG - and I mean that in a good way. The NDA prevents me from revealing things that haven't already, but they've already released, for example, that missions can have cutscenes in them. So, for example, you're halfway into this building to kill this rival gang leader and as you go through you'll see a cutscene showing that gang leader saying "Curses, Malderi is almost upon me!" and him getting his gun out - and so on and so forth. It sounds small but really adds a lot. CoV is damn good, and I'd suggest you try it. I'm a fanboy of CoH but CoV adds so much more to it.

[WindupAtheist]

#2 is something I always see people ask for, but I'm not sure they want.  WoW has a fair number of balance issues already, between classes and between talent builds in the same class.  Even more skill customizability = more balancing nightmares, more time spent buffing and nerfing, and more time spent on content designed for each of the 100,000 different effective classes you now have.

I don't need 100k different classes, but each class having several distinct possible builds would be rather nice.  World of Warcraft tries to do this, with mixed results overall, but there's definitely room for improvement.  I liked how WoW allowed a normally one-note class like priests to branch out, but hated how they took a supposed hybrid-class like paladins and made them duller than shit.

Frankly, I'd like to see more diversity through different gear sets.  That avoids most of these problems because everyone has access to them.  If you could swap gear and switch from a shadow/disc priest to a disc/holy priest, the priest class would be a lot more able to function well in all areas of the game.  More specialization/customization would just make these problems worth.

Different approach, same result.  I just don't want there to be only eight types of player characters in the world, which is how WoW often felt to me.  (Keeping in mind, I only played to 39.)

#3 is nice if it does not come at the cost of interesting gear options.  But if you can significantly customize your body, you will end up with a much narrower range of gear looks.

If UO did nothing else well, it was this.  Bodies couldn't be customized at all, yet I could identify particular avatars without looking at their names.  I want "fluff gear".  I want purely cosmetic cloaks and sashes and belts that don't effect my abilities at all.  (Or numerous statistically-identical items which all look different, or the ability to make my Hat of Ownage look different than yours, or any of several other equally good ideas.)  I want to be able to dye my gear different colors, even if it does mean I have to look at retards who think neon-yellow platemail is fashionable.

##4-7, 9 I just don't get.  UberDragon drops Sword of Roxxorage and it goes to Joe Fighter.  Yippee.  UberDragon drops Ore of Roxxorage and Susy the Rogue/Blacksmith (or Susy the Guild Blacksmith Mule) clicks "combine" and out pops a Sword of Roxxorage, which goes to Joe the Fighter.  Uh, double yippee?  To me, it seems like the exact same thing only more annoying.  I don't understand why a crafter would find that system anything other than dull, and maybe even degrading.  Then again, some people profess to actually enjoy being buffbots.  Anyway, I don't care either way -- it wouldn't keep me from playing a game but it doesn't seem to have much point to me, either.  I certainly wouldn't want the dev team spending a lot of resources on this system rather than building us a fun Grendel's Great-Great-Grandmother encounter (with the Sword of Double Roxxorage!).

Well, the fun-factor of crafting itself has always eluded me, but people seem to like it.  And if you're going to have crafting, you may as well give it a purpose.  Besides, done properly it adds a bit more economic and social interaction to the game, without beating you over the head with it.

#8 players just hate this.  Hate hate hate.  I don't mind it that much, but mention the word "decay" and there's blood in the water on your message boards.  This just won't fly.  To the extent this is intended to combat deflation, bind-on-equip/pickup takes care of this.  To the extent this is intended to keep lowbie crafters able to sell their wares to lowbie players, BoE/BoP fix that as well.  To the extent this is intended to keep high end crafters busy creating Swords of Uberosity to replace worn-out Swords of Uberosity, people will hate it.  People want to fight to advance, they don't want to fight to keep from deteriorating.  You need to continually introduce better things to replace the old ones.  If they are crafted, you can keep your crafters just as busy as they would be under a decay system, and keep your adventurers just as happy (i.e. Instead of needing to buy a new Sword of Uberosity each month to replace the one that falls apart, which sucks, I need to buy a better sword each month to keep up with the Joneses).

I suppose you have a point.  With a big fat modern budget, they can just get off their butts and add more content, IE stuff to craft.  Still, you do run the risk of mudflation and imbalance.  Item decay is, to me, a way of harmonizing two desires that would otherwise be incompatible.  Number one, I don't want to have to spend a year at max-level before getting my Sword of Roxxor.  Number two, I don't want Swords of Roxxor to be so common that they're being used for doorstops six months after release.  Ergo, Swords of Roxxor must get used up somehow.  Let me elucidate the system a little further:

1 - There should be no single "best" sword.  There should be diverse weapons for diverse class-builds and intended targets.  I want a Life-Leeching Sword of Ogre Owning, not a Generic Sword of Slay Everything.

2 - These "rare" crafting components shouldn't be rare in the traditional MMO sense, where they drop once per eleventy-million kills.  No, every single dragon should drop scales that can be used to make Uber Dragonscale Armor.  It's just that killing a dragon shouldn't be trivial.

3 - Now that I think about it, go ahead and let some rare leet weapons drop directly off of monsters.  Hell, you can even make them indestructible.  So long as there's a craftable alternative that's almost as good, the have-not's wont be hurting too much.  And since there's no single ultimate weapon to use against everything, the occasional indestructible artifact won't have too much impact, except to give shiny-collectors something to strive for.

Of course, this could all just be more "Make me a modern UO!" rambling craziness on my part.

## 10, 11, 14.  Thumbs up!

Yay!

##12-13: No.  This is the classic cry for "PvP that matters but also doesn't really matter" which just won't work.  If there are real winners and real losers, you will have perma-winners and perma-losers, and you will screw over people who don't care to pvp.  That's unacceptable.  WoW's utter uninterest in doing 12 or 13 is one key reason WoW is vastly better and vastly more successful than its PvP-oriented competitors.

I just want a PvP system where the effects are visible to an outsider, but do not seriously impact him.  When the Horde runs in and kicks the village's ass, have the buildings look damaged for a day or two.  That's all.  Give me the illusion that it matters, but not the griefsome reality.

Totally agree, but I also agree with Trippy that SoE appears to just plain lack the ability to make a game that good.  Maybe management is screwing the pooch, maybe McQuaid took most of the game-making talent with him.  Whatever the reason, SoE is second-rate now.

World of Warcraft really IS the previously hypothetical "Everquest done right".
Unfortunately for SOE, that makes Everquest into "WoW done wrong".

[Cheddar]

World of Warcraft really IS the previously hypothetical "Everquest done right".
Unfortunately for SOE, that makes Everquest into "WoW done wrong".

This is an awesome quote.  Hope you do not mind if I steal it.  Recently (read: yesterday) I got into a "grey" UO server; UORedemption.  Thus far they seem to have done a wonderful job; it feels a lot like the way UO used to be.  In Por Ylem was good, but all the dregs really ruined it day 2 or 3 for me (after seeing someone named "Nigger Baby Killer" I logged off forever).  I think I am done with level based games; if UO does not take care of my itch I will probably hang up my jock strap and go back to console games.  Though this fills me with fright, considering I have not really played them in over 7-8 years (except for GTA:VC - man did I catass that game and loved every minute). 

I dunno, I guess key for me would be a game that offered deteriorating equipment, open ended player interactions (PvP, stealing, ect), no levels, and a crafting system that was intricate enough to placate those who want to play tradesmen yet simple enough that people could dabble (I have come to hate EQ2 crafting - swing and a miss there). 

I wish Neocron had worked out 

[MrHat]

I just want a PvP system where the effects are visible to an outsider, but do not seriously impact him.  When the Horde runs in and kicks the village's ass, have the buildings look damaged for a day or two.  That's all.  Give me the illusion that it matters, but not the griefsome reality.

Yup, that would be perfect.  They already have city wide buffs for everyone present in the city when you defeat Onyxia, why not expand this to some sort of outdoor conflict, and award everyone at the home city with a Frontier-Fighter Buff or some shit.

[StGabe]

My list for what it is worth.  Probably a little bit too general but oh well.

Characterization:
1) Interesting and customizable character advancement (branching skill systems, specialization, etc.)
2) Interesting visual character customization.

#1 creates fun for explorers, achievers and killers alike.  The best implementation of this to date is DAoC.  #1 and #2 together enhance player investment and identification with their character and allows players to feel that they are unique in the world.  #2 has been best implemented in SWG.  This one of WoW's weakest points for me and an area where I am surprised they didn't do better.  Look at Diablo for example -- that's the sort of character development I expected and has obviously already worked.

PvE:
3) Diverse and comparable PvE options (solo, group, raid, quest).
4) PvE with a wide entrance that leads to a deep game.
5) Power should grow in a logarithmic fashion.

#3 means providing PvE options for several styles of play without making one or the other feel marginalized.  Very tough to achieve.  #4 is a paraphrase of a comment made by Lumines creator Mizuguchi.  Make a game that is very accessible and where progress is easy to attain especially early on.  But make a game that is very open-ended and has depth to last players for months or years.  The wide entrance will be enough for casual players.  The deepness behind it will keep the more hardcore players interested.  I suppose I should give at least one nod to WoW and I'd say that here is where they have probably had their greatest successes.  #5 means diminishing returns.  On everything.  Allow players to spend hundreds of hours min-max'ing.  But even the most min-max'ed character should be within reach of those who are more casual.  Epic items should provide power increases of ~5% and not ~50%.   To those hardcore enough to achieve them this will be enough and to those who are more casual it won't be too much to break the game.

Social Gameplay
6) Social gameplay, of all flavors.  Housing, clothing, economy, grouping, guilds, guild houses, guild ranks.
7) Don't require social gameplay for those who are not interested.

Players do get into social play.  Dressing up in costumes, RP'ing, hosting parties, weddings.  SWG demonstrated that with its success despite failures in most other areas.  Entertainers were a mistake though.  Social play should be presented as an opportunity and not a requirement.  Rewards should be perks but not game-altering or required perks (EQ2 actually does a very good job of this with respect to guilds).

Crafting:
8) Interesting crafting system.
9) But make legendary crafting results dependent on CRAFTER actions.
10) Balance what crafters have to offer PvE'ers with what PvE'ers have to offer
11) Ample social opportunities in crafting.

#8: Crafting needs to be more than clicking combine or grinding.  That means creating a system interesting enough to where players can spend dozens or more hours just "playing" with results and learning how best to do things.  Crafting should be a game, not a grind (like SWG) and not a matter of collecting a specific flavor of loot (like mithril bars in WoW).  SWG despite its grind has probably done the best job of making an interesting crafting system.

#9 means: skip the whole uber loot as a crafting item.  It doesn't work.  Neither side wins.  The PvE'ers feel far too dependent on the crafters.  And the crafters?  It's not very fun for them either.  Someone shows up and demands that they do a combine (which takes them about 5 seconds and no player skill) and then runs off.  Instead, rare crafting "loot" should be a product of actual crafting.  This is an idea we actually threw around the SWG correspondent forum in several forms (not that it every got picked up :)).  There are many ways to go with this.  Most of them unfortunately turn into grinds if you let them.  But if designers use their imagination there are several ways through this.  Legendary successes can be a product of time passed and not of items created, for example.

#10 means do create some dependencies between crafters and PvE'ers but BALANCE them.  PvE'ers can and should supply resources to crafters for example.  Not uber loot to combine and turn into uber items but everyday resources that cannot be achieved through pure crafting.  In turn then the crafters can churn out useful PvE items.  Far too many games assume that there will be balance in these dependencies without actually making sure this will happen.  I'm not aware of any game that really does a great job of this.

#11: go the next step with player shops in SWG.  It works, it really does.  At least until they ruined it about 9 months ago.  This is a very interesting "game" for lots and lots of players.

PvP:
#12: Remove personalities from PvP.
#13: Same as PvP: power increases in a logarithmic fashion.
#14: Don't be afraid to change the rulesets.

#12 was implemented very well by DAoC and was ok but not quite as well in WoW.  Separate players a bit and allow them breathing room.  Don't let them scream at each other in game.  Those who require yelling and screaming will find their niche (forums) and those who are put off of it won't be affected by it in-game.

For #13: reward PvP and have it affect the world but have it do so with diminishing returns.  This is probably even more important for PvP than for PvE.

#14 means that you should treat balance for PvP and PvE as different beasts.  They are different games that satisfy different playstyles.  As such you shouldn't shy away from creating different rulesets.  It is very simply the best way to make sure that both realms are fun and playable.

IMO this is one of the most important lessons of non-WoW games: don't let your world design or the different playstyles that you try to reach negatively impact each other too much.  Don't let Jedi break your game.  Don't let PvE break PvP and don't let PvP break PvE.  Don't make social gameplay, crafting, PvE, PvP, RP, static content or dynamic content take too much away from having fun with other parts of the game.

The World:
#15: Enough static content to get players into the game.
#16: Enough dynamic content for players to keep them there.

Well, duh.

#15 is best done by WoW or EQ2.  You obviously need lots of static content to capture players early on.  Personally I don't care much for static content but I admit that it needst o be there.

For #16 try for lower-hanging fruit.  Go look at some of the very simple stuff that Achaea does (as well as some of the more complicated stuff).  SWG tried to this.  And failed.  Most dynamic quests had too little effect on the world and were too localized.  PvE, PvP and social play should all change the world in subtle and not so subtle ways.  It amazes me that more hasn't been done with this.  I think most designers just try too hard.  Let players vote in local elections for static cities.  Let players clean up or destroy the environments around them.  Let PvE'ers and PvP'ers both capture and own territory -- even if this has little gameplay effect beyond changing how these places look.  Make mob populations even slightly dynamic so that hunters have to wander around to find good populations of mobs to fight.  Make 6 PvE and 6 PvP shrines that followers of lightness and darkness fiht over.  The more of them that are dark, the darker the sky.  The more of them that are light, the brighter.  Very simple and great content.  Yet very little of this is actually done.  DAoC still has the best implementation of this I've seen and it is still lacking.

#17:  Keep trying to create fun gameplay that isn't all about combat.

A game is a game.  There are lots of multiplayer games that can engross players.  I think MMO's need to branch out more.  Let us play Texas Hold'em.  Let us do dynamic logic puzzles.  Let us play puzzle games ala Puzzle Pirates.  Let us breed monsters ala Pokemon, Jade Coccoon, let us drive vehicles as more than a means to getting a dungeon more quickly, etc.

[Ironwood]

Heh.  Where was Pazzak in SWG.  Or Sabacc for that matter.

[Llava]

WindUpAtheist is kicking ass over the last couple pages or so.  I don't agree 100% with everything (largely, as has been pointed out, that dropped uber crafting materials still equal a drop reliant economy), but pretty close.

Just one thing I'd like to address- PvE raids.

Stop it.  Just stop with the raids.  One full, skilled group should be all that's required to have a shot at the best stuff in the game.  DAoC, I'm looking at you.  WoW, I'm looking at you.  CoH, I'm looking at you (Hamidon counts).  Guild Wars, I'm... oh, well okay then.

No one but the worst MMOsochists enjoys trying to gather up 40 people at one time and getting them all to obey ridiculously complex instructions.  If you absolutely MUST HAVE BIG ENCOUNTERS, it should go no bigger than two groups.  And for christsake, if you're going to do something like that then take advantage of the fact that there are two groups!  Don't just say "Well, 16 people=more damage than 8 people!" and throw them up against a guy with lots of hit points.  Give them two separate paths to take which intersect at points but otherwise test each group differently.  Don't just throw different kinds of enemies at each group- maybe one group has to solve a puzzle or participate in a movement-based challenge (bring 30 of these from here to here in 15 seconds, go!)  But so many games insist on requiring players to throw ridiculous numbers at an enemy in what's supposed to be an "epic and challenging battle!"  It's NOT epic and challenging.  It's laggy, boring, and frustrating!  And people cheer at the end for the same reason people cheer when they graduate from school- it's finally fucking OVER.

In a MMOG, it is statistically impossible to gather 8 people who don't know one another and have each and every one of them be capable of paying attention and following directions.  When you DO manage to get together 8 of those people, it feels like you've won the lottery.  Then when you realize you need to win the lottery 5 more times until you have what you need to take down this "epic and challenging encounter", you either say "fuck this" and quit or grit your teeth and start recruiting morons who probably have to ask for directions to find their keyboards so they can ask for directions to the same spot you just fucking gave them directions for.  AND THE GAME FUCKING GIVES YOU WAYPOINTS TO FOLLOW.

I think I had a point in there somewhere.

Oh, right!

No more raids.  You've abused the privilege, and until you show me that you're capable of handling it responsibly you're not getting it back.

(Good multiple group encounters:
CoH zone events/giant monsters, because they come to you and in many cases all characters' attacks and defenses scale appropriately against them, so anyone can join in.
Over two years playing DAoC and I can't think of a single multi-group encounter I enjoyed there.  All the fun ones were either soloable or could be done with a single group.  The chess trial in ToA was the best thing I'd ever seen in that game and could be beaten alone, the majority of the rest of that expansion was exactly the opposite and should serve as a lesson in what NOT to do anymore.)

[Ironwood]

Raids Suck.

[schild]

No, hotkeys suck. Honestly, if someone can come up with an alternative to hotkey based combat/crafting then creativity will flow forth. That one hurdle has fucked the genre. It's one thing for single player RPGs to have hotkeys (or a menu system). But it's another thing entirely for a competitive title to have hotkeys to drive the characters. There's simply nothing competitive about it. I don't care how much "skill" it takes to lay the smack down on a Warlock in WoW. The combat system is the byproduct of a bastard combination of goddamned narrowband support and thinking that players are drooling retards.

I hope WoW forces every single level based hotkey treadmill in development to be canceled. But that won't happen.

What good are lists when everyone wants to fund the next WoW? But if we're supposed to be giving lists, here's mine:

1. Breathing world. If you can't achieve that, I'll accept barely conscious - since that doesn't even exist yet.
2. Console/VoIP based. With combat like Dynasty Warriors, Zelda, Soul Calibur, Ninja Gaiden, or - hell, I'll accept Grafitti Kingdom.
3. Targeted towards adults produced with the grace and maturity of God of War. Not Grand Theft Auto.
4. No Levels. But if you're dead set on levels, at least make it as interesting as a Nippon Ichi title. And then when you realize that's too hard, get rid of levels altogether.
5. Something not based on motherfucking Tolkien.
6. Monsters that drop appropriate loot - see Breathing World.

I'm just going to stop. After I see what's in production at AGC, I may have something more cohesive. But at the moment, I'd be much more interested in playing the Japan-only titles like Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine, Romance of the Three Kingdoms Online, or Front Mission Online. At the very least, there are no elves in them and they are far more interesting than anything involving a "fantasy world." And I don't even like robots.

[Merusk]

My list is pretty simple, because being specific is too much of a design doc thing.

Pick one thing that your game is about. Don't just do it 'well,' do it so damn good that people won't stop talking about it.  WoW did this. CoH did this.  Then, when you've got that down PAT you can start adding-on other things.  That way, even if you run out of development time & money before you get them all done, the players still have one good thing to do instead of 300 crappy things to do. The extras will be seen as extras and can be more fully developed as you progress.

 It's got to be killing you, Raph, that people won't stop talking about COH and WOW despite them being nothing like what you want to see developed.  You've suffered from too broad a vision. Wow's been slowly adding-in other non-achiever things to play with.  The dressing room, the Darkmoon Faire (though even that has some achiever stuff. That is the focus of the game, after all.) fireworks for engineers.  Yeah, it's been a small portion of their updates, but again it's not the focus of the game, because it doesn't forget that it IS a game first and foremost in the minds of the majority of it's players.

Would I like to see all these bells and whistles people are talking about?  Sure, they'd be nice things to have, but they're not a requirement for me. Fussing over them and how 'it's not a world' if it doesn't have them means squat to me, and I suspect the same to most folks.  Combat's my thing, that's the competition and character development I crave and expect.  I'm a Bartle EAS, and my S was fairly low.

You want to develop a world, then focus on the social stuff FIRST.  Add-in content that will attract and dazzle those type of social players, not me and my type.  If I say "Meh, I wouldn't play it" it's probably a good social game.  Housing, clothing options, social interaction, cities. ALL that stuff from SWG would be great in any other game that the playerbase didn't expect action-oriented and intense combat.

[Glazius]

No, hotkeys suck. Honestly, if someone can come up with an alternative to hotkey based combat/crafting then creativity will flow forth. That one hurdle has fucked the genre. It's one thing for single player RPGs to have hotkeys (or a menu system). But it's another thing entirely for a competitive title to have hotkeys to drive the characters.

Here's where you lost me.

What's the functional difference between driving my hero with WASD and making him do attacks with the numpad, and driving my hero with a thumbstick/D-pad and making him do attacks with the buttons?

--GF

[Ironwood]

Actually, the whole hotkey thing lost me entirely.  What're you trying to say ?  Should it be text driven ??

[Dren]

Yep, I'm lost there too.  You want pull downs instead?  No.

I want to jump on the "Raids Suck" bandwagon too.  Because, well, they do.

[Ironwood]

You know what bothers me most about Raids;  Apart from the fact that they take ages to organise and, like it or not, there are at least 20 drooling retards in a 40 man group ?

It's the lack of Epic scope.  They say it's an EPIC encounter, but honestly when did you ever see any legendary heroes stories where you had to amass 40 dudes to chain-gank some poor hapless computer controlled motherfucker ?  It's STUPID.  It also FAILS SPECTACULARLY to engage the excitement or adventure - it just reinforces the sense of jarring dissallusionment that all you are doing is facing the same fucking monsters except with the 'HARDNESS' button cranked up to 11.

I watched one of my wives Raid groups being taken apart by one of the mobs in MC and one thing I DIDN'T think was 'my, that looks like fun.'

And before anyone says anything, I've watched them go right too - and it still sucks.

[Merusk]

I think Schild is saying he wants Street Fighter/ Mortal Kombat/ Ninja Gaidain gameplay in his MMOs.  Instead of "Push button for riposote" you'd  ^ > < b+a on a gamepad.  Basic attacks on 'teh buttons'  & specials from button combos.

I'm old (ok not really) but without a real joystick those combos have always sucked, IMO. I'll stick with buttons, thx. 

[Ironwood]

I think Schild is saying he wants Street Fighter/ Mortal Kombat/ Ninja Gaidain gameplay in his MMOs.  Instead of "Push button for riposote" you'd  ^ > < b+a on a gamepad.  Basic attacks on 'teh buttons'  & specials from button combos.

I'm old (ok not really) but without a real joystick those combos have always sucked, IMO. I'll stick with buttons, thx. 

I hope that's not what he's saying, because it's fucking retarded.

Imagine your 3 hour MC raid with that kind of shit.  Instead of pressing 7, you have a combo for backstab.  Your hands would BREAK after the first hour.

[Murgos]

Let me expand the "I want a pony" philosophy a bit.

#1 most important point - I want my avatar to be a hero that does heroic things.  Killing an orc in solo combat is not heroic when there are 15000 orcs standing around staring at the sunset, so story and motivation are important for this.  Cutscenes aid this greatly, in engine is fine.  (Legendary World Class Athelete, Bruce Lee, Achillies, Lancelot, Superman all rolled into one)

#2 If I craft something I want to do it as a hero would,  Feanor creating the Silmarils not a_blacksmith00 shoeing a horse.  I don't have to start there but I do have to end up there.  And seriously, 3000 other players all making the Silmarils isn't heroic either.  User tools to do custom artwork would be nice.  Custom meshes would be better.  Attaching scripts and effects to my custom designed stuff would be godlike.  (Rennaisence Man master of the arts and sciences, philosopher, engineer, artist, scientist)

#3 Player housing.  If I'm lord so-and-so in a game then there better damn well be castle so-and-so complete with men-at-arms, a sleepy village so-and-so and various interesting things to do there.  This is mine, not the guilds, not some abortive attempt at a forced social construct.  If I want to have a house in the city (guild or otherwise) then I should be able to do that too. There should be some reason here for me to interact with other players.  Trade would be nice. Military alliances, better.  Invasions of me or of others by the AI or by players would be interested but only when I want to participate. (King of the World, Chairman of the joint chiefs. you get the picture)

#4  Exploration.  Christopher Columbus, Marco Polo, Lewis and Clark, not a 12 year old getting to ride his bike to school by himself.

In otherwords every aspect of the game should be heroic in scope.  I'm playing this game as a fantasy break from the real world.

[Ironwood]

Murgos :  Thinking Big Since 1809.

[tazelbain]

Murgos :  Thinking Big Since 1809.

I agree, but I wondering were the MMO part of his design is.  I think it's be more of an Elder Scrolls type of design.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, it does seem a little too 'if wishes were horses'.

[Calandryll]

Murgos :  Thinking Big Since 1809.

I agree, but I wondering were the MMO part of his design is.  I think it's be more of an Elder Scrolls type of design.

Well, while I think one could argue the specifics of Murgos' post, the sentiment is the key. People want to be heroes - they want to feel important.

I think the old school of thought from many mmog developers was that players in mmogs are cogs in a wheel. They can't be heroes when there are 1000s of other players all trying to be heroes at the same time. You can see that in many of the designs.

The new school of thought (one that was building even before WoW) is that players WANT to be heroes regardless. So either find a way to give them the sense of being a hero or find yourself in a world of trouble. Being heroic doesn't just mean smashing monsters, saving princesses, and being the King. It means giving someone the sense in the game that they are important and that they are needed and appreciated. Again, I hate to bring up UXO since it got canned, but the very first sentence in our design document was "The player is the hero." That drove everything we did.

And I think that should be a driving factor in mmog design. We need to ask ourselves, "Does this make the player feel special, heroic, and important?" And if not, what can we do so that it does?

[Ironwood]

Perhaps it might be better to ask "How can we avoid getting canned this time."

For the mortgage and whatnot.

[Calandryll]

Perhaps it might be better to ask "How can we avoid getting canned this time."

Haha, I guess that was a "burn". I'd love to answer that question but I'd probably get in a lot of trouble if I did. :)

[WayAbvPar]

I would like to see some more 'visual' loot. If you kill a goblin who was wearing a leather skirt and had a spear, you'd be able to loot a leather skirt and a spear. If you killed some plate wearing brigand, you got his plate, along with what was in his backpack or fanny pouch or whatever. If you kill Archmage Doan, and he's got the hypnotic dagger equipped, you get to loot that. If he's using the staff and wearing the cape, he doesn't drop the dagger. Let crafters be able to use the leather from the skirt to to make stuff. Let the plate be able to be melted down and used towards something else.

I like this. It always bugs me that everything but item #65456345 from Loot table Delta disappears from a dead mob. Being able to break it down into crafting components (ala Guild Wars) is a good way to do it.

[dEOS]

IMHO what Blizzard demonstrated is that:
- It is possible to release a MMORPG that has a lot of content right from the start for all classes and all level ranges.
- It is possible to release a MMORPG that has almost zero bug right from the start.
- It is possible to release a MMORPG that doesn't need complete class rebalance right from the start.

I submit to you that much like time is currency in MMOs, all of the above are largely about spending time and money. Anything is possible with enough manhours. Much of Blizzard's pre-eminence is due to their willingness (and sheer financial ability) to hold games from release until they consider them to be done. This is not merely an aesthetic on their part; were they unable to do it from a business perspective, they would have to just ship.

Even fun can be reached towards via iteration, and I say that, again, without taking away from their accomplishment. They are very skilled game designers and experience designers over there. But they also operate under different constraints.

Players have no reason to care about this behind the scenes stuff--they (rightly) judge things purely off of the shipping version of the game. But I have to say, in building daydreams about the future of games out there, you should keep it in mind. I literally do not think there is a single other company in the entire industry who has the particular circumstances that Blizzard did in making WoW.

Instead, I predict that the impact of WoW will be a lot of folks trying to get comparable success by NOT making games like WoW.

Sorry for not responding sooner to that but I was *busy* IRL :)

After having seen my brother-in-law (he used to make FPS maps for a living) go from one video game company to another year after year and after hearing the horror stories he told... My take on that subject is that the video-game industry is full of amateurs. That is in a good sense and a bad sense. We have the most dedicated people, the most talented and the most creative people but also the worst managers, the worst coders and the worst communicators...

While fun and entertainment might not be objectively assessed and measured in terms of budget and time, realization and testing of a MMORPG core mechanics can certainly be.

So many MMORPGs have failed in the game engine and game mechanics department that it's not even funny as it is probably the majority of the MMORPGs out there. So many have failed in the realistic deadlines department that it is still hurting.

WoW is both good news and bad news. They have shown that making a MMORPG a successful and profitable game is possible IF given the proper amount of money and time. Any capital risk will look at the numbers and will probably seal the fate of some original projects, and on the other hand, they will be ready to shell out the money for bigger projects because they know "it can be done".

d

[dEOS]

I would like to see some more 'visual' loot. If you kill a goblin who was wearing a leather skirt and had a spear, you'd be able to loot a leather skirt and a spear. If you killed some plate wearing brigand, you got his plate, along with what was in his backpack or fanny pouch or whatever. If you kill Archmage Doan, and he's got the hypnotic dagger equipped, you get to loot that. If he's using the staff and wearing the cape, he doesn't drop the dagger. Let crafters be able to use the leather from the skirt to to make stuff. Let the plate be able to be melted down and used towards something else.

I like this. It always bugs me that everything but item #65456345 from Loot table Delta disappears from a dead mob. Being able to break it down into crafting components (ala Guild Wars) is a good way to do it.

AC1 had (and probably still has) something in that vein.

[Ironwood]

Perhaps it might be better to ask "How can we avoid getting canned this time."

Haha, I guess that was a "burn". I'd love to answer that question but I'd probably get in a lot of trouble if I did. :)

Merely jest.  No offence intended, of course.

[Nija]

I think Schild is saying he wants Street Fighter/ Mortal Kombat/ Ninja Gaidain gameplay in his MMOs.  Instead of "Push button for riposote" you'd  ^ > < b+a on a gamepad.  Basic attacks on 'teh buttons'  & specials from button combos.

I'm old (ok not really) but without a real joystick those combos have always sucked, IMO. I'll stick with buttons, thx. 

I think what he's saying is more like God of War combat instead of like Street Fighter combat. I agree, Street Fighter combat would wear you out pretty quickly. I think what he's getting at is the next gen consoles assume you've got a broadband connection, so we can finally have packet streams that are > 4kps or whatever the acceptable 'kinda playable for people on modems' limit is now.

I always think back to playing the first dungeon in Zelda 2 when I was young. Zelda 2 is the overhead map / side scroller when you get to the action one. In the first dungeon, on your way to get the key to open up the 2nd half of the dungeon,you fought these orange knights who could attack high and attack low. They could also BLOCK high, and block low. You could do the same. What I remember about this is that it was more challenging to defeat one of those knights, in '89 or whenever that was, than it is to defeat a level 58 stone gargoyle in WoW. I believe if I fired up Zelda 2 via rom right now, that will still hold true.

I think I would rather have "low attack" "medium attack" and "high attack" and the ability to jump/block them rather than have an autoattack button and 10 different hotkeys to press to do different, special things. A "lock target" ability just to switch it to circle strafe mode around that target, but your slashes could still hit other things. Etc. I just think there is more to that kind of combat than my Defensive Warrior's old mantra of autoattack, bleed attack, sunder armor (repeat 4), shield bash, and mash on the Revenge hotkey so I get a free shot in every 5 seconds when I block/parry/dodge.

[Pococurante]

Let crafters be able to use the leather from the skirt to to make stuff. Let the plate be able to be melted down and used towards something else.

I've always liked this idea too.  Back in my sphere/RunUo days I used to code in true assembly/disassembly recipes for all my items.  The better the skill the more finished components they could unwrap.  The trick of course is to balance it all so that farming loot for resources is not more rewarding that gathering to begin with.

[Murgos]

Murgos :  Thinking Big Since 1809.

I agree, but I wondering were the MMO part of his design is.  I think it's be more of an Elder Scrolls type of design.

Hey, if your not watching where your going you are just going to end up going in circles.  I guess it's the era of when I started playing games but to me the concept of an MMO is real people replace the NPC's.  The problem is that people don't want to be dirt farmers or spawn camped for thier phat lewts.

[WindupAtheist]

Don't just say "Well, 16 people=more damage than 8 people!" and throw them up against a guy with lots of hit points.  Give them two separate paths to take which intersect at points but otherwise test each group differently.  Don't just throw different kinds of enemies at each group- maybe one group has to solve a puzzle or participate in a movement-based challenge (bring 30 of these from here to here in 15 seconds, go!)

I like this a lot.  Does anyone remember the part in Final Fantasy 3 where you had to build 3 full parties out of your entire roster of characters, and move them down 3 different paths that all occurred in the same dungeon?  One party would have to pull the lever that would open the door for the second, and so forth.  Give me something like that, but with the production values and "Whoa, cool!" factor of the Deadmines in WoW.  (Because the bar has been raised, and anything less than those production values is now strictly second rate, you got that?)  I want the group that's on the floor above me to push down a boulder that splatters the big ugly ogre that my group would otherwise have had a very hard time with, stuff like that.

And when everyone comes together at the end, give them a boss who's challenging and interesting, not just time-consuming.  Give me a boss that teleports, that doesn't want to stand toe-to-toe, that makes himself invisible, that summons help.  If the abilities to thwart teleportation, reveal the invisible, and so forth are well-distributed throughout your player classes, and if putting those abilities to their best use requires more strategic thinking than just holding down a hotkey, you're going to have a much more interesting battle than we're used to.

Nija's on the right track with the analogy regarding the orange knights in Zelda 2.  Those guys were fun because they could counter any (well, more like both) of your attacks, and you could counter theirs, forcing you to 'fence' with them a bit.  So far no MMO has given us that sort of enemy.  They keep giving us enemies with no fencing ability, just a load of hitpoints and a willingness to keep running into our swords for hours on end.

[penfold]

I think Schild is saying he wants Street Fighter/ Mortal Kombat/ Ninja Gaidain gameplay in his MMOs.  Instead of "Push button for riposote" you'd  ^ > < b+a on a gamepad.  Basic attacks on 'teh buttons'  & specials from button combos.

I'm old (ok not really) but without a real joystick those combos have always sucked, IMO. I'll stick with buttons, thx. 

I hope that's not what he's saying, because it's fucking retarded.

Imagine your 3 hour MC raid with that kind of shit.  Instead of pressing 7, you have a combo for backstab.  Your hands would BREAK after the first hour.

Ive played slash-em up/platformers for 3 hours, God of War, Devil May Cry and even the old Rune game for the PC come to mind. Ive also played Soul Cali 2 and Street Fighter for hours too.

I want a mmo fighting game, or a mmo fps, mmo platformer or mmo er.... "GTA". The mmorpg genre is dead to me.