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Topic: 1 million of you are keeping Blizzard in money hats. (Read 94703 times)
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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I like WoW because it proved Jessical Mulligan was right: just give me a fun game. All the introspective analysis and neverending BS we spewed for years on this forum and its predecessors, all the circle-jerking fluff that got passed around MUD-DEV means nothing. Blizzard swept all that shit away: those ideas and people (unless they are willing to adapt rather radically to the new world) are now just plain irrelevant. Thank God for that. Just give me a fun game.
This makes me wish I'd archived every dev post ever made on the pre-release, pre-beta SWG boards so I could post them here and make this statement even more godlike than it already is. Um. While I agree with you 100% (because when you talk about games, you're not a retard), I still think you're being a little pot and kettle. You used to write REAMS and REAMS and REAMS for the SWG boards. You seemed to like a lot of ideas that were going into the game at the time. (Back then I didn't know you, but I followed the boards and you were certainly one of the vocal ones.) How then did it all turn to shit the minute it was released ? As to WoW - it's a fantastic and fun and immersive and interesting game. Which I have no interest in playing whatsoever after a 14 day break. It's weird how that's happened, since the wife stills loves it. We reckon it's the priest mini-game and the socialisation that she likes. I've just totally gone off it.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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dEOS
Terracotta Army
Posts: 91
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I like WoW because it proved Jessical Mulligan was right: just give me a fun game. All the introspective analysis and neverending BS we spewed for years on this forum and its predecessors, all the circle-jerking fluff that got passed around MUD-DEV means nothing. Blizzard swept all that shit away: those ideas and people (unless they are willing to adapt rather radically to the new world) are now just plain irrelevant. Thank God for that. Just give me a fun game.
While I admit that WoW is certainly a fun game, I would prefer to establish proofable check points for MMORPG. Because judging "fun factor" is an endless and futile task. IMHO what Blizzard demonstrated is that: - It is possible to release a MMORPG that has a lot of content right from the start for all classes and all level ranges. - It is possible to release a MMORPG that has almost zero bug right from the start. - It is possible to release a MMORPG that doesn't need complete class rebalance right from the start. Every MMORPG I have played before and after WoW seemed the result of amateurs compared to WoW. Blizzard demonstrated once again that every one of their games is top quality. Making every potential buyer look forward for their games. Even the most casual ones. And this is where the money is.
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CoH - Freedom WoW - EU Servers - Sargeras [French-PvP]
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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In Tri's defense, Ironwood, if you remember he backed off and stopped posting before even pre-public beta when it was obvious Raph was leaning more towards Callisto and all the other Hardcore "PVE & RP ONLY" players and combat was getting the short shrift.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Alkiera
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1556
The best part of SWG was the easy account cancellation process.
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IMHO what Blizzard demonstrated is that: - It is possible to release a MMORPG that has a lot of content right from the start for all classes and all level ranges.
Which makes me wonder why they've been racing to provide more and more content for the high level game, if there was so much 'right from the start'. - It is possible to release a MMORPG that has almost zero bug right from the start.
*insert video of koreans making fun of loot lag here* - It is possible to release a MMORPG that doesn't need complete class rebalance right from the start.
Again, curious how pretty much every patch has a major alteration of one class, and the dev-released 'Battle Plans' say they are continuing to go thru the classes to try to get closer to balance. Every MMORPG I have played before and after WoW seemed the result of amateurs compared to WoW. Blizzard demonstrated once again that every one of their games is top quality. Making every potential buyer look forward for their games. Even the most casual ones. And this is where the money is.
What it's really proved, is that the drugs Blizzard packs in their game-boxes seem to make their fans explode into hyperbole. Yes, Blizzard tends to make decent quality games, but only relative to the rest of the industry. They are not the paragons of perfection you make them out to be... they're just okay. Alkiera
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"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney. I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer
Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
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ahoythematey
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1729
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In Tri's defense, Ironwood, if you remember he backed off and stopped posting before even pre-public beta when it was obvious Raph was leaning more towards Callisto and all the other Hardcore "PVE & RP ONLY" players and combat was getting the short shrift.
Caella, not callisto, and I remember well leaving those boards for good the moment they began the outcasting revisions. I admit, though, I may have never actuallystuck with the game, considering I have always had a problem with some of the things they were devoting resources, and the fact that Jedi's were UO necromancy for the longest time before becoming the catass-badge profession. Also, as far as I know smugglers are still incomplete as a profession, which was what I had originally wanted to devote my time towards. Fuck the gaming gods in their ivory towers, I just want the fun pvp you motherfuckers keep promising. Leave the roleplayers to their chatrooms and MUDs until you can actually integrate PvP and roleplaying without the infiniwhine of the name-nazis. /diatribe
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Triforcer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4663
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I like WoW because it proved Jessical Mulligan was right: just give me a fun game. All the introspective analysis and neverending BS we spewed for years on this forum and its predecessors, all the circle-jerking fluff that got passed around MUD-DEV means nothing. Blizzard swept all that shit away: those ideas and people (unless they are willing to adapt rather radically to the new world) are now just plain irrelevant. Thank God for that. Just give me a fun game.
This makes me wish I'd archived every dev post ever made on the pre-release, pre-beta SWG boards so I could post them here and make this statement even more godlike than it already is. Um. While I agree with you 100% (because when you talk about games, you're not a retard), I still think you're being a little pot and kettle. You used to write REAMS and REAMS and REAMS for the SWG boards. You seemed to like a lot of ideas that were going into the game at the time. (Back then I didn't know you, but I followed the boards and you were certainly one of the vocal ones.) How then did it all turn to shit the minute it was released ? This is a fair criticism. But most of the time, my posts were railing against the very idea of pseudo-psychological theorems as the basis for gameplay, not pushing another pseudo-psychological theorem as the basis for the gameplay I wanted. By the time the 100 person Beta1 rolled around (invited but didn't participate, did participate briefly in still-closed beta2) it was like I was in a college freshman psychology class. For instance, after learning what the lay of the land would be pvp-wise, I advocated servers that were in design not unlike what the WoW PvP servers are now. Even if your design is PvE, some people want PvP. Why not give them a few servers? Forum monkeys, in addition to the standard "omg take all r teh resources" argument, would argue things like "Adding PvP servers will only contribute to a general atmosphere of divisiveness on those servers. This, in turn, will gradually poison the attitudes of everyone else, leading to decreased fun for all" or "PKs caused unlimited grief and misery in UO, why should we reward them now?" These arguments, while not coming directly from the devs, seemed to be taken seriously by them. The entire concept of Outcasting in the original PvP design was if you killed a neutral in PvP lands, they could remove your ability to initiate PvP forever, BUT if they forgave you you could do it again. UO touched your genitals in a non-consensual manner, but by god now you can MAKE THE PKS PAY by holding their wretched ability to pvp OVER THEIR HEAD. And this will heal your soul. If the goal was taking out non-consensual pvp, they would have done it altogether (which they did, fairly early in the pre-beta process). But the goal was you being punished for some 12 year old you've never met killing a PvE board warrior's miner. To this day, I regard the concept of Outcasting as epicly Freudian in design and the high water mark of the UO therapy movement in MMOS- no other proposed MMO system has ever been so obviously designed to cater to grief and rage filled burn victims. So, in sum, I left when the desire for a good game got left in the shuffle. SWG wasn't an end unto itself, it was a transitory mechanism to heal all wrongs in MMOGdom forever through the sheer brilliance of its design. I said as much on countless occassions, and when it was obvious the three credits of Intro Psych crowd of posters won I left. EDIT: I should say I did have and still have a very high opinion of Raph. He took on his shoulders some of the worst excesses of UO and I think this game was his attempt at atonement. He is a brilliant guy and I think if he goes into something saying "I want to make a fun game" rather than "I want to split the MMO atom and change everything forever" he definitely could.
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All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu. This is the truth! This is my belief! At least for now...
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schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
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People shouldn't be allowed to say "We just want fun x" anymore. It's too profound. Also, it's not constructive.
Now I have to go outside because I need oxygen.
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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I like WoW because it proved Jessical Mulligan was right: just give me a fun game. All the introspective analysis and neverending BS we spewed for years on this forum and its predecessors, all the circle-jerking fluff that got passed around MUD-DEV means nothing. Blizzard swept all that shit away: those ideas and people (unless they are willing to adapt rather radically to the new world) are now just plain irrelevant. Thank God for that. Just give me a fun game.
This makes me wish I'd archived every dev post ever made on the pre-release, pre-beta SWG boards so I could post them here and make this statement even more godlike than it already is. Wanna make out? Anyway, I like Koster as well, I hope he is able to adapt to the WoW landscape, and I don't want to seem like I'm taking a potshot here (it's intended more as a smelling salt), but posts like this one pretty much sum up the arrogant and misguided conventional wisdom of the pre-WoW era (the fact that it was broadly defending SWG, or at least its design ideals, as the summary game puts it over the top): No offense to Bliz folks, but, uh, no, WoW is not a summary game. I leave it as an exercise for you guys to make a list of all the lessons since 1996 and all the important features since 1996 that they are leaving out. http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=735.msg15063#msg15063WoW is the summary game. It showed us which of the old rules were just wrong, and which of the old important features were dead wood. The old-view "we must be radically innovative and extremely broad or the player base will shrink" opinion is also in evidence there. There are now four million reasons to believe that's not true. WoW is the model. Yes, it could be better if some things were added to it, but it is the Model T of MMOGs. Deepthinkers of the MMOG world: go forth invent automatic transmissions and heated seats! But if you come back with one more goddamn dog sled or unicycle, your're fired.
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 08:12:15 AM by El Gallo »
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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* Raises his fist *
What about art and vision?
With the low polygon count of WoW this game would be stillborn if it were not backed by a great artistic vision. The city Thunderbluff, for example, to me is such a spectacular projection of North American Native culture into a fantasy game I wonder if it will garner attention some day that transcends the game itself. In games like this ask yourself - what zones - if any - you have visited stood out in your mind? Several dramatic images come to mind with WoW, including the racial starting areas for the Horde.
When I look at this game I see themes (racial culture, horde vs. alliance conflict, geography) WoW has been very consistent, disciplined and ingenious at reinforcing.
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 08:13:19 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
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When I look at it I see Warcraft III. Which is to say, 6 years ago the graphics would have impressed me. As it stands, this style is no longer original. It's something the artists at Blizzard were comfortable with, yet still managed to have less than inspired attack animations.
On the flipside, the graphics in WoW say game. Which WoW achieves. It is a game. The graphics in EQII for example, say "virtual world" ... which it damn near fails at. Had the graphics in WoW leaned toward the realistic, it wouldn't have worked. There are no lies in what WoW gives you. It's one half of a virtual world. The graphics are fitting for that.
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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Had the graphics in WoW leaned toward the realistic, it wouldn't have worked. There are no lies in what WoW gives you. It's one half of a virtual world. The graphics are fitting for that.
I mostly agree with what your saying except this angle. When you look at the cinematic footage for WoW - I am blown away. If WoW could be made some day with the caliber of graphics used in their Cinematics ... that would be impressive. Still a "game" yes - but the "game" works with expanded graphical display. The reverse is not true for EQ2. Take those graphics and reduce the polygon count - and what that game has to offer literally disappears visually. The game relies too much on textures, too llittle on a vision about the actual shape of models for gear and avatars.
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 08:21:00 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Toast
Terracotta Army
Posts: 549
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I started playing some Everquest 2 again after a stint in World of Warcraft.
World of Warcraft, while it has it's faults, has immersion, atmosphere, and art that is unparalleled. Playing Everquest 2 makes me miss some of the really cool areas (like the creepy, haunted zones)
As far as I'm concerned, take the world and the art from WoW and continue to refine the game mechanics, and you have a winner.
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A good idea is a good idea forever.
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AOFanboi
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Posts: 935
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As far as I'm concerned, take the world and the art from WoW and continue to refine the game mechanics, and you have a winner.
Four million players say they already got that. In other news, EVE recently broke the 15,000 simultaneous players mark. Why mention this? Just to point out that seeling millions isn't necessarily a good measure of success - so I contradict myself. Whatever. What, me? I'm just waiting for my WoW server to come back up. Stinking unstable game.
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Current: Mario Kart DS, Nintendogs
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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In Tri's defense, Ironwood, if you remember he backed off and stopped posting before even pre-public beta when it was obvious Raph was leaning more towards Callisto and all the other Hardcore "PVE & RP ONLY" players and combat was getting the short shrift.
Caella, not callisto, and I remember well leaving those boards for good the moment they began the outcasting revisions. Ah right. Shows how forgettable she was. What amused me most of the whole situation was when she posted that it was a game she couldn't enjoy, and was far too combat-oriented for what she wanted.  Edit: Also, on the WC3/ WOW art. All you're seeing is consistency at the design level, it's not WC3 models imported into WOW like is so often asserted. I reinstalled WC3 this past weekend because I wanted to see how the world maps there compared to the WOW maps since they were forced to some level of consistency in a 3-d world. The # of polys and the way models look is completly different. Sure, WOW doesn't use OMG EXTREME POLYCOUNT, but that makes it a hell of a lot friendlier for those of us who don't have 'bleeding-edge' or even 'cutting edge' systems. (I.e. Most of the computer-using world.) It's good business sense to design for systems people have now, not 5 years from now because then people can actually, oh I dunno, play your damn game. (You can do art/ engine upgrades a-la Luclin) If you're asserting that they should have come up wtih a completly different art concept.. well then you're just a damned fool.
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 09:17:18 AM by Merusk »
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
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I don't think they should come up with a different art style. It's the warcraft art-style as laid forth by WCIII.
I just think it looks like poo.
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WayAbvPar
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Caella Ugh. Her and her cronies killed any fun the beta boards may have been. There was some other asshat whose board name has disappeared into the mist of time that I butted heads with constantly over SCS. It was totally frustrating to write cogent posts advocating multiple characters per server, only to have this drooling imbecile defend SCS with every mispelling and malapropism in the book. I think I know how Gore and Kerry feel now.
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When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM
Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood
Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
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Triforcer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4663
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Caella Ugh. Her and her cronies killed any fun the beta boards may have been. There was some other asshat whose board name has disappeared into the mist of time that I butted heads with constantly over SCS. It was totally frustrating to write cogent posts advocating multiple characters per server, only to have this drooling imbecile defend SCS with every mispelling and malapropism in the book. I think I know how Gore and Kerry feel now. I'd give you the name, but I like you.
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All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu. This is the truth! This is my belief! At least for now...
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dEOS
Terracotta Army
Posts: 91
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What it's really proved, is that the drugs Blizzard packs in their game-boxes seem to make their fans explode into hyperbole. Yes, Blizzard tends to make decent quality games, but only relative to the rest of the industry. They are not the paragons of perfection you make them out to be... they're just okay.
Hum that comment is worse than the ones I made. You say Blizz makes decent quality games... what that qualifies other games as ? Huge stinking piles of code put together by newbies? ;) Given the magnitude of WoW compared to other games, it's amazing that so very few problems have popped out. Maybe I am in denial as an old AC2 player but after having seen how other games were crippled by bugs and balance problems, I say WoW is a little jewel of perfection. And one class revamp every other month is not total class rebalance, it's merely adjustements given how a MMORPG is such a complex thing. Given all that goodness... Add some amazing content & mood, and you have a winner.
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CoH - Freedom WoW - EU Servers - Sargeras [French-PvP]
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Margalis
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Posts: 12335
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The reverse is not true for EQ2. Take those graphics and reduce the polygon count - and what that game has to offer literally disappears visually. The game relies too much on textures, too llittle on a vision about the actual shape of models for gear and avatars.
FFXI is clearly the king as far as monster and gear shapes. (And player characters) The models in FFXI are pretty incredible overall, from Orcs and Goblins to worms to ameoba type things, from 2 handed swords to scythes to monk gloves. I always find that a lot of American-made games tend to go for a realistic look, which ends up being just bland. There is a trick to making artwork that is stylized but not wacky. For example in the old street fighter games, when Ken does a punch they draw his punching arm really big. In still shots it looks absurd, but in the game it makes sense and draws attention to that body part. People going for an overly realistic style don't realize that some stylization helps players focus on the important aspects of their characters and differentiates things more. I would say that FFXI does that better than WoW, but WoW is clearly ahead of a lot of other games. A lot of it is just basic stuff like if a guy is going to be skinny make him really skinny, if he's short make him really short, if a weapon is big make it really big, etc. Bring out the differences in things. As you mention about textures - a good test is to render the player and enemy models in all black with no shading or textures and see how recognizable they are. Manye games would fail this test rather spectacularly.
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vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
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Faggoty childlike "man" wielding an eight-foot machete for the win?
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"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild "Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
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Nija
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Posts: 2136
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FFXI is 'clearly' for queers, that's about all. Why do you defend/mention that game in every thread?
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Raph
Developers
Posts: 1472
Title delayed while we "find the fun."
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Hurm, what can I safely say here. Generic mea culpa on overthinking, blah blah blah. I do think many of the complaints against WoW are from folks that are just tired of this style of game, and are ready for the genre to branch out in new ways. Couldn't agree more. those ideas and people (unless they are willing to adapt rather radically to the new world) are now just plain irrelevant. Couldn't disagree more. Unless you want to only play WoW over and over again for the next few decades. In my mind, there's a lot of lessons still to be absorbed--and that doesn't take away at all from Blizzard's achievement. Margalis, your statements are IMHO not on target, but since I can't refute or discuss them without revealing stuff that I can't except perhaps over a beer and with you sworn to secrecy, I'll leave it at that. IMHO what Blizzard demonstrated is that: - It is possible to release a MMORPG that has a lot of content right from the start for all classes and all level ranges. - It is possible to release a MMORPG that has almost zero bug right from the start. - It is possible to release a MMORPG that doesn't need complete class rebalance right from the start.
I submit to you that much like time is currency in MMOs, all of the above are largely about spending time and money. Anything is possible with enough manhours. Much of Blizzard's pre-eminence is due to their willingness (and sheer financial ability) to hold games from release until they consider them to be done. This is not merely an aesthetic on their part; were they unable to do it from a business perspective, they would have to just ship. Even fun can be reached towards via iteration, and I say that, again, without taking away from their accomplishment. They are very skilled game designers and experience designers over there. But they also operate under different constraints. Players have no reason to care about this behind the scenes stuff--they (rightly) judge things purely off of the shipping version of the game. But I have to say, in building daydreams about the future of games out there, you should keep it in mind. I literally do not think there is a single other company in the entire industry who has the particular circumstances that Blizzard did in making WoW. Instead, I predict that the impact of WoW will be a lot of folks trying to get comparable success by NOT making games like WoW. The entire concept of Outcasting in the original PvP design was if you killed a neutral in PvP lands, they could remove your ability to initiate PvP forever, BUT if they forgave you you could do it again. UO touched your genitals in a non-consensual manner, but by god now you can MAKE THE PKS PAY by holding their wretched ability to pvp OVER THEIR HEAD. And this will heal your soul. If the goal was taking out non-consensual pvp, they would have done it altogether (which they did, fairly early in the pre-beta process). But the goal was you being punished for some 12 year old you've never met killing a PvE board warrior's miner. To this day, I regard the concept of Outcasting as epicly Freudian in design and the high water mark of the UO therapy movement in MMOS- no other proposed MMO system has ever been so obviously designed to cater to grief and rage filled burn victims. Heh. I think you're not giving outcasting enough credit, seriously. The key thing that made me really like Outcasting was that after getting your "license" revoked, you could go to a local player govt to have it reinstated within that govt's territory. Over time, territories should acquire differing flavors based on how they go about doing that. If I could have, I would have tried that without having safe areas at all. The whole thing doesn't really fit Star Wars very much though, so it was probably right for it to go away. WoW is the summary game. It showed us which of the old rules were just wrong, and which of the old important features were dead wood. The old-view "we must be radically innovative and extremely broad or the player base will shrink" opinion is also in evidence there. There are now four million reasons to believe that's not true. If WoW's a summary game, then that means you think that social gameplay is irrelevant, user creativity is irrelevant, crafting is irrelevant, housing is irrelevant, and I could go on and on. What WoW has, it has done very well. But it's far from having everything that people want, regardless of what numbers it is hitting. So I'd say it is a summary game for a particular branch, for a particular set of features. I do think that WoW definitely showed that there's a heck of a lot more people out there interested in the tried and true old gameplay model. I freely confess that I was as blind to that as everyone else, because of my biases. We should have all known given the situation in Asia--instead, we succumbed to a sort of "Korean exceptionalism" idea that was just wrong. In a way, it was a betrayal of the grand notions we always all had about how important and compelling online worlds could be. I think that's probably one of the biggest lessons to take from WoW.
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Velorath
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If WoW's a summary game, then that means you think that social gameplay is irrelevant, user creativity is irrelevant, crafting is irrelevant, housing is irrelevant, and I could go on and on. I'd say that for the most part, crafting and housing at least are irrelevant. They strike me as the kind of things devs put into MMO's just because the other MMO's have them so that they can list crafting and player housing in their list of selling points for the game. Of course I look more for the game rather than the world, and rarely have either of those things ever been made fun. WoW does have crafting though, and unlike most MMO's there are a lot of useful items that can be made through crafting.
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schild
Administrator
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Ahem, Raph, it'd be nice if SOE let you do something with everything you've taken from WoW.
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Raph
Developers
Posts: 1472
Title delayed while we "find the fun."
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I'd say that for the most part, crafting and housing at least are irrelevant. They strike me as the kind of things devs put into MMO's just because the other MMO's have them so that they can list crafting and player housing in their list of selling points for the game. Of course I look more for the game rather than the world, and rarely have either of those things ever been made fun.
WoW does have crafting though, and unlike most MMO's there are a lot of useful items that can be made through crafting.
Well, that's not why *I* put them in a game. :) WoW implements a fraction of the total possible economic game surrounding crafting... and it CAN be a very fun game taken as a whole, though it's definitely for the more strategic type of player interested in business sim-style gameplay. I also know there's a lot of people for whom forms of play surrounding housing have been fun. *shrug* Different strokes for different folks, probably.
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Margalis
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Posts: 12335
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FFXI is 'clearly' for queers, that's about all. Why do you defend/mention that game in every thread?
Why are you people so stupid? Seriously. I've said FFXI is unplayable. That said, it does many things well. Character/enemy models are certainly one of them. Is it really that hard to grasp? Apparently so - if you are incredibly fucking stupid, which you obviously are. Whether or not FFXI is a good game or for queers (as opposed to whatever game is for retards like yourself) really has nothing to do with my point, now does it? Wow, reading comprehension is difficult! I mentioned FFXI because it's on topic. The art direction in FFXI is far superior to WoW. And that's what people were talking about. Imagine that! Edit: This post isn't nearly nasty enough. The fact that you agree with WUA should be your first indication that you might be pushing the 50 IQ barrier. I like how my post had some actual content, while both you and WUA made some hand-waving arguments involving gays. You guys really add a lot to the discussion. The reason I mention FFXI is that unlike you morons I am not so fucking stupid that I can only remember one or two games in the history of MMORPGs. If you are going to try to "learn" (look it up) by looking at past games, you might as well look at the games that did what you are talking about really well. People like you are the morons that can literally only conceive of a game exactly like one today, except with blue textures. Even simply combining good ideas and implementations from different games (wow, how novel, I must be some super scientist) is way too complex and terrifying for you. Maybe I would mention AC2 sometimes as well if I could think of a single thing it did well. You may notice I mention AO sometimes as well, because that also is quite good at least in some dimensions. This thinking stuff is tough. Don't strain yourself. --- Edit 2: I like housing. Because when all is said and done I can run around and hit things in games other than MMORPGs, and in most of those the running around and hitting is strictly superior anyway. I am moving more towards virtual worlds as it becomes apparent that virtual games are just normal games at a much slower pace, where the same amount of fun you might have in 10 minutes offline takes days.
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 09:36:01 PM by Margalis »
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vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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blindy
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32
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FFXI is 'clearly' for queers, that's about all.
That didn't stop you from getting it and playing... hmm, was it a mithra thief? Anyways, WoW was fun. For like a month. Then the leveling is the same old same old. The high end PVE was incredibly boring (I went to MC once, spent 4 hours bored out of my fucking skull while we cleared the same damn trash over and fucking over and I never went back) and the PVP is pointless and zergtastic. I haven't played since like spring. Next game, please.
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Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335
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No, you are wrong. And gay. Or something. That is all. I Nija/WUA super-genius have spoken!
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vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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MrHat
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7432
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
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FFXI did housing extremely well imo. The instanced moogle house was an excellent addition and I don't see why we can have this in every MMO with 'cities'.
Hell, throw in buyable/craftable stuff for the house and you have yet another game within a game. I always said that a WoW-art chess/backgammon/checkers would be an awesome addition to this game.
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Nija
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2136
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That didn't stop you from getting it and playing... hmm, was it a mithra thief?
No, I played it, whoever you are. I play every game. I have two SWG boxes in my closet right now. Anyhow, I found this really, REALLY funny - Much of Blizzard's pre-eminence is due to their willingness (and sheer financial ability) to hold games from release until they consider them to be done. This is not merely an aesthetic on their part; were they unable to do it from a business perspective, they would have to just ship.
I'm sure Blizzard was LOADED when they delayed the War2 launch until they thought it was good enough. And I'm also sure that Sony is REALLY hurting for money, so much in fact they HAD to get SWG out the door or else they'd bomb.
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Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542
The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid
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I believe it's called a budget.
Also, I liked the look of EQ2 more than FFXI and WoW, but I had the settings jacked pretty far above "craptastic."
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Fear the Backstab! "Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion "Hell is other people." -Sartre
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schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
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And I'm also sure that Sony is REALLY hurting for money, so much in fact they HAD to get SWG out the door or else they'd bomb. Not likely. I'm not trying to defend SOE here when I say that I blame LucasArts.
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Nija
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2136
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The art direction in FFXI is far superior to WoW. And that's what people were talking about. Imagine that! I'm happy that your opinion is on topic. It seems that my opinion that FFXI sucks is also on target. That's how opinions work. FFXI 'art' was grainy ps2-lowest-common-ddenominator garbage. Honestly I can't remember it much more than that. I was too busy expanding 6 different menus in order to cast a spell or use an inventory item to bother myself with looking at the graphics. NEWAYZ Raph I wish you would take your pre-game speeches and put up or shut up. Do it or get off the pot. You say some good stuff before you really get started with games and it gets cut for various reasons. UO for example, some of that stuff was gold. Like how you could get better at musicianship by playing guitar over time (which was never implemented, the time factor) and getting worse over time (which only happened for about 10 minutes in beta). Instead, they made it so seeing someone light a campfire made you worse at music, getting better was simply how many times you doubleclicked it, skill locks within a year, and music was used to WHAT? Make dragons attack each other. Economy? Dragons leaving their lair to eat livestock sounds pretty cool even today. What do we get instead? We get 'spawn range' and 'don't wander XX from this tile'. Respawn in 5 minutes, don't sweat it.
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Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335
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I'm happy that your opinion is on topic. It seems that my opinion that FFXI sucks is also on target. That's how opinions work.
Are you out to prove how fucking stupid you are? My comments were relevant to the discussion. "FFXI sucks" isn't. [qote] I was too busy expanding 6 different menus in order to cast a spell or use an inventory item to bother myself with looking at the graphics. You really are just not getting this at all are you? How pathetic is it to fall back onto the same irrelevant tangent over and over? I didn't make FFXI nor have I played it in a year plus so your shots at it aren't accomplishing anything other than pointing out that you still can't figure out what anyone is talking about. When someone says something that turns out not to be true, for reasons I don't understand, I whine like a bitch. I'd rather have an idea that was promised to me be implemented very poorly than for someone to contradict what they said in an interview after it became apparent it wasn't going to work or be fun. I also have a very selective memory and for whatever reason can't recall that every MMORPG ever made has done the same thing with a much more restrained scope to boot.
Yup, still stupid. If you are going to bash someone for something, bashing Raph for not adding wacky features and such is a pretty poor place to start. More ideas were cut out of UO and SWG than were ever even proposed for WoW. UO and SWG are far from perfect, but it's pretty moronic to pick on those games for things like economy when there are MUCH riper targets. If anything, the problem with Raph's games is that they don't focus on a narrow subset of things to get right, instead casting a wide net that is more hit and miss. Asking Raph to deliver everything he promises is the exact opposite of sound advice. You just have no fucking clue at all do you?
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vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Raph
Developers
Posts: 1472
Title delayed while we "find the fun."
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Anyhow, I found this really, REALLY funny - Much of Blizzard's pre-eminence is due to their willingness (and sheer financial ability) to hold games from release until they consider them to be done. This is not merely an aesthetic on their part; were they unable to do it from a business perspective, they would have to just ship.
I'm sure Blizzard was LOADED when they delayed the War2 launch until they thought it was good enough. And I'm also sure that Sony is REALLY hurting for money, so much in fact they HAD to get SWG out the door or else they'd bomb. Dude... First off, you should read up on how Sony is organized. Identifying SOE with Sony the overall corporation, or with SCEA, is a mistake. Secondly, we're not talking about War2. We're talking about WoW. You may want to toss into the mix how many years WoW was in development, the size of the team that it took, and the eventual total amount it cost. If you can dig up any other figures for the cost of MMO games, that should put it in context.
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 11:45:42 PM by Raph »
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