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Author Topic: 1 million of you are keeping Blizzard in money hats.  (Read 80522 times)
Nebu
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Posts: 17613


Reply #35 on: August 30, 2005, 10:11:12 AM

Personally, I just don't get all the love for CoH and the resultant comparisons to WoW. I played CoH for three months - character design was the best ever done and combat was fun. Beyond that - nothing else to do beyond a mindnumbing grind. WoW's far from perfect, but it's kept my interest much longer than CoH just because there are so many more options of what to do and how to play. Could they add more options and improve things? Of course, but as is, its still a pretty damn good game.

I lasted about the same amount of time in both games.  I praise CoH for actually trying to bring something new to mmog's.  When playing CoH the fun starts at level 1.  Hell, you can make an entire session running around and generating characters.  On top of it all, CoH did a great job of making you feel like a superhero.

Perhaps it's that there are so many fantasy-based games out there that WoW really seemed too much like same_shit_new_shiny.  Given their budget and the brainpower behind the project, my expectations were well beyond what was delivered.  That may have tainted my perception.  It's alot like the disappointment we all felt in the SWG beta. Reviewing Blizzard's prior work, I realize that my expectations were unrealistic.


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
AOFanboi
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Posts: 935


Reply #36 on: August 30, 2005, 10:56:36 AM

I lasted about the same amount of time in both games.  I praise CoH for actually trying to bring something new to mmog's.  When playing CoH the fun starts at level 1.
And takes a break at 10.

If you want to praise CoH, I might as well praise MxO for the switchable skill system and cinematic combat - practically everything else is
"borrowed" from CoH, except it's not as balanced.

Current: Mario Kart DS, Nintendogs
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19268


Reply #37 on: August 30, 2005, 10:59:17 AM

If CoH had quests and items as interesting as WoW, it would have mitigated the grind somewhat. As it was, there was a finite number of times I could run through the same office building map to kill the foozles AGAIN. WoW got grindy in the late 40s for me, which is about twice as long as it took for CoH.


When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Shockeye
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Posts: 6668

Skinny-dippin' in a sea of Lee, I'd propose on bended knee...


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Reply #38 on: August 30, 2005, 11:13:13 AM

As it was, there was a finite number of times I could run through the same office building map to kill the foozles AGAIN.

CoH has added a greater variety of maps since release. I was quite impressed with some of them a few months ago when I played for a week or so.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #39 on: August 30, 2005, 11:35:50 AM

Cheddar makes good points.
Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987

Noob Sauce


Reply #40 on: August 30, 2005, 12:19:15 PM

This has really got me thinking; are there any alternatives to the current level up mechanic?  Irth online seems to be going the skill based route, but from all reports it is a poor game with subpar performance (I know, I know, Beta).  I no longer consider Ultima Online skill based, it went the item route a couple expansions ago.  Wish was cancelled.  Can anyone name some other games based on player "skills,"  or name any others that are in the works?

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Sairon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 866


Reply #41 on: August 30, 2005, 12:29:01 PM

Google for Darkfall and Dark and Light. They do seem awful a lot like next generation SB in every aspect, so it might not turn out that great in the end.
Stephen Zepp
Developers
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InstantAction


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Reply #42 on: August 30, 2005, 12:46:47 PM

I think WOW's success is half the hype of being a Blizzard game which gave them a lot of momentum and half that they have produced a game that has removed almost all the demotivators that are common to MMPORPGs. It's not that it's really all that good at game as much as it never makes you scream in rage and frustration. Nor for the most part does the company. About the only two issues I see are the servers are down more than average (otoh there's a lot more and they are very crowded) and the queue for the battlegrounds--which would be and probably will be solved by giving the horde an attractive evil elf race in the first expansion.

I think WOW is one of the least exciting games I've ever played, but I've never once felt so frustrated or angry at the game that I didn't want to play. And I think especially for casual gamers, getting rid of all the reasons not to play has turned out to be a lot better commercial decision than giving people reason to play.

Bingo. Nail on head. It wasn't a glass of exquisite champagne, but after drinking stale sparkling grape juice for so many years, no one really noticed that it wasn't a $500 bottle of primo bubbly either.

Rumors of War
HRose
I'm Special
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VIKLAS!


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Reply #43 on: August 30, 2005, 12:59:28 PM

Bingo. Nail on head. It wasn't a glass of exquisite champagne, but after drinking stale sparkling grape juice for so many years, no one really noticed that it wasn't a $500 bottle of primo bubbly either.
Superficial.

-HRose / Abalieno
cesspit.net
Xanthippe
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Posts: 4779


Reply #44 on: August 30, 2005, 01:28:20 PM

I don't mind level-based games all that much, provided they put in a way for people of different levels to play together.  CoH did this with sidekicking/exemplaring, which I think is an outstanding solution to the problem.

I got bored with WoW (first on a pve horde rogue at 53, next as a pvp alliance hunter at 48) to the point of not wanting to slog through the remaining levels so that I could enjoy catassing raids as endgame - no thanks.  Quit before the battlegrounds were put in.

It's not the levels so much, it's what to do during the levels.  CoH has no endgame to speak of, and Cryptic has added content.  Still, my 32ish blaster is boring to play most of the time.  Too bad they didn't put in that cool 40-50 content in the 30-40 range and stop at 40.
Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987

Noob Sauce


Reply #45 on: August 30, 2005, 01:46:55 PM

I don't mind level-based games all that much, provided they put in a way for people of different levels to play together.  CoH did this with sidekicking/exemplaring, which I think is an outstanding solution to the problem.

I got bored with WoW (first on a pve horde rogue at 53, next as a pvp alliance hunter at 48) to the point of not wanting to slog through the remaining levels so that I could enjoy catassing raids as endgame - no thanks.  Quit before the battlegrounds were put in.

It's not the levels so much, it's what to do during the levels.  CoH has no endgame to speak of, and Cryptic has added content.  Still, my 32ish blaster is boring to play most of the time.  Too bad they didn't put in that cool 40-50 content in the 30-40 range and stop at 40.

The levels create segregation, no matter how well you add mechanics such as mentoring and whatnot.  High levels get used to their powers and have to give some of it up to play with low level friends, along with skipping out on their own missions.  Lower levels do not have the range of abilities higher levels do, and in most games cannot access all the areas a higher level can.  It is more of a band aid then a solution.  I mean it was implemented in an outstanding manner, and works VERY well for COH.  But it is still a level based game, and those just "feel" different.

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #46 on: August 30, 2005, 01:59:31 PM

Quote
but after drinking stale sparkling grape juice for so many years
GRAPE DRINK, BITCH! GRAPE DRINK!

/chappelle
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #47 on: August 30, 2005, 02:01:05 PM

On his new live at the Fillmore dvd, he had a great joke about the black kid in the sunny D commercials always going for the purple stuff.
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #48 on: August 30, 2005, 02:38:19 PM

If CoH had quests and items as interesting as WoW, it would have mitigated the grind somewhat.

I don't understand this need for items. In CoH, it would have made no sense for there to be a true inventory system, anyway.

An item-based economy is just a pai in the ass most of the time.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
schild
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Posts: 60345


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Reply #49 on: August 30, 2005, 02:40:01 PM

I don't understand this need for items.

Doesn't Austerina have two giant overly powerful guns in the CoC Campaign? You damn well do understand the love of loot, you just don't want to admit it.
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #50 on: August 30, 2005, 02:49:12 PM

She has one gun, thanks.

And comparing PnP to an MMO is a horrible comparison. The item systems in MMOs are just overly random, and in the end, pointless.

You don't get the gobs and gobs of loot in a PnP game that you do in an MMO.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
schild
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Reply #51 on: August 30, 2005, 02:52:03 PM

There's something to be said about gobs and gobs of loot and a decent amount of good loot. Diablo 2 Loot System >>>>> WoW.
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #52 on: August 30, 2005, 02:55:30 PM

What are you takling about? It's the same damn loot system.

Give loot random stats, of power proportional to the difficulty of the mob which dropped it.

Give loot some random name related to the prime stats on the loot; IE "Owl" loot generally means it has intelligence on it, etc.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
schild
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Posts: 60345


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Reply #53 on: August 30, 2005, 02:59:20 PM

Diablo's loot system was fun and enjoyable.

WoW's loot system is smallminded and targeted.

In Diablo (1 and 2) there's a ton of good weapons that will get the hardest shit done efficiently. In WoW, everyone's aiming after the same 15-30 items. Blech.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #54 on: August 30, 2005, 03:07:21 PM

Loot is good for something to fiddle around with between dings.  Which is one the reasons why people don't like CoH, there is nothing to min/max between levels. 

"Me am play gods"
WayAbvPar
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Reply #55 on: August 30, 2005, 03:43:40 PM

Loot is good for something to fiddle around with between dings.  Which is one the reasons why people don't like CoH, there is nothing to min/max between levels. 

Pretty much. It would have been nice to have a few more ways to customize a character other than his appearance and when they level up, and loot allows that.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
AcidCat
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Reply #56 on: August 30, 2005, 03:49:13 PM

Loot is good for something to fiddle around with between dings.  Which is one the reasons why people don't like CoH, there is nothing to min/max between levels. 

Exactly. Getting new shinys between the level ups and new abilities keeps things a lot more interesting. In CoH, you're just killing mob after mob with the only goal in sight being those next powers every other level, and the more you progress the further away that carrot gets between bites. Getting an enhancement from a mob just doesn't compare to real, satisfying loot. Sweet, sweet loot ... and always that chance that that next mob could drop the Big One, that Epic Purple. Heck it's the appeal of gambling added to gaming, every mob is a lotto ticket ... CoH just really suffers for lack of this mechanic.

I'm sure a lot of people just don't like WoW .. no big deal ... but the " I'm Too Good For This Kind of Mass Market Product" attitude is pretty stale. Because of course no successful game actually deserves that success, right? Anything with that wide an appeal .. well ... ITS THE MCDONALDS OF MMORPGS, RIGHT? YOU WOULDN"T BE CAUGHT DEAD AT A FUCKING MCDONALDS, SOMEONE MIGHT SEE YOU MINGLING WITH THE COMMONERS!!

 :-D
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19268


Reply #57 on: August 30, 2005, 03:55:42 PM

OTOH, I am reasonably sure that there aren't little remnants of WoW lodged deep in my colon. I am not so sure about McDonald's.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Margalis
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Posts: 12335


Reply #58 on: August 30, 2005, 04:39:03 PM

I agree with what other people have said: WoW is never awful or drives you crazy, which is in itself an accomplishment.

However, I would rather play a game with higher highs and lower lows. When the negatives build up too much, I'll stop. My problem with WoW is that I have no compulsion to play. There is no disincentive, but there is no real incentive either.

I compare that to a game like AO. I played AO free for a week or so and it was genuinely enjoyable. FFXI was enjoyable until it just got too slow, especially with all the grouping problems. (AKA, wait around forever for a White Mage) But both of those games had big plusses that WoW lacks.

FFXI had great art and animation, the overall world was very well realized, and it has a lot of "oh cool!" moments. (Like the first time you see an elemental just ominously floating there looking scary)

AO had incredible character customization. Just levelling up in the newbie junkyward area I probably went through 3 or 4 totally different looks. And I was *very* impressed when I went outside the town and saw a guild grouping up - about 50 different players all of which looked really different. Some guys in huge spiky armor, some in long robes, color coordination everywhere, etc.

I didn't have any reason to stop playing WoW other than that I just didn't feel like playing it. Nothing reached out and grabbed me.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8980


Reply #59 on: August 30, 2005, 04:47:39 PM

Loot is good for something to fiddle around with between dings.  Which is one the reasons why people don't like CoH, there is nothing to min/max between levels. 

I didn't like repetitive missions.  If I gave a fuck about collecting items, an economy, or min/maxing I'd still be playing FFXI.  Making shiny shit drop from mobs does fuck all to improve gameplay for me, and it certainly doesn't fit in a superhero game.  Trying to get all the best weapons and shit is just one more grind added on to the game, especially if it has PVP in it.  Right now CoH just has the arenas, but should I ever go back once CoV comes out and real PVP is added, the last thing I'm going to want is have to grind through levels and try to get whatever items put me on a close-to-level playing field with the catasses.
Fabricated
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Reply #60 on: August 30, 2005, 06:29:33 PM

I'm sure a lot of people just don't like WoW .. no big deal ... but the " I'm Too Good For This Kind of Mass Market Product" attitude is pretty stale. Because of course no successful game actually deserves that success, right? Anything with that wide an appeal .. well ... ITS THE MCDONALDS OF MMORPGS, RIGHT? YOU WOULDN"T BE CAUGHT DEAD AT A FUCKING MCDONALDS, SOMEONE MIGHT SEE YOU MINGLING WITH THE COMMONERS!!

Made red and big for truth.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
schild
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Reply #61 on: August 30, 2005, 06:32:22 PM

I don't see it as that. I see more people going with the "Too much Everquest, too little Diablo."
Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8980


Reply #62 on: August 30, 2005, 07:23:14 PM

I don't see it as that. I see more people going with the "Too much Everquest, too little Diablo."

As much as I like Diablo, it's just runnng around whacking guys for random loot.  Maybe to you, adding that to an MMO is like getting chocolate in your peanut butter or something, but I'd just rather wait for someone to make Diablo III or something close to it (not Champions of Norrath).  Loot in PnP games is fun because you don't constantly have other people around decked out in similar or better gear.  Loot in MMO's just lead to fashion shows and grinding for gear.
schild
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Reply #63 on: August 30, 2005, 07:35:12 PM

Goddamnit, my reply got eaten. Anyway, City of Heroes is a fashion show without loot.

When were MMOGs not fashion shows anyway? The first thing most people do when they see a high level person is inspect them. I mean really, saying avatars are more than condensed vanity is missing the point. These games we're discussing aren't about skill. They're about being social (in some backasswards way) and putting yourself on parade.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 07:42:29 PM by schild »
Shockeye
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Skinny-dippin' in a sea of Lee, I'd propose on bended knee...


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Reply #64 on: August 30, 2005, 07:45:40 PM

When were MMOGs not fashion shows anyway? The first thing most people do when they see a high level person is inspect them. They're about putting yourself on parade.

I hardly ever inspect anyone, I just don't care what they're wearing and I've never "put myself on parade" in an online game. Maybe the way I'm playing is wrong.
Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8980


Reply #65 on: August 30, 2005, 07:53:12 PM

Goddamnit, my reply got eaten. Anyway, City of Heroes is a fashion show without loot.

When were MMOGs not fashion shows anyway? The first thing most people do when they see a high level person is inspect them. I mean really, saying avatars are more than condensed vanity is missing the point. These games we're discussing aren't about skill. They're about being social (in some backasswards way) and putting yourself on parade.

At least in CoH though, how good your characters look is determined by how well you designed them rather than by how much time you invested in grinding loot, or how lucky you were in drops.

And yeah, most MMOs right now are fashion shows (and don't get me wrong, I don't think WoW is any better in that respect than any other MMO), but I was under the impression that you wanted to get out of the first generation of MMOs at some point rather than just accept them for what they are.  Loot grinding is just of the things that keeps these games more about who's got the most free time, rather than skill.
schild
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Reply #66 on: August 30, 2005, 08:03:58 PM

I don't know. I grinded for loot in Soul Caliber 2.

AND IT WAS WONDERFUL.
Shockeye
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Skinny-dippin' in a sea of Lee, I'd propose on bended knee...


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Reply #67 on: August 30, 2005, 08:06:44 PM

I don't know. I grinded for loot in Soul Caliber 2.

AND IT WAS WONDERFUL.

All I care about is unlocking characters, I don't give much care to what outfits they wear.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


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Reply #68 on: August 30, 2005, 08:09:49 PM

I don't know. I grinded for loot in Soul Caliber 2.

AND IT WAS WONDERFUL.

All I care about is unlocking characters, I don't give much care to what outfits they wear.

That's what I said until I started playing DOA2 again. Also, unlocking outfits in games like God of War and RE4 is pretty damned fun. That said, MMOGs suck really due to the fact that all the games I've mentioned are completely 100% skill based. Well, RE4 is about 90% skill based while most MMOGs actually take less skill than opening a garage door manually.
Rasix
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I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #69 on: August 30, 2005, 08:21:40 PM

Ohh boy, we've come to MMORPGs take no skill now?  We've resorted to that.  Mmm k. 

Time to use an old standby: I disagree with what you said. 

-Rasix
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