Auto Assault delayed until 2006.

[Sky]

I don't believe EQ or WoW did any such thing as slow the genre or kill it.

Nobody said that. Fucked it.

Do you think that if a new game came out that satisfied everything you want it would be popular?

No.

You may not be most people, but that doesn't matter.

True and true.

My guess is that if a game comes out that satisfies those that hate WoW, that game will have lackluster sales.

Agreed. I don't play mmorpgs anymore because Planetside is getting long in the tooth and is imo the only one remotely worth playing (with WoW being fun for a few months, admittedly...but teh sux after that ie: 60 raiding).

It is the same problem I have with restaurants.

Drove me to learn how to cook.

I could make a similar comparison to music, art, etc.

Indeed. My two favorite discs currently are the new Mars Volta and Hound Dog Taylor's first album. I define eclectic.

The jist?  If you are not standard or normal, you will never get everything you want. 

Quite well understood, yet it will not keep me from expecting great things. That gives me that bitter edge. Or to quote myself: "My penchant for optimism is the reason I'm a pessimist."

This post brought to you by SB Technologies, LLC.

[Pococurante]

Thank gawd for your garish avatar.  Otherwise I would have thought Bruce or DV were back.

[Trippy]

Meh, sounds basically like E&B. In E&B you had to have the enemy withing in certain targeting area, but that was it. Just keep them in the center of the screen and spam away. Seriously who thinks that rolling hits and misses makes sense?

Edit: It sounds like a real lack of imagination. I could think of something better after watching Road Warrior and playing Car Wars for an hour. It's like, let's take a car driving/shooting game then strip out everything interesting and add in Elf-equivalents.

Yes the combat is very much like E&B. It is definitely not a "simulation"-style game like, say, Interstate '76.

[Dren]

Sorry, I should have ended my post with, "And none of this matters, but felt good saying!"

It did feel good actually.  :-D

Continue to expect more...

[Hoax]

He was a victim of circumstance. As are we all.

Just finished that book last week, great read and I cried at the end when faced with the futility of life.



@Dren:  I'm willing to agree with you that NCsoft just did not have the balls to put skill into the game, but reserve the right to call bullshit on the idea that a MMO that requires skill would automatically fail money-hat wise.  The fact of the matter is though, making it calculated hit rolls does nothing to excuse a lack of creativity and an overall super simplification of the entire fucking game.  EVE has hit rolls, but the combat is tremendously cerebral as each weapon has tracking speeds and is only effective at certain ranges (with a minimum and maximum).  The idea that all vehicles have the same weapon firearcs alone proves the people designing this are fucking assheads.

Pander to the fucking stupid general public all you want, I'm used to that, but try not to be less competent then a tiny Icelandic studio when you are FUCKING NCSOFT rolling in wads of ill gotten korean money (kens?).

[Llava]

I think it is safe to say that most people don't want to rely on their skill, but rather prefer the autoattack and hit/miss systems we have today.

I would disagree.

I think most MMOG players are defined by that sentence, but most "people" are actually driven away from MMOGs because of the relatively shitty combat.  Even CoH's combat, which is very good for a MMOG, looks pretty lame compared to some other nonMMOG games.  It's hard to show it to your friend who isn't into MMOG and make them think "That looks awesome, I will go buy that now."

Course, if I could jump up and knock a flying enemy out of the sky by jumping on his back and stomping on his head, then rip off his wings when he hit the ground, I think we'd attract some more people.. even if you had to push more than one button to do that.

[HaemishM]

The idea that the player would have to push more than 1 button to execute something is anathema to MMOG devs, it would seem. At first, this could be excused as trying to make the game lag tolerant. Nowadays it's just fucking lazy. Of course, we hear the same kind of excuses on the opposite end for why MMOG's can't be turn-based, but blah. It's just lack of imaginative thinking.

I'm willing to agree with you that NCsoft just did not have the balls to put skill into the game, but reserve the right to call bullshit on the idea that a MMO that requires skill would automatically fail money-hat wise.

Of course it's bullshit. I think the problem lies in that the money people are aiming for success that is at least equal to the current #2 on the MMOG subscription list, at whatever time they are allocating money. They want to have at least as many subscribers as the second-most popular MMOG at the time. Of course, that kind of thinking blinds one to the fact that you don't have to even scratch the top 10 in subscriber numbers to still have a profitable MMOG. I've heard estimates that every AAA MMOG title out there could be profitable with as little as 50,000 subscribers. But to investment people (read: soulless cockmunching moneyfarmers), a profitable 50k is not nearly as attractive as a profitable 200k, even though the percentages of profit are probably very similar since the operating costs on the 200k are exponentially larger than on 50k.

But then it's all numbers to the money men, which is why they are money men.

[Pococurante]

It's hard to show it to your friend who isn't into MMOG and make them think "That looks awesome, I will go buy that now."

Is "friend" a console player?

There are many things a console can do that seem to require quantum servers and negative ping code for a MOG.

[Hoax]

Is "friend" a console player?

There are many things a console can do that seem to require quantum servers and negative ping code for a MOG.

Replace console with:  fps or rts and you'll get the same result.  Hell the combat in Diablo looks more interesting then your average MMO fight.  Oh and when they find out you have to repeat the process 6,000 times to gain a "level" if they haven't played PnP dont expect them to not want to laugh or hit you for wasting a big chunk of their day.

[Krakrok]

Course, if I could jump up and knock a flying enemy out of the sky by jumping on his back and stomping on his head, then rip off his wings when he hit the ground, I think we'd attract some more people.. even if you had to push more than one button to do that.

And this is why video games are still in the stone age (and MMOGs are still in pre-history). When people can climb trees in games, get their arm blown off and shoot you in the face with the other hand afterwards, or just plain interact with their environment (like you describe) beyond dev pre-created use points then we'll talk. It's all black and white right now. You are either alive or you are dead in a video game. All actions are pre-defined by the devs beforehand. There is no interesting middle ground. Look at Battlefield 2 or games like Killzone. They have the eye candy but it's the same old tired game. Oh wow they have ragdolls now. Even that is old. Can the medic drag the wounded guy to some cover? Can you dig a fox hole? Hell, you can't grab a ride from a tank in Battlefield 2 (even WWIIOL had that years ago?) can you? Would a MMOG ever think to have deformable terrain spells like the Volcano in Sacrifice?

AutoAssault might have destroyable terrain but that's the only thing it has going for it as far as I can tell. So much for progress.

[Llava]

It's hard to show it to your friend who isn't into MMOG and make them think "That looks awesome, I will go buy that now."

Is "friend" a console player?

Doesn't matter.  Could be a console gamer, could be just a non-MMOG gamer, might not even be a gamer at all.

[Pococurante]

I think it matters.  People who like high action/shooters tend to have a much higher bar for combat mechanics.  People with less or no preference on twitch/hand knowledge care much less, if it matters to them at all.

[Hoax]

This post stolen from the autoassault boards (I wanted to see what they were talking about over there but nobody who knows anything is on the main forum it seemed) sums up my thoughts on MMO's nicely:

Lack of fun.
I've only recently started playing MMO's cause my friends have. MMO's seem to be made up of bonuses/incentives etc that add to other games, but lack any actual gameplay or fun.

ie levelling up, skill trees, getting new items, new abilities, professions etc are all nice bonuses you can add to a game to increase the longevity, but shouldnt be the core 'gameplay'.

Take away all those things from an mmo and the 'core gameplay' you have left is 'kill x of mob y', 'collect x of item y'...

Call me crazy but im gonna compare this game to GTA. It has alot of the same levelling, collecting, professions to skillup (although not to create things), quests to go on, semi-persistant world to explore...

...But it's also fun. It's fun to just hoon around, dodging between traffic, running people over, escaping from the cops, finding things to jump off. I guess that's where the twitch aspect comes in. It's fun to level your own personal skill as opposed to watching a bar fill up (it's like watching grass grow, or paint dry). Sure the bar can add to the gameplay that's already there, but if the gameplay is the bar, it feels a little too shallow and unsatsfying for my liking.

[Llava]

I think it matters.  People who like high action/shooters tend to have a much higher bar for combat mechanics.  People with less or no preference on twitch/hand knowledge care much less, if it matters to them at all.

I believe most people who are at all familiar with games (not necessarily gamers, but someone who grew up in this generation and has been exposed to the genre) expect them to focus largely on combat, and they expect that combat to be fun.  If it's not, why are you playing?  It's not like anything else matters- it's just a game.

[Pococurante]

Well not trying to beat this into the ground but for some people fire & forget combat is prefectly fine - they're there for social reasons or get most of their thrills in some other minigame.

[Hoax]

Not trying to beat this into the ground but fire & forget might be perfectly fine but it sure has hell can't be called fun for its sake alone.  Those pedestrian combat systems work fine when the combat is a meaningless timesink you wade through to pick up the next piece of shiney loot.  But there is no rule that says you can't get loot from combat that is also fun, just for some reason nobody has ever set a game up with that system.

I would wager the true reason which I dont see mentioned often enough is that fps combat inherently needs AI that are 10 million times smarter then fire & forget mobs.  Otherwise its just going to be pathing, aim, range, whatever exploitation by the players and the combat becomes even more moronic then that of <insert EQ clone here>.

[Sky]

Not to beat this into the ground, but NDAs suck. I guess they are totally necessary in some cases.

I would wager the true reason which I dont see mentioned often enough is that fps combat inherently needs AI that are 10 million times smarter then fire & forget mobs.

Reaperbot is how old?

[Llava]

Well not trying to beat this into the ground but for some people fire & forget combat is prefectly fine - they're there for social reasons or get most of their thrills in some other minigame.

Which is why MMOGs have an audience at all.

But there's a reason that audience is still a niche, albeit a comparitively large niche.

[Pococurante]

WoW just about doubled it...

Point, line, trend - and the trend is up.  People like gaming with people.  People like socializing with people.  What we call a MOG today will probably have a very different name in just a few years.  I drive a car, not a flitter or buggy.

[Hoax]

What does being social have to do with boring combat?  Every fps I've ever played has developed a very robust player community.  You know the ones that have brought us teamspeak and player run gamer radio stations that shoutcast important ladder matches.  Not to mention irc drama.  These are games with absolutely zero persistence of any kind.  Yet they often have better communities then the raid guild felatio totem poles I run into when playing games like EQ or WoW.

Yes, when you were forced to look at your spellbook and do nothing for several minutes between every fight in EQ1 you got allot of pointless shooting the shit done, but I would hardly consider that an endorsement of manditory soul crushing downtime, would you?

[Margalis]

The core gameplay is often the worst aspect of MMORPGs. In way this is true of some console and PC RPGs as well.

[Pococurante]

What does being social have to do with boring combat?

It means many, probably more, people don't consider the event boring just because the combat is simplistic.  Ever been to a rock concert?  Did it completely suck because it wasn't you on the stage?  Maybe you did some air guitar out in the audience but did that make or break your experience?

For a lot of folks being online in a game is a lot like a rock concert.  They're there for the experience and to be with their friends.

I appreciate that's not enough for you.  Just making an observation that concert promoters make a lot more money selling to non-musicians.

[Alkiera]

Lack of fun.
I've only recently started playing MMO's cause my friends have. MMO's seem to be made up of bonuses/incentives etc that add to other games, but lack any actual gameplay or fun.

ie levelling up, skill trees, getting new items, new abilities, professions etc are all nice bonuses you can add to a game to increase the longevity, but shouldnt be the core 'gameplay'.

Take away all those things from an mmo and the 'core gameplay' you have left is 'kill x of mob y', 'collect x of item y'...

Call me crazy but im gonna compare this game to GTA. It has alot of the same levelling, collecting, professions to skillup (although not to create things), quests to go on, semi-persistant world to explore...

...But it's also fun. It's fun to just hoon around, dodging between traffic, running people over, escaping from the cops, finding things to jump off. I guess that's where the twitch aspect comes in. It's fun to level your own personal skill as opposed to watching a bar fill up (it's like watching grass grow, or paint dry). Sure the bar can add to the gameplay that's already there, but if the gameplay is the bar, it feels a little too shallow and unsatsfying for my liking.

Can we sticky this somewhere?  It's too long for my .sig...

What does being social have to do with boring combat?

It means many, probably more, people don't consider the event boring just because the combat is simplistic.  Ever been to a rock concert?  Did it completely suck because it wasn't you on the stage?  Maybe you did some air guitar out in the audience but did that make or break your experience?

For a lot of folks being online in a game is a lot like a rock concert.  They're there for the experience and to be with their friends.

I appreciate that's not enough for you.  Just making an observation that concert promoters make a lot more money selling to non-musicians.

And they make next to no money when trying to promote middle school band recitals.... The only people who come are parents and teachers.

Alkiera

[Pococurante]

Ah.  Nothing to see here.  Move on.

[Signe]

Ah.  Nothing to see here.  Move on.

Ain't that the truth.