Vanguard Saga stuff at GU

[Lemming]

Really, someone just needs to step up and take the console MMORPG market by the horns and do it right.

That's the truth.  I've given up all hope on a decent virtual world.  I was kind of hoping for someone to make a successor to UO with some twitch combat, but wish in one hand crap in the other I guess.  MMOs on the next generation of consoles will hopefully be a breath of fresh air compared to the currently stale genre.  They're about the only thing piquing my interest as of late, well, besides the nearly dead fanboy in me hoping Tabula Rasa is a fun, original game.

Edit: Oh yeah, Vanguard.  Looks like an upgraded DAoC to me and that's no good.  Also, if it's the true EQ2, you won't catch me anywhere near that grindfest.

[Mesozoic]

To me this looks indistinguisible from EQ2, both in the art and in the general emphasis of the game.  Just reading the combat spam makes me drowsy.  That they would go ahead with this even as EQ2 flops amuses me.  That they hope to get 400,000 subscriptions while EQ2 hides their subs in the Station Pass system  - and Sigil in fact seem to consider 50k subs a clear failure - that just cracks me up. 

Hello!  WoW cut out the tedium, made higher levels accessible to the casual, and carries 3.5 million subscriptions.  Meanwhile Sigil is living in 2003, where 400,000 people come knocking on your door because you have dragons and swords.  Did it ever occur to them that EQ succeeded because its competition was AC and UO?

[Trippy]

Did it ever occur to them that EQ succeeded because its competition was AC and UO?

I thought it was because of The Vision Uber Alles.

[stray]

Not only two games for competition, but two harsh games for competition (*ahem* Or so people say). Just about anything could have succeeded in that situation.

[Pococurante]

Hello!  WoW cut out the tedium, made higher levels accessible to the casual, and carries 3.5 million subscriptions.

And CoH showed you could put high-end features in almost immediately.

Vanguard = DBA, dead before arrival

[Riggswolfe]

Not interested. The graphics look horrible and about the worst grind I can take after WoW is COH.

[Fargull]

I can see it now...

Vanguard for the Masocist in You!

They will be rolling in money hats.... marketing Genius I tell you!

[Miasma]

I wish this game the best of luck as it should drain all the hardcore catasses out of the other MMOs.  These people need to be segregated from the rest of society.  Plus whenever someone whines on an official board about how easy a game is I can tell them to "shut the fuck up and go play vanguard".

[Raguel]

About the graphics: people have been saying that, the problem with striving for "realistic" graphics is that one game starts looking like the others. I guess the industry's there already. That didn't take long. 

[MaceVanHoffen]

Ironically, when I think of gameplay I think of player skill in either strategy or twitch. Sadly, not a single MMORPG fits that bill. Not a one.

Yep, I do too.

I think the basic problem though is that there are a huge number of people who get some kind of emotional payoff to catassing.  This payoff is oft mistaken, by both players and game designers, for "skill".  An example:  uber mobs.  You have tons of gamers who honestly believe that the whole idea of EQ raiding actually took skill.  Not coincidentally, these are the same gamers who have Magelo profiles, create bigass messageboard signatures showing faggy art of their characters, and can spout all the statistics of the latest database record rendered as a pretty item.  It's those things the catass wants.  Catassing is just a way to get them, and the would-be gamer simply must believe that it takes skill to get there or he'd be forced to accept that he acquired 'roids and a /pizza gut for no good reason.  It's the virtual equivalent of Dorothy clicking her heels together while chanting, "It really does take skill!  It really does take skill!"

McQuaid, along with his entire generation of designers, have the same wool pulled over their eyes.  Somebody [with money] has to wake them up, or we're never going to get an MMOG that truly does involve skill.

[Merusk]

The argument against 'skill' as I've seen it from most designers (other than ping, etc.) is that rewarding skill winds-up marginalizing all but the top 2-10% of the players.  The feeling is that time-invested is the 'most fair' way of doing things.  This was Raph's argument way back when designing SWG as a time-vested game for combat rather than a player-skill game. 

This of course fails to recognize that tmie-invested ALSO rewards only the top 2-10% of players, but it's also the worst players you could have.  The folks with the hours to waste doing this grind-based shit are also the ones most likely to kill your CS, spam your boards and set-up whine-a-thon sit-ins because they've got the time!  It's maddening, really.

[Strazos]

Agreed with everything in the previous 2 posts.

Post++

I want to be successful in a game Mostly because I am a superior player, not because I have the time to play umpteen hours a day.

(I think skill should be the strongest factor, but there should be Some advantage given to those who have more time logged....but no so much as to cancel out skill (twitch or smarts)).

[MaceVanHoffen]

(I think skill should be the strongest factor, but there should be Some advantage given to those who have more time logged....but no so much as to cancel out skill (twitch or smarts)).

See, there is always an advantage to time logged:  you have had more experience at exercising whatever game mechanics there are.  In that sense then, it's not possible to create a game that doesn't give an advantage to those who have been playing longer.  Whether it's chess, basketball, or EQ, if I've been playing longer I have an advantage.  Granted, different players will acquire skill in different lengths of time.  Some are just naturally gifted at certain games.  But that doesn't completely negate a time advantage.

Game designers don't need to add still more advantages to those with more time.  Nature already did that.  And when you make time the only game mechanic that matters, well, you get what we have now in the MMOG world.

[schild]

The argument against 'skill' as I've seen it from most designers (other than ping, etc.) is that rewarding skill winds-up marginalizing all but the top 2-10% of the players.

Ironically it's exactly what they do with a treadmill. Fucking mo-rons. Who pays the people? I demand answers. Hey, Smed - GET AIDS LUPUS AND DIE.

[Simond]

Seriously, they need to cancel this fucking game. Fucking fuckity fuck fuck waste of fucking money fuck.

Nah, it was Mythica that was cancelled for this.
Besides, it's not like MS is short of cash. Just look forward to the point when (the currently hypothetical) Microsoft Online Entertainment takes over from Verant Sigil and forces Brad & co. to quit and set up another new studio. Again.

[HaemishM]

I'd have preferred if they released Mythica. At least it was mildly original in design.

[Mi_Tes]

I'd have preferred if they released Mythica. At least it was mildly original in design.

Damn, I wanted Mythica as well.  Ditching Mythica and going forward with Vanguard, was a huge mistake - I believe they picked the wrong one.  Vanguard is bland, where as Mythica was fun to play, it looked great, it had some original ideas, you started as a hero, and I liked the option of other mythos expansion packs.  Too bad MS wouldn't take any of the offers to buy Mythica after they canned it.  I would have loved to compare the game and the subscription numbers of the two.  But, who knows, perhaps Vanguard might turn into vapor as well?

[Simond]

More leet beta infos.

Anyone starting to look forward to this for the trainwreck potential, btw?

[shiznitz]

More leet beta infos.

Anyone starting to look forward to this for the trainwreck potential, btw?

I don't see trainwreck, just a big /sigh from MMO gamers.  As far as that info, I hate it when people speak "like" and am appalled that someone even writes that way.

[HaemishM]

Right to Content - One of the devs was talking about this.  He said there are people who believe they have the right to experience every bit of content in the game.  And he said that they believe that everyone has the right to have the "chance" to experience content, but not the right to be gaurenteed that content.  Like some other games out there.  And he said they believe very strongly in that.  Which they said there will be 7 day timed spawns and such.  And of course, none of the instanced stuff.

Tools. Way to not learn a goddamn thing about the market in the last 7 years, you trollops. Not only does Furor and his dev-fellating cronies NOT make up the majority of players, they don't even make up the majority of the hardcore.

Experience loss - Currently they have experience debt in the game instead of experience loss.  But the dev that stated that said he didn't like it and preferred loss.  I prefer loss too, hopefully that will change.

The dev's an idiot, and so is the poster.

Death - Your items and stuff do stay on your corpse when you die.  But instead of a corpse, it's a tombstone, which looks pretty cool.  They didn't want to have corpses everywhere.  And I think this is a good system.

You mean like DAoC?

NOT ONE ORIGINAL THOUGHT AMONG THEM.

[penfold]

Does the Deluxe Box come with an embroidered Vanguard poopsock ?

Its aimed at such a narrow market im sure all the buyers will want to replace their own ones.

Normal people wont be remotely interested. At least, I hope.

[shiznitz]

But let's talk about changes that will happen from Live to Live+9 months when subs are sub 200k.

1) exp debt, but better!
2) more instances!
3) combat revamp!
4) raised the level cap!

[Simond]

But let's talk about changes that will happen from Live to Live+9 months when subs are sub 200k.

1) exp debt, but better!
2) more instances!
3) combat revamp!
4) raised the level cap!

Microsoft Online Entertainment takes over, as per my earlier post. :)

[Strazos]

Experience loss - Currently they have experience debt in the game instead of experience loss.  But the dev that stated that said he didn't like it and preferred loss.  I prefer loss too, hopefully that will change.

What fucking difference does it make? Either way, you have to do that much more killing to ding anyway....

Either I lose 100 xp when I die

or

For the next bit, half of my xp is basically thrown away, until that amounts to 100xp.

Fucktards.

[Tale]

Microsoft Online Entertainment takes over, as per my earlier post. :)

I don't think I read the first page, but did anyone point out the "Start" button at the lower left of the Vanguard UI? (edit - overcame my laziness and found Miasma posted about it)

Start\Applications\Microsoft Office for Vanguard? And in keeping with Windows irony, you'll need to hit "Start" to shut down.

Mo' money, MOE money.

[Murgos]

Experience loss - Currently they have experience debt in the game instead of experience loss.  But the dev that stated that said he didn't like it and preferred loss.  I prefer loss too, hopefully that will change.

What fucking difference does it make? Either way, you have to do that much more killing to ding anyway....

Either I lose 100 xp when I die

or

For the next bit, half of my xp is basically thrown away, until that amounts to 100xp.

Fucktards.

You used to be able to delevel in EQ, that is a fairly significant feature of exp loss vs. debt...

[Strazos]

While debt can basically make you earn 2x (at the least) of the xp needed to level.

But really, on a death-by-death basis, it's the same.

[schild]

Both systems are to penalize catassing motherfuckers and n00blers. It's also to chase casual players away.

Neither system works. It's all so 1997.

[Merusk]

All this hate brings a tear of joy to my eye.   It's so beautiful.

Aside from the 2x xp / level thing, debit means you don't lose all your spells/ powers/ items when you lose below 0 xp as well.  And in a catass game like EQ/VS it also means you won't suddenly be unable to get that corpse from the level-locked zone because you ate the 3rd death in a row to a wipe while trying to get your body and all the items you need or your account becomes useless.

[HaemishM]

Deleveling is the kind of shit gets motherfuckers stabbed nowadays.

[Paelos]

Deleveling is the kind of shit gets motherfuckers stabbed nowadays.

You need to turn off GTA:SA and step back into white reality. 

Cracker.

[Samwise]

Ironically, when I think of gameplay I think of player skill in either strategy or twitch. Sadly, not a single MMORPG fits that bill. Not a one.

Assuming you're not deliberating excluding the smaller indy MMOGs from the "massive" category.... *cough*Puzzle Pirates*cough*

Seriously.  Forget the puzzle thing and look at the broader mechanics of that game.  It's fucking brilliant the way they simultaneously reward greater player skill and provide greater challenges at the same time.  Every other MMO designer should be sitting up and taking notice of what the Ringers did with PP, because they did a lot of things very right.

I also keep meaning to give Starport a try, since it sounds pretty twitchy.  There's hope yet, I say!

[El Gallo]

I want to be successful in a game Mostly because I am a superior player, not because I have the time to play umpteen hours a day.

There were many hundreds of players that put in more hours per week into EQ than the members of my server's uberguild did.  Yet the uberguild killed everything first.  There were lots and lots of uberguilds across servers who put in similar amounts of time, but the same 5 or so uberguilds almost always killed the big targets first. 

Now, EQ took way too much time.  But the "they only beat me because they spent more time" mantra is utter bullshit.  Getting 70 people to move and act as one takes skill, a skill I sure as fuck don't have.  Each person reacting instantly to changed circumstances and unexpected events where a one second delay will wipe the whole raid takes skill, a skill I sure as fuck don't have.  Now, the earlier EQ raids (e.g. Vox, Naggy, Velious) were pretty predictable and mindless, but some of the later raids made considerable demands on almost every player.  Some WoW raid bosses would be tricky if people didn't read the strategy from Conquest and download UI mods specifically designed to gimp the encounters.

Now, skills like this aren't the kind of skills that the "DOWN-BACK-UP-UP-X-A-SELECT FOR TEH FATALITY!!!11!" console monkeys appreciate, but they are skills.   


Anyway, on VG, I think "EQ2" way, way, way too often for comfort when I look at or read about this game.  I had hopes that this would occupy the midpoint between EQ1 and WoW, and I'd still like to see that work out.  One thing EQ1 did better than any other MMO was create a well-detailed and interesting world, and if Aradune can do that again I'd check it out for at least a while.  But my interest is dwindling.  I'd still blow a monkey for a beta slot, so that's something.

[tazelbain]

Sure, playing EQ more than 2 hours and not falling into a coma is a skill too.

[HaemishM]

I want to be successful in a game Mostly because I am a superior player, not because I have the time to play umpteen hours a day.

There were many hundreds of players that put in more hours per week into EQ than the members of my server's uberguild did.  Yet the uberguild killed everything first.  There were lots and lots of uberguilds across servers who put in similar amounts of time, but the same 5 or so uberguilds almost always killed the big targets first. 

Now, EQ took way too much time.  But the "they only beat me because they spent more time" mantra is utter bullshit.  Getting 70 people to move and act as one takes skill, a skill I sure as fuck don't have.  Each person reacting instantly to changed circumstances and unexpected events where a one second delay will wipe the whole raid takes skill, a skill I sure as fuck don't have.  Now, the earlier EQ raids (e.g. Vox, Naggy, Velious) were pretty predictable and mindless, but some of the later raids made considerable demands on almost every player.  Some WoW raid bosses would be tricky if people didn't read the strategy from Conquest and download UI mods specifically designed to gimp the encounters.

It's called meta-gaming and organization. Sure it's a skill, but it's a skill that has very little to do with the individual player's contributions IN THE GAME. Most people, me included, who talk about player skill are talking about it because it means the player is more than an automaton pressing the correct button at the correct time. That's what I see wrong with raiding. It takes lots of discipline and patience, but to me, even as someone who has lead these raids before, it doesn't feel like it takes skill at the game. Most of the challenges I faced in EQ raids were overcoming the shit shit shitty shit chat interface issues to keep people from wandering around and getting themselves and the rest of us killed. Oh and removing the Leroy Jenkins's of the world before they got us killed as well.

I'm not going to say that metagaming to achieve raid success doesn't take effort, I just don't think it takes much individual player skill. It takes cogs in a wetmachine. As a player, I don't want to be those cogs.