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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Archived: We distort. We decide.  |  Topic: The Economy of Savages 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: The Economy of Savages  (Read 16535 times)
schild
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Reply #35 on: July 12, 2005, 01:37:30 PM

Mmmmm. Nostalgia.

I prefer the Megrim/Wheel and Deal to black vise any day. My multiplayer deck is the devil. But when it lands, which it usually does, it will take out every opponent at once. I need to mix a third color in so people don't see it coming though.
Fabricated
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Reply #36 on: July 12, 2005, 02:06:01 PM

Mmmmm. Nostalgia.

I prefer the Megrim/Wheel and Deal to black vise any day. My multiplayer deck is the devil. But when it lands, which it usually does, it will take out every opponent at once. I need to mix a third color in so people don't see it coming though.

Fuck you and your Megrim deck. One of my friends played with one of those and I hated it more than anything. I ended up making a mass enchantment destruction deck just to piss him off in multiplayer games.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
schild
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Reply #37 on: July 12, 2005, 02:09:41 PM

His obviously wasn't fast enough.
Fabricated
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Reply #38 on: July 12, 2005, 02:19:09 PM

His obviously wasn't fast enough.

After he first started playing with the deck, his Megrims would typically get disenchanted or otherwise popped the instant they were played. I Jester's Capped them out of his deck once or twice with the help of quick colorless mana.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 02:22:40 PM by Fabricated »

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Strazos
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Reply #39 on: July 12, 2005, 02:27:46 PM

I beat one of your meagrim decks once.  evil

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schild
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Reply #40 on: July 12, 2005, 02:28:19 PM

Jester's cap doesn't exist online. Yet. Sigh. Like I said, playing field changing. A lot.
Margalis
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Reply #41 on: July 12, 2005, 05:53:40 PM

Juggernaut came back in Mirrodin. Royal Assasin is one of those cards that is fun but really doesn't work well in creature decks. It isn't a win condition, just a stall. I imagine in limited it's quite good though.

Edit: What the hell did I write above? "Creature decks?" Good one brain...that should say CONSTRUCTED decks. It's too slow and too much of a creature-staller to be good in constructed. Sure you can combine him with some tappers to kill creatures but that won't help you against combo decks, control decks, or just fast creature decks.

Edit 2: TONS of people play with Oblivion Stone! Many Tooth and Nail decks ran them, as did Mono Black Control. Outside of affinity it was one of the most common artifacts! Juggernaut would be a lot better in a core set where there isn't so much artifact hate.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 09:53:16 PM by Margalis »

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Johny Cee
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Reply #42 on: July 12, 2005, 09:36:39 PM

-  Juggernaut and Nevy's Disk were both reprinted in Mirrodin.  Cept the Disk was called Oblivion Stone.  And no one really used them, because they aren't very good now....

-  Black Vise was a son of a bitch.  It was restricted,  especially when combined with land destruction (sinkhole, stone rain, ice quake, etc.).  Nezumi Shortfang was an attempt to bring back a Rack/Black Vise type affect.

The cards haven't gotten weaker as time has moved on.  "Card power" is more of a wave type function.....   you have peaks and troughs.  You can generally find the peaks by finding where the restrictions/bannings go into effect.

Peaks:  Unlimited/Dark/Arabian Nights era (Power 9),  Urza's block (heh...  lots of banned shit here.  Academy tops it),  MIRRODIN (actually)

Mirrodin was a festering pile because it was 95% filler to round out the couple of bomb cards.

Edit:  Man....   have alot to say on the topics broached here that really begs for more comprehensive treatment.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 09:39:12 PM by Johny Cee »
Fabricated
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Reply #43 on: July 12, 2005, 09:49:35 PM

Speaking of paper magic and casual playing, what house rules did/does everyone play by?

Me and my friends just had a banned card list. I'm trying to remember the notables...Ivory Tower, Black Vise, Mana Web (one of my friends really really fucking hated this card for some reason), Channel, Memory Jar (HATE)...that's about all I can remember.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Margalis
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Reply #44 on: July 12, 2005, 09:56:18 PM

We used to play for ante after it was out of vogue, although usually we would play nice and trade back nice cards at below value. So if I got your chase rare in an ante I might trade it back for a few uncommons.

Ante was really messed up in general, in Revised 2 or 3 of the Black rares dealt with ante, and hence were unplayable most of the time. Of course ante was a terrible idea, a friend of mine made an all commons deck just to exploit it. Didn't really matter how many times he lost, as long as he won now and then.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #45 on: July 13, 2005, 07:24:07 AM

We used to play for ante after it was out of vogue, although usually we would play nice and trade back nice cards at below value. So if I got your chase rare in an ante I might trade it back for a few uncommons.

Ante was really messed up in general, in Revised 2 or 3 of the Black rares dealt with ante, and hence were unplayable most of the time. Of course ante was a terrible idea, a friend of mine made an all commons deck just to exploit it. Didn't really matter how many times he lost, as long as he won now and then.

Heh, Ante.

Ante is the classic example of a developer's intentions and design running smack down into the cold reality of how people actually play a game.  Richard Garfield never envisioned the "mr suitcases" of the world ever having 4 of every rare or playing cutthroat to win, let alone the value on the secondary market or cards, all conspiring to make ante a the black sheep of the game.

That being said, Ante is something you could easily incorporate into the "MtGORPG that I want that no one is working on damnit!".

Xilren
PS Yeah, I know about the reprints of jug and nevy's disk; it was just old school tongue in cheekness :-p

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HaemishM
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Reply #46 on: July 13, 2005, 08:26:35 AM

I think the only things we ever did as far as house rules was about ante. We never played with that shit. Nice idea, but really, unless all the cards are of similar value and rarity, almost no one will want to give up their valuable ass cards. Hell, I sold most of my first set of stuff for around $600 after Fallen Empires came out (piece of shit expansion that was). And I actually got ripped on the deal, though I was happy to have the money at the time since I used it to buy a shitton of miniatures at a con I went to that week.

We also usually only played in 4-6 player multiplayer games, and most of the time it was with decks of at least 75 cards or more. None of this 40-card speed deck bullshit, this was much more strategic, longer-lasting play. Of course, with that size of decks, we'd often have at least one person who just never got any lands quick enough to do anything. We called that "manapause."

Ahhhh, good times.

schild
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Reply #47 on: July 13, 2005, 08:29:09 AM

I wouldn't call 75 card decks more strategic. They just require more card advantage.

40 Card decks back when millstones were around had to be incredibly strategic. Get in, get out, get'er done. You generally had 10 turns or so to really blow through that deck - and it simply wasn't as easy as it is now. I wish I could make 40 card decks now. I miss those days of streamlining.
AOFanboi
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Reply #48 on: July 13, 2005, 08:55:26 AM

I wish I could make 40 card decks now. I miss those days of streamlining.
Just make 40 card decks and play in the Open format on MTGO. I have a 50-card (used to be 40) white Soldier deck with 12 Glory Seekers in it. It rawks.

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Strazos
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Reply #49 on: July 13, 2005, 08:59:18 AM

I have a 50-card (used to be 40) white Soldier deck with 12 Glory Seekers in it. It rawks.

You are a bad, bad person.

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HaemishM
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Reply #50 on: July 13, 2005, 09:33:22 AM

Speed-deck type of play always reminded me entirely too much of RTS-style gameplay. Most of the strategy went into deck construction. I like a slower-paced type of game.

Xilren's Twin
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Reply #51 on: July 13, 2005, 09:49:50 AM

This was written as a supplement to Schild’s piece on MTGO’s decision to reprint an old set.  Sorry if it runs a little long.

While I don’t believe reprinting an old, non-redeemable set will have near the impact in MTGO as it would in paper magic, it does highlight how almost anything dev’s do now has an RMT impact in online gaming.

In terms of MTGO, WotC has always maintained that they have no interest in the secondary market and to them, each card cost the same to produce no matter if it’s a common, uncommon, or rare (or virtual for that matter).  They have long stated they will never sell single cards nor publish price lists or track such thing for secondary sales.  Yet, at the same time, there is also no denying that they alone have the greatest impact on the secondary market by their control over set rotation and card reprints.  Just like baseball cards, many cards value is strictly due to their rarity.  However, in MtG, their value is also tied to their usability.  Tournament quality rares always command the best prices, so when sets rotate out and what is now Standard tournament legal changes, the secondary market prices also change.  If WotC ever reprinted moxen in a new set, the prices for old moxen would plummet, and WotC KNOWS this.  The good news is they don't seem to let it control their marketing and development strategy.  If WotC ever changes this and decide to sell single cards directly themselves, whether paper or online, that would have some significant affects on any number of real world businesses (perfectly legal businesses at that).  To date they have never shown interest in this approach.

But here's the fear; not all dev house will take this same approach.  MMORPG devs s in particular are trying really hard to come to terms with RMT in their games.  Some are trying to outlaw it, some are trying to marginalize it by design decisions, and others are trying figure out ways to profit from it.  Just recently, SOE launched their own Sony Exchange service so they could grab a slice of the RMT.  But, is it such a difficult logical leap from offering brokerage services between players, to simply offering uber items and characters straight out for purchase? (Hell, some games, *cough* UO *cough* already do this).  After all, who control what items are the "best" or most desirable?  Who controls what character/skills are most effecgive?  And who can also CHANGE the environment to suite their needs, including nerfing or removing "overpowered" items?

Tinfoil hat time.  So, lets say the best current sword in EQ is a +5 WeaselWhacker.  Sony sells them for a few months directly, then decides since sales have slacked off they need to take some action.  Next patch they nerf the WeaselWhacker, or introduce new content highly resistant to the WeasalWhacker, and then the players aren't as effective as they used to be.  The following month, they now begin selling a new "best" sword, the +6 VorpalBunnySlayer.... until it's sales level off and the cycle repeats.

THAT’S the fear, that the game itself will become nothing more than a thinly veiled marketing scheme to sell crap via micro transactions, turning them all into Project Entropa wanna be’s or some foolishness.  The reason it scares me is because I can easily see this making perfect sense from a business point of view.  Fun? Screw that, what decisions net me more profit?  Hell just selling gold or platinum directly makes a lot of sense.  Who does it really hurt?

My question is, do we really want design decisions being based solely around what sells more instead of what makes a game better from a player’s perspective.  Sometimes, the two desires can go hand in hand, but more often than not, they could lead in opposite directions.  Just imagine playing WoW if every time you wanted to take a griffon ride you had to pay 50 cents.  Sure, you don't HAVE to pay, you could just run for a long time.  And that’s where I fear we are headed; good games where the fun gets frozen out by the dollar signs…

Xilren

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Reply #52 on: July 13, 2005, 11:24:22 AM

In terms of MTGO, WotC has always maintained that they have no interest in the secondary market...

Isn't this a legal CYA?

This thread highlights the fact that I have forgotten more MtG than I remember.  I stopped playing sometime after Ice Age.  I learned and played in Auburn, AL, which is or was a tournament town... meaning that if you didn't abide by tourney rules, you could not get in a game anywhere in the "real" group of players.  I carried my deck around in an Unlimited box just to scare the new kids.  Now... not sure I could manage a basic red deck.

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grebo
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Reply #53 on: July 14, 2005, 02:47:25 AM

I remember my Balance deck.  Only time I got to the final 4 of a fairly large local tourney, where I lost to another Balance deck...

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Reply #54 on: July 14, 2005, 08:07:04 AM

Speed-deck type of play always reminded me entirely too much of RTS-style gameplay. Most of the strategy went into deck construction. I like a slower-paced type of game.

Yeah, I always preferred the slower play with room for more whimsical decks. I loved playing landdestruction or Millstone decks against the 40-card killer decks... I was rarely fast enough, but when it worked I had one pissed of oponent.

I'd love a mmopg based around Garfields original vision of Magic. Basically the old Microprose game, but with the new sets and real players instead of computer players. Loot would be cards... maybe with some sort of colour crafting system as well (you specialize in a colour or a type of cards - go beat the Serra Angel leader to be able to make that card.... oh, PvE just got added there). A binding system like WoW should render the secondary market useless.
But cards truly being limited by rarity (now both online and off- money is the only limiting factor) and ante being required for high-level play.
And of course it would be a flat fee game... no buying of virtual cards.


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