Ultima Online never existed.

[sinij]

I've always wondered: if not for the trammelized experience, how UO would have faired? Would it have ever broken 100k? Would it's lack of success just propelled EQ further?

Reading this I get a feeling that you don't really want to remember that UO hit above 200K subs *before* Trammel was released. Who knows how UO would have faired if not for generation after generation of fucktard developers jerking it in a different direction every time.

[WindupAtheist]

The lack of a Trammel wouldn't have changed much of anything during the "Big Three" era.  EQ would spank UO a little harder, but AC would still sit a distant third place.  But things like DAOC and AO would have hurt UO much worse than they did historically.  The carebears who didn't immediately jump to EQ would eventually find SOMEWHERE else to go as the market expanded, and a solid chunk of the fighters would be attracted to games with some semblance of an organized PVP system.  That would leave UO with it's partial share of the fighters, the diehard carebear minority who just can't stand leveling and refuse to quit, and a bunch of griefing teenagers.

[sinij]

chunk of the fighters /=PvPers/ would be attracted to games with some semblance of an organized PVP system

Inflexible 'organization' is THE LAST thing PvPers are looking for in the games. UO's attraction to PvP crowd was that you were not very restricted in your choices of how, when and why you decide to engage in combat.

[Venkman]

Reading this I get a feeling that you don't really want to remember that UO hit above 200K subs *before* Trammel was released.

I was going by the assumption that UO didn't hit 200k until well after the April 2000 launch of Renaissance. However, at the time, their press release about the launch mentioned 185k accounts, so I guess that's close enough to your point: Renaissance didn't make the game go from 50k to 200k players. They did hit somewhere around 250k eventually.

In any case, I agree with Atheist.

However, not sure I agree that all PvPers should be lumped together in saying they seek totally-open PvP to the exclusion of organized PvP, at least in MMORPGs. Short term anywherePvP can be fun, but it's the longterm connection with the game world that is attractive to some. While a rather impressive trainwreck, the folks in Shadowbane enjoy/accept anytime/where PvP while being part of the larger goals of the game (towns and their sieges, resource control, etc.). Not everyone's building a city, but everyone's got a place in the grand goal.

[WindupAtheist]

Inflexible 'organization' is THE LAST thing PvPers are looking for in the games. UO's attraction to PvP crowd was that you were not very restricted in your choices of how, when and why you decide to engage in combat.

Which is why Shadowbane rules the MMOG world, while WoW languishes in obscurity.  Oh wait. I forgot I'm dealing with Sinij, who thinks his tastes in PVP are the universal standard, and not the niche interest of himself, Arnold, the three people who still go to Felucca in UO, and the five or six people still playing Shadowbane.

[AOFanboi]

Which is why Shadowbane rules the MMOG world, while WoW languishes in obscurity.  Oh wait. I forgot I'm dealing with Sinij, who thinks his tastes in PVP are the universal standard, and not the niche interest of himself, Arnold, the three people who still go to Felucca in UO, and the five or six people still playing Shadowbane.

Are you forgetting the many PvP-oriented Asian games here? Lineage 1/2? Ragnarok?

Maybe sinji is Korean...

[Teleku]

I have a roommate that is VERY into Ragnarok, and from what I see of it, the PvP is mainly limited to weekened events where guilds fight over control of certain castles.  And maybe a few PvP plus zones to screw around in.  Rest of the game is just ENDLESS grinding.  In the most grindingly grindy worst way possible.

So I don't think it really constitutes a PvP centered game.  Never tried either Lineage. 

[Arnold]

If you say UO, Sinij and Arnold will appear to bemoan the passing of the Dread Lord Days.  It's like an F13 law.

Sorry, but I never played under the Notoriety System.  I started playing shortly before T2A was released.  But after experiencing Siege Perilous in all its early glory, I'm sad that I missed the Dread Days.  My guildmates who played them told me that early Siege had a lot in common with them.

[Arnold]

That's neither here nor there. The first successful Massively-Multiplayer Online Game was UO, and even if it didn't reach 200k until after EQ was out, it was still as huge as EQ on its release. It was totally and completely ignored, which is bad research AND bad writing. No, it's not surprising, just galling.

Correct.  UO was a HUGE FUCKING SMASH SUCCESS!  From what I gather, early UO had somewhere in the range of 130,000-150,000 subscibers.  That is way, way above anyhthing that Origin ever expected from the game.  It's funny how we start taking things for granted so quickly.  I believe RG thought ~30k was the upper bound of customers for such a service.

[Arnold]

I only mentioned the pre/post-Renaissance gig because that's when it really began to be a relevant member of the triumvirate. I never really knew how successful AC1 was, but we were all there during the My Game Is Better Than Your Game days. It still happens now, but it's quieter because everyone's spread over many more places :)

Ah well. The CNN article still sucked. It did ignore a critical bit of MMORPG history.

On a just-barely-related-enough-for-this-thread track, I've always wondered: if not for the trammelized experience, how UO would have faired? Would it have ever broken 100k? Would it's lack of success just propelled EQ further? It's not like UO having hit 200k really did much more than let us play UO2 in SWG, so maybe it's irrelevant anyway.

I don't know about current numbers, but for a long time, AC1 hovered around the 100k mark.  It is a hack and slash game with cool (but not mandatory) lewt that catered to solo players, unlike EQ.

UO DID have over 100k players before UO:R.  Also, from my experience, I think that most of the "new" accounts that

[Arnold]

I only mentioned the pre/post-Renaissance gig because that's when it really began to be a relevant member of the triumvirate. I never really knew how successful AC1 was, but we were all there during the My Game Is Better Than Your Game days. It still happens now, but it's quieter because everyone's spread over many more places :)

Ah well. The CNN article still sucked. It did ignore a critical bit of MMORPG history.

On a just-barely-related-enough-for-this-thread track, I've always wondered: if not for the trammelized experience, how UO would have faired? Would it have ever broken 100k? Would it's lack of success just propelled EQ further? It's not like UO having hit 200k really did much more than let us play UO2 in SWG, so maybe it's irrelevant anyway.

I don't know about current numbers, but for a long time, AC1 hovered around the 100k mark.  It is a hack and slash game with cool (but not mandatory) lewt that catered to solo players, unlike EQ.

UO DID have over 100k players before UO:R.  Also, from my experience, I think that most of the "new" accounts were started by veteren players who wanted to grab as much land as they could in Trammel.  Right before UO:R, OSI changed the housing rules so that each account could only own one house (with multiple, existing houses grandfathered in).  Pretty my every player I knew had 2 accounts after Trammel hit.  Some had crazy numbers, like 10 accounts, with property on them.

By the time UO:R was released, there were choices that featured WAY more of teh shiney than UO.  I can't see any 12 year old kid picking UO over EQ in the store.  Kids tend to go for the newest, coolest looking thing, and that was not UO.  This is why I refer to the situation as "the great Trammy lie", because those accounts were, for the most part, bought by existing players, not sheep returning to a UO with a new world of milk and honey.

[Arnold]

Inflexible 'organization' is THE LAST thing PvPers are looking for in the games. UO's attraction to PvP crowd was that you were not very restricted in your choices of how, when and why you decide to engage in combat.

Which is why Shadowbane rules the MMOG world, while WoW languishes in obscurity.  Oh wait. I forgot I'm dealing with Sinij, who thinks his tastes in PVP are the universal standard, and not the niche interest of himself, Arnold, the three people who still go to Felucca in UO, and the five or six people still playing Shadowbane.

Shadowbane sucked ass; nice strawman.  The Shadowbane devs were a bunch of fucktards, who wouldn't know a pvp game if it bit them on the ass.  They should have played some AC1 to see what a 3D, PvP MMORPG should feel like.  Also, you should never, ever, ever have to kill a fucking snake to level up in a pvp oriented game.  More to the point, there shouldn't be any levels in a PvP oriented game either.

[WindupAtheist]

Bla bla bla everyone will love a gankful MMORPG as soon as someone does it right, same old shit I've been hearing for half a decade plus.

[ahoythematey]

I am not defending WUA here, because I personally believe his opinion on PVP gameplay isn't worth jack shit, but you still had to grind it up in Darktide before people crunched the very core of the game and xp chains became commonplace.  In Shadowbane it was simply faster and more buggy.

[WindupAtheist]

My opinion on PVP is this:  Consentual PVP, in the form of arena-based or faction-based systems, will continue to be popular as one aspect of a larger game.  However, anyone who still thinks a free-for-all PVP MMO can succeed as a mass-market venture in the West is smoking fucking crack at this point.

Yes, it might make it here as a niche product.
Yes, it might sell in Korea.
Yes, chess and soccer and Counterstrike are all players versus other players.

But I'm talking about subscription-based massively multiplayer online role-playing games and the Western market thereof.  You know, the subject LtM and it's progeny have primarily talked about for the last seven years or what have you.

[sinij]

WUA is raging carebear with an issue, he believes PvP to be root of all evil and the sole reason why his games suck, even if it is something that no self-respecting PvPer would touch with a ten-foot pole. Anything he says with regard to PvP is what *he* thinks PvPs should be doing/enjoying.

[WindupAtheist]

Sinij, I love you man.  You're priceless.  You're like an elderly Japanese soldier stranded alone on a tropical island, ninety years old and convinced that WW2 is still going on.  It doesn't matter what the market does, or what the players do, or how many years go by.  What the mass-market really wants is Dread Lord Days 2.0, Trammel and EQ be damned!

EDIT:  Yes, I chose examples (Trammel, EQ) each over half a decade old on purpose.

[Morfiend]

However, anyone who still thinks a free-for-all PVP MMO can succeed as a mass-market venture in the West is smoking fucking crack at this point.

Oh. My. God.

Quick, some one do some thing nasty to me. I agree with him. FUCK.

[WindupAtheist]

Only because I'm fucking brilliant.  That, and the fact that my above-cited opinion is simple common sense.  I mean, it's not as if I'm weighing in on some sort of controversy.  People want PVP when they want it, and they want to be left alone the rest of the time.  This... shouldn't even bear repeating.

[Riggswolfe]

However, anyone who still thinks a free-for-all PVP MMO can succeed as a mass-market venture in the West is smoking fucking crack at this point.

Oh. My. God.

Quick, some one do some thing nasty to me. I agree with him. FUCK.

It's because he is right. Early UO told the Western World one thing. The little sociopaths may enjoy open PvP but normal people don't. PvP in some organized manner, ala WoW, is fine. Open PvP is only for the hardcore who feel they have something to prove in their lives and torturing kittens is no longer doing it for them.

[Triforcer]

Long after EQ is dust and WoW2 shuts down its last servers, people will still be arguing about Trammel.  We'll be old men in our floating cities jacked into 10 generation total virtual reality MMOs and still bitch about how our miner was killed and our 2 Garlic looted on Lake Fucking Superior in 1998.  That alone shows that UO has some sort of power, some sort of hold on us, that no other MMO could ever achieve.   

[Alkiera]

Long after EQ is dust and WoW2 shuts down its last servers, people will still be arguing about Trammel.  We'll be old men in our floating cities jacked into 10 generation total virtual reality MMOs and still bitch about how our miner was killed and our 2 Garlic looted on Lake Fucking Superior in 1998.  That alone shows that UO has some sort of power, some sort of hold on us, that no other MMO could ever achieve.   

It's the 'first mmog' thing.  Your first MMO is always special, as you go, 'Wow, all those guys are played by real, actual people!'.  The wonder sticks with you for awhile the first time, and then less for the next game, and so on.  You always remember the first one with the wonder you had at the time, and can't quite achieve again.

Alkiera

[Lum]

But after experiencing Siege Perilous in all its early glory, I'm sad that I missed the Dread Days.  My guildmates who played them told me that early Siege had a lot in common with them.

The key difference being that 99% of the people on Siege were there either to PvP, or knew that they were probably going to be involved in PvP at some point. There was no such thing as minerkillers on Siege (although miners were killed).

(idly wonders if the Siege guide he wrote for Stratics is still around somewhere)

[Sky]

Seige may have been the pinnacle of mmorpgs. I wish they had included the thief code from early UO (when thieves went red from stealing from too many blues), but otherwise it was a great server. The skill advancement code was nice, the cap, that is. Work on skills for an hour or so, then just play the game and not worry about it.

Guilds really meant something, guilds 'owned' certain areas, and your reputation (real rep, not the coded rep) meant everything. Small community for the motherloving win. Large communities are a major problem, imo. Anonymity breeding douchebaggery and whatnot. SCS+guilds+open pvp = minding your manners or joining a big enough group of like-minded douches to protect you.

And I played a character with absolutely no combat skills at all, no magic, nada. Pure thief. I still remember the sweat of stealthing out of the bottom of Shame loaded down with 12k in gold or so, with reds everywhere (and npc monsters as well). Not because I needed the money, I was rich from treasure hunting, I did it for the excitement of penetrating enemy territory and looting them blind while being completely unable to defend myself.

Suck on that, carebears. Oo, the big mean pks...pshaw.

[Sky]

What the mass-market really wants

Ooo...I know the answer!

"Who the fuck cares?"

Maybe some folks are after great gaming and not market share.

[Arnold]

I am not defending WUA here, because I personally believe his opinion on PVP gameplay isn't worth jack shit, but you still had to grind it up in Darktide before people crunched the very core of the game and xp chains became commonplace.  In Shadowbane it was simply faster and more buggy.

Certainly.  Level escalation and the introduction of far too many no-drop items were the main reasons I left the game.  But you have to remember that AC wasn't designed to be a PvP game.  Darktide was just kind of tacked on as an aftrerthought that somehow worked (for a while, anyway).  Shadowbane, on the other hand, was designed, from the ground up, to be a PvP game.

[Arnold]

But after experiencing Siege Perilous in all its early glory, I'm sad that I missed the Dread Days.  My guildmates who played them told me that early Siege had a lot in common with them.

(idly wonders if the Siege guide he wrote for Stratics is still around somewhere)

I remember that.  I think you mentioned one or two of my utilities in it.

[WindupAtheist]

Ooo...I know the answer!

"Who the fuck cares?"

Maybe some folks are after great gaming and not market share.

Really?  But the rest of us like crappy gaming, because we're not as awesome as you.  Hey, speaking of which, I remember you from last time we had one of these threads.

I don't wear rosy glasses, I remember quite well how it was back then. Sure, there was a bad element that caused a lot of havok, but it was only on the fringes or in spots to lure in dumb newbies.

You must have not encountered the bad element I was a part of.  The second you stepped outside guard zones, you were fair game.  We also tended to patrol player cities and had a series of runes for clearing out every dungeon except the stupid one with the drakes.   It was prevalent, pervasive, and persistent.

Pwned by history.

[ahoythematey]

Anybody that claims PvP is for the sociopathic niche gamer in the Western part of the world must be unawares of Counter-Strike, Unreal Tournament, Starcraft/Warcraft, Goldeneye/Timesplitters, Guild Wars, etc.  Either that or exceptionally stupid in a world of stupid people.

The problem isn't that players don't want PvP in MMOs, because they do.  The problem is that MMO devs so far seem wholly incapable at building a good, PvP-oriented MMO.  I have a tiny bit of hope for the Conan MMO to pull it off because of the license really not working without it, but then it is Funcom...

[Megrim]

Last time i played EVE it was open pvp. And they've not gone out of business yet, have they?

 - meg

[Sky]

Pwned by history.

It's funny when you get all jackassy smug like that. Those are the perspectives of two players, neither is indicative of the entire game. Maybe ras had a guild of hundreds of folks who were everywhere in the game at once. Or maybe they just patrolled those common spots I was talking about and ganked whiny little twits like you (which was probably a service to the game, in fact).

Or I was a superplayer who was Sam Fisher avoiding gank mobs with my l33t stealth skillzorz. Maybe you're onto something.

Honestly, the only real problem I ever saw in early UO was miner killers, because that was lame. Everything else could be dealt with or avoided if you knew the map and tendencies of other players.

But I didn't mean to spoil your jackassy moment. Sorry, WUA.

[sinij]

I was there as well and unadaptive loosers like WUA was the reason UO was dumbed down to its current sorry state. I also started my first character as a miner and was PKed dosen times until I learned about 'approaching red names' and recall scrolls. I also didn't go mining around crossroads or deciet entrance. After that I learned that you can hide without fail around houses, open trap pouches to stun break and precast heal or recall spell to make sure you can get away.

[Reg]

Anybody that claims PvP is for the sociopathic niche gamer in the Western part of the world must be unawares of Counter-Strike, Unreal Tournament, Starcraft/Warcraft, Goldeneye/Timesplitters, Guild Wars, etc.  Either that or exceptionally stupid in a world of stupid people.

The problem isn't that players don't want PvP in MMOs, because they do.  The problem is that MMO devs so far seem wholly incapable at building a good, PvP-oriented MMO.  I have a tiny bit of hope for the Conan MMO to pull it off because of the license really not working without it, but then it is Funcom...

Those games you mention require no investment in your character. You die, you respawn, you go back and fight and it just doesn't matter. That doesn't work in a MMOG when you have to have the opportunity to work on skills and upgrade your equipment. Not in a mass market mmog anyway which is what we're talking about it. EVE and Shadowbane and any other wide open PvP games are definitely catering to niche markets in North America.

[Lum]

I remember that.  I think you mentioned one or two of my utilities in it.

Did you do the OMG SKILL NOW! eggtimer? That's the only Siege specific one I can remember.

[Malathor]

Those games you mention require no investment in your character. You die, you respawn, you go back and fight and it just doesn't matter. That doesn't work in a MMOG when you have to have the opportunity to work on skills and upgrade your equipment. Not in a mass market mmog anyway which is what we're talking about it. EVE and Shadowbane and any other wide open PvP games are definitely catering to niche markets in North America.

Weird then how more people are playing on the WoW PvP servers alone than there are playing any other MMORPG in the western world. This when the PvP servers add exactly zero to the game except random gankage. Indeed, add the Euro servers to the NA ones and the players on the WoW Gankage servers outnumber the "normal" ones. So umm...bullshit on PvP being a MMORPG niche.