Big Screen TV recommendations...

[OcellotJenkins]

Well, I took the plunge this weekend and bought my home theater system.  After spending quite a bit of time on avsforum.com (thanks for letting us know about that site) and making several visits to Best Buy, Circuit City, and Tweeter,  I ended up getting the following if anyone cares:

Sony Grand Wega 55" LCD Projection TV

Onkyo TX-SR602 AV Reciever

Polk RM6800 5.1 Surround Speakers

TV Console/Stand

My local Circuit City had the best deal I could find.  It took some negotiating but I got them to take 10% off everything and throw in an Inkjet printer for free...oh yeah and free delivery.  It really came down to either the Samsung DLP or the Sony Wega and although both TVs look beautiful side by side, My wife and I felt the Sony had a much better viewing angle.  Also, multiple people told me the Sony had a better upconversion algorithym than the Sammy and that it was notiable when hooking things like a PS2 up to it.  CC also claimed that the Sammys had a 4 to 1 return rate over the Sonys for what it's worth.  I must say, that my 55" looks MUCH bigger in my den than it did in the store.  I have a 25'x15' room and I think a 60"+ TV would be overkill for that space.  Hell, a 50" would probably have worked very nicely.

As far as the Onkyo reciever goes, it is very similar to the Pioneer 1015x that is a favorite mid range AV reciever on avsforum.com.  Both have 3 component video inputs and 5 composite inputs (perfect for what I need).  The Onkyo puts out some very clean power and has an auto setup microphone that let's you easily calibrate the system for your specific room.  The Polk speakers, while not having the brute force asskickery of large floor standing speakers, sound clean and forceful enough for my size room.  I'm actually surprised that much sound can come out of satellite sized speakers.

I'm hooking a Dish Network DVR, Progressive Scan DVD player, PS2, and Gamecube to it, all switched by the AV reciever's remote (increased WAF).  Eventually I plan to build a sleek little media PC and slide it into the console.  I'm jonesing to grind foozles in WoW from the comfort of my recliner.

Bottom line:  I'm grinning like a jackass with a mouthful of bumble bees.   :-D :-D :-D

[Sky]

Right on!

[MrHat]

Fucking Fantastic man, congrats!!!!

I bet one big reason that the 4-1 return rate is that it weighs less.

After reading tons of avsforums, I've managed to talk myself out of a samsung and into one of the new sony's coming out this year.

1k more :(  Gotta get me a jobs at bestbuy.

[stray]

I'd figured I'd glance at this thread because my TV just farted out....

*Nevermind*

Holy hell. You guys are absolutely insane.

Either that, or I'm a biggest miser you'll probably ever know.

Anyways, maybe you can still answer my question. Does anyone here have Dish Network or DirectTV? I'll probably be moving up to HD (probably nothing too fancy ), but I'm a little confused on getting a new reciever. I already have a non HD reciever with PVR, and I can get another to view HD programming for $100 (but without recording features). I can still use both, but if I ever want to record, it won't be HD.

It's $500 bucks for an HD+PVR reciever. I don't know about you guys, but that's sounds pretty crazy to me. Should I just wait and deal with the two reciever setup for awhile?

[MrHat]

Crazy, maybe.

But there's almost nothing else entertainment wise that I spend more time with.  It's worth the expense imo.  Especially when I get my DVI-HDMI cable going.

[OcellotJenkins]

Anyways, maybe you can still answer my question. Does anyone here have Dish Network or DirectTV? I'll probably be moving up to HD (probably nothing too fancy ), but I'm a little confused on getting a new reciever. I already have a non HD reciever with PVR, and I can get another to view HD programming for $100 (but without recording features). I can still use both, but if I ever want to record, it won't be HD.

It's $500 bucks for an HD+PVR reciever. I don't know about you guys, but that's sounds pretty crazy to me. Should I just wait and deal with the two reciever setup for awhile?

I went to a local satellite retailer with the intention of getting Dish Network.  After talking with them for about an hour I decided against it and went Digital Cable.  Here's why:

- Dish Network will lease you an HD box OR a PVR box but not an HD PVR combo box.
- To get the combo box, you have to shell out $600 (might be cheaper elsewhere but that's what they quoted me).
- They also do not offer HD versions of my local network channels.
- To get the local HD networks, I would have to buy an Antenna from them for $100 and tune those stations with my TV tuner instead of the satellite reciever.
- They were going to charge me for 3 boxes (one for each tv in my house).

- My cable company (Knology) offers Digital Cable with an HD PVR combo box.
- All local HD channels are included (CBS, NBC, FOX, etc) as well as Discovery HD, ESPN HD, and HBO HD.
- Analog cable, of course, doesn't require a box which is perfect for my other 2 TVs and is free.
- The package was significantly cheaper than the Dish Network package and provided more content.

It's possible that your satellite retailer has a better deal than mine so check it out.  I personally would rather lease the reciever from them than pay for my own.  The benefit of owning one would be that you could hack into it and upgrade the PVR hard drive if you wanted to but still, I'd rather lease and always have the latest box they offer.

Heh, I wound up exchanging that 55" Wega for a 42" EDTV Plasma.  The freaking thing was just too big.  I'm enjoying the better picture quality of plasma and the size fits the room much better.  I came to the realization that 480 crispy clean lines were all I really need on a 42" tv and even thought it's technically not "HD", High Definition content looks amazing on the set.  There isn't $1000 difference in the ED and HD on a set that size in my opinion.  At least my eyes can't see the difference from 10 feet away.

[stray]

I'm not going to get much of a better deal with Dish here either. I haven't checked out the particulars with my cable company (Time Warner), but I'm sure it'll be a hell of a lot better than that. I'm already paying them for broadband anyways...Might as well do the whole thing. I just don't watch enough TV to justify $500 for a reciever. I'm a movie buff for sure, but not much else (Well....I can't resist the urge of watching retards play basketball either :D). If anything, I could use that cash to buy a better sound system.

[EDIT] One good thing is that I can get some nice deals at the BX through my old man. There's 32" JVC HD (AV-32S575) that I can get for $557, but what you said about plasma has me curious now. I forgot the exact model, but there was a 42" that was priced under $1500. I'm going back there later, so I'll write down what it is.

[OcellotJenkins]

[EDIT] One good thing is that I can get some nice deals at the BX through my old man. There's 32" JVC HD (AV-32S575) that I can get for $557, but what you said about plasma has me curious now. I forgot the exact model, but there was a 42" that was priced under $1500. I'm going back there later, so I'll write down what it is.

That Plasma I linked above goes for about $2500 most places but my dad, who is now interested in one as well, said he found the same set at Walfart for $2100.  I'm not sure what kind of service plan they offer but I paid $499 for a 4 year plan at Circuit City.  Good luck with your search.

[Strazos]

Yeah, I'm still running a 32" RCA from the late 80's, and it looks fine to me.

My parents run a high 30's or mid 40's projection screen TV downstairs, with no Digital Cable or HD.

Fuck that noise. 

[AcidCat]

Heh, I wound up exchanging that 55" Wega for a 42" EDTV Plasma. 

I was with you until this happened. What a disappointing ending to a great story.

[OcellotJenkins]

Heh, I wound up exchanging that 55" Wega for a 42" EDTV Plasma. 

I was with you until this happened. What a disappointing ending to a great story.

95% of all the TV I watch is Standard Definition broadcast.  SD looks like utter shit on a 55" screen when you are less than 20 feet away from it.  DVD's were nice on the big one for sure, as well as the few HD channels.  My wife usually doesn't notice compression artifacts and such but even she was disgusted with the quality of SD on that Wega.  For example, the H logo on the history channel has artifacting all around it.  On my plasma i can notice it if I look for it.  On the Wega it was under a magnifying glass and you couldn't miss it regardless of where you were in the room.

Maybe 5 to 10 years down the line when every cable channel is broadcasting in HD I'll regret my purchase.  For now though, I'm loving it.

[Sky]

Holy hell. You guys are absolutely insane.

Maybe. But maybe spending twice what I paid for my tv for a boat I can use 3 months a year vs a tv I watch every day in one capacity or another (hd, dvd, pc) makes crazy sense. Most of my friends think I'm nuts, but have seasonal toys like a boat or snowmobiles. Not to knock those hobbies, but if you break it down by hours/yr it's actually pretty damned cheap. Not to mention the intangibles like not crouching over a computer desk and having a home theater (saving me lots of theater expenses), having my entire cd collection accessible around the house via my home theater system, etc. But yeah, there's an upfront sticker shock, no doubt.

It's $500 bucks for an HD+PVR reciever. I don't know about you guys, but that's sounds pretty crazy to me. Should I just wait and deal with the two reciever setup for awhile?

I don't know much about it, best to ask at the avsforum. Even though it's currently f&*(ing broken, the nice thing about the TW box is that it's only $7/mo, though of course there is a crossover point....but I also get free hardware upgrades and the HD receiver is 'free', same cost as a digital receiver. In fact the guy who I installed a wireless network for last week got an HD receiver even though he doesn't intend on getting an HD set for a year or so.

To add to OCJ's excellent dish vs cable post, my local TW offers the following in HD: HBOHD (Deadwood!!), SHOHD, YesHD (yankee home games), ESPNHD (football!), InHD1 & 2 (great music and educational stuff), HDNet (yay Mark Cuban, more great music, sports and educational), HDNet Movies (lots of classics converted to HD....soylent green is PEOPLE!), DiscoveryHD (my favorite), PBSHD (frontline in hd!), CBS/ABC/NBC in HD (Conan went HD a couple weeks ago, and football is AMAZING). I'd say 95% of my tv viewing is in HD, it's just so much nicer, I only watch the Daily Show and SciFi Friday in SD, and the odd bit of MTV1/2 (when they are playing music, so never really) and Fuse or VH1 classic.

Heh, I wound up exchanging that 55" Wega for a 42" EDTV Plasma.

Meh. You lost me there, too. If I do something, I like to do it right.

That Plasma I linked above goes for about $2500 most places but my dad, who is now interested in one as well, said he found the same set at Walfart for $2100.

My 720p native 61" set goes for about $2500 these days. And you really want to play BF2 on it ;)

SD looks like utter shit on a 55" screen when you are less than 20 feet away from it.

Took me about two or three months to adjust. Most of my friends got tired of me bitching about the mediocre (not utter shit imo) quality of SD on the set. Now I can watch the daily show without noticing. I sit about 10' away, the bare minimum I'd recommend for a 61" set. Actually, just about perfect imo. Great distance for gaming.

On the Wega it was under a magnifying glass and you couldn't miss it regardless of where you were in the room.

That's odd. My set is nowhere near that level of artifacting. I don't really even notice it unless I directly compare a HD vs SD signal, and even then, it's not artifacted to the level you mention. Maybe it's due to the LCD tech? I dunno, just find it odd.

[stray]

Holy hell. You guys are absolutely insane.

Maybe. But maybe spending twice what I paid for my tv for a boat I can use 3 months a year vs a tv I watch every day in one capacity or another (hd, dvd, pc) makes crazy sense. Most of my friends think I'm nuts, but have seasonal toys like a boat or snowmobiles. Not to knock those hobbies, but if you break it down by hours/yr it's actually pretty damned cheap.

By that reasoning, you'd have a Gretsch by now too What are you waiting for?

[Sky]

I'm not sure if I had it to do over again that I'd get a guitar instead of the tv. I really love my tv (if you couldn't tell). It's just that I'm not really doing anything with music buy woodshedding right now, trying to build my knowledge and skills up. If I were gigging or even recording, I'd get a nicer guitar. As it is, every spare cent is going to my house fund. I took a short-term loan for the tv (a year) to build up my credit with the bank, now they'll give me a mortgage without a cosign.

I think I'll be getting a black Strat with maple neck, though. :) Watched the Holmes Brothers (GREAT band) last night opening for the less-than-stellar Bo Diddley, and the guitarist was playing my baby. I can get one cheaper than that nice Gretsch or a Les Paul, anyway. Wait....what thread is this again? ;)

[Yegolev]

It's $500 bucks for an HD+PVR reciever. I don't know about you guys, but that's sounds pretty crazy to me. Should I just wait and deal with the two reciever setup for awhile?

I don't know that I have any solutions for you, but I have an alternate anecdote from Ocellot's.  I already had DirecTV and I got my HD DVR from them.  It was ~$680.  Works OK but doesn't have all the b+w that other TiVo boxes have, I think, particularly a network connection.  Not that I have looked back there to see if it had a ethernet port.  Does what I want it to.  It has a built-in "off-air" antenna hole so if I were so inclined I could get a HD antenna/box and plug it into the DirecTV box.  I am not inclined, since DirecTV gives me local channels in HD.  I also get NYC and LA versions, just in case I can't get enough local news from Fox 5.  The receiver also has two satellite inputs so I could watch one channel while recording another, except I'm not wired up for that.

I have not done a lot of research but seems like if you want to get a HD DVR you are going to have to drop your pants.

[OcellotJenkins]

Concerning SD picture quality, I highly recommend asking the people at the store to let you see what a regular analog channel looks like on the various sets.  Most of the time they are running a high definition promo channel to those TVs so they all look pretty good.  My bad experience with SD could have been because the TV was LCD...perhaps DLP doesn't have the problem, but mine was terrible.

As far as ED goes, it's all about the size of the set.  The general consensus at avsforum was that for a 42" plasma, the difference is hardly noticable between the ED and HD versions (in the Panasonic particularly).  You'd be a fool to get a large screen (50"+) ED though.

[Sky]

When viewing content in the store, you also have to sit the proper distance from the set to replicate normal viewing. If you get too close to a lot of sets, it looks bad because they aren't designed to be viewed up close. My set has a slight 'screen door', the barely visible demarcation between pixels. But step a few feet back (even closer then comfortable veiwing distance) and it's gone. So many subjective things involved, and a lot of imperfections, as well (I have the older color wheel, frinstance). But I still love the damn thing and wouldn't change my mind about buying it, even armed with my year and a half experience as an owner. Really, the worst part of the whole experience has been time fucking warner.

But hey, decent programming and an initially cheap DVR. It's all about the tradeoffs, I guess.

I think for my next theater piece, I'll be going projector. I won't bite until they have an affordable 1080p widescreen projector, though. This XGA crap is nonsense ;)

[MrHat]

Doesn't Comcast give you an HD-DVR box for like $10/month? Isn't that cheaper than tivo?

Oh, and Sky, IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

Don't read avsforums, you'll end up upselling yourself.

Goodbye 2500, hello 4500.

Now, to find some cash so I can buy that fucker.

[Sky]

Nah, I upsell myself. I could have afforded the 56" set several months earlier, but I knew if I didn't get the big kahuna, I'd be thinking "my set is sooo nice...but if only I'd gotten the 61"....". I was a bit worried because of the amount of negative posts about my set, but as has been mentioned, those tend to crop up the most, same as bitching about mmogs dominates boards over positive posts. The real sell was the simple pc connectivity via DVI, it's a great pc monitor. I don't think I could game on a traditional rig any more :) Feet on the coffee table > hunched over desk!

Doesn't Comcast give you an HD-DVR box for like $10/month? Isn't that cheaper than tivo?

As I mentioned, my Time-Warner box, which was nice when IT FUCKING WORKED (Raph tried to warn me, heh, he went through something like 4 boxes due to the same problem), runs me $7/mo.

Just don't let it fill up. I had the entire last season of Deadwood in HD, which ate up about 60% of the disk, plus the entire last seasons of SG-1, Atlantis, and BSG (maybe 20% for all three, due to being SD), plus a bunch of shows to watch with my girl: frontline, bullshit!, independent lens, etc.

[MrHat]

Well, the computer is the problem.

1080p DLP Samsung set runs 1k more than the 720p.  The HDMI input (DVI) won't accept 1080p, but the analog VGA plug will.

The problem is, that I've been reading about this new TV Sony is putting out, and it has like 90% fill on it's LCD pixels, which is incredible and takes away about the only thing I don't like about LCD TV's.  Plus, it's HDMI takes 1080p which might come in handy someday.

Oh, and I think I might be getting my HD-DVR set asap.  Anyone know if Comcast will charge me for HD channels as well as the box rental?

[Yegolev]

Doesn't Comcast give you an HD-DVR box for like $10/month? Isn't that cheaper than tivo?

You have to account for the intangible cost of dealing with Comcast.  I will never, ever go back to cable.  Those fuckers burned their bridges really well.

[stray]

How does upconversion work on HDTV's? What does a normal (NTSC?) signal look like?

[EDIT] I'm so confused.

[EDIT] Here's Toshiba's CrystalScan, for instance:

CrystalScan HDSC upconverts all video signals (including 480i/p) to either 1080i HD on CRT based models or 720p on fixed pixel sets, resulting in a significant reduction in jagged line artifacts. Selectable 540p, for users who want to display a progressive scan image from a progressive scan source, is vailable via the on-screen menu. Benefit: CrystalScan HDSC uses the full high definition display capability of the television to create the sharpest, most realistic picture possible from every source.

Do all brands have something similar to this?

[MrHat]

I think the TV tries to recreate the input into it's native resolution.

[Viin]

Yah all TVs will take whatever signal you send them and put it in their native resolution. So if you have a 720p TV and send it a 1080i signal it downgrades it to 720p. If you send it a 720i signal it'll upscale it to 720p.

Note on the 1080p thing - as far as I know there isn't anything right now that can send a picture in 1080p, so even if the TV supports it it will only accept 1080i and upscale it to 1080p. Hopefully this will change soon, but I donno when that'll happen.

[MrHat]

Correct, I believe the first device short of a computer signal to output 1080p will be the PS3.  Most 1080p tv's that are coming out actually do not and will not accept a true 1080p signal.  They will take it, downscale it to 1080i, then flip it back to 1080p.

[stray]

OK, here's another question: What does regular Dish or Digital Cable broadcast in? 480p? Or plain old 525i?

I'm just wondering how well "non-HDTV" broadcasts look on your TV's.

[MrHat]

OK, here's another question: What does regular Dish or Digital Cable broadcast in? 480p? Or plain old 525i?

I'm just wondering how well "non-HDTV" broadcasts look on your TV's.

480p over Dish network I think.  Digital cable is shit.

[OcellotJenkins]

OK, here's another question: What does regular Dish or Digital Cable broadcast in? 480p? Or plain old 525i?

I'm just wondering how well "non-HDTV" broadcasts look on your TV's.

480p over Dish network I think.  Digital cable is shit.

From what I can tell, the difference in picture quality between satellite and digital cable is negligible.  The limiting factor here is the quality of the network programming.  For example, History Channel and TBS both look crappier (and sound crappier for that matter) than say ESPN or HGTV.  This is noticable on Comcast and Knology digital cable as well as dish network (in TN at least).  Regardless of how clean the signal is that the provider pipes into your home, if the network programmer provides a lower quality feed, that is what you are going to see.  As I mentioned earlier, this is magnified on a larger, higher quality screen (to varying degrees depending on your eyesight and the tv).

One important issue to consider if you've never owned a wide screen tv before is the 4:3 picture shape that regular non-HD channels have.  You'll be seeing black bars on the sides of the screen unless you distort the picture by stretching it.  There are several ways to deal with this depending on your reciever and tv.  Since I have a plasma, I'm a bit more concerned about screen burn in than if I owned a rear projection tv so I usually try to fill the whole screen when possible.  My digital cable box has three picture size settings; stretch, zoom, and normal.  Stretch simply elongates the picture which results in fat heads...not ideal really but your eyes get used to it eventually.  Zoom looks better but chops off some of the top and bottom, again not ideal. 

In addition to my digital cable box having aspect adjustment, my tv also does.  The tv has the two mentioned above along with Justify.  This mode is better because it uses an algorithm to stretch more on the sides of the picture and less in the middle which reduces the fat head problem.  The problem is, most tv's with aspect adjustment can only do it on non-HD signals.  This means it works on s-video and composite inputs but not component (HD) inputs.  I'm considering running both an S-Video and a component cable out of my cable box into my tv so I can have the best of both worlds.  I then could watch SD content using the Justify aspect and HD content in it's native wide screen format.  I've heard that regular SD signals can sometimes look better via s-video than component because that type of signal was not meant to be split that way (see link below for better explaination).

Another annoying issue is the fact that even on High Definition channels, much of the content is not actually in wide screen format.  Most of the network HD channels are this way.  Most of the time I just stretch em and live with the distortion.  Kinda sucks but thats the trade off for being a semi early adopter.  Here is a link that explains this stuff better than I can (it's written with plasma in mind but it applies to any widescreen pretty much): 

Polishing Turd

I'll say one more thing about upconversion.  My PS2 looks absolutely stunning when connected with regular composite video cables to my tv.  I use Justify mode to fill the screen and I'm very pleasantly surprised at how well it looks.  I heard somewhere that you can get a component video kit for the PS2 that apparently allows you to get an even better signal out of the thing but I don't think it's worth it in my case. 

[MrHat]

It's worth it.  10 bucks and looks gorgeous.

I'm not going to worry about burn in (going for a DLP).  Thanks for the clarification though.

[stray]

Is this a good deal?

Samsung SP-P4231

42" Plasma EDTV

The regular price I can get it for is $1757, but there's a returned model available that was only used for 6 hours (regular non-BX price tags range from $1900 to $2400). The price on that is about $1300 (25 % off, and I still get the same warranty etc.).

Remember now, I could care less for HDTV at this point. There isn't jack shit for channels (at least not worth a $500 box), and I watch mainly DVD's anyways.

[Viin]

Plasma sucks. That said, if you have the money you might as well at least try it. The worst that could happen is that you take it back and get something else, right?

[OcellotJenkins]

Plasma sucks. That said, if you have the money you might as well at least try it. The worst that could happen is that you take it back and get something else, right?

Humor me.  Why does plasma suck?

[CmdrSlack]

Plasma sucks. That said, if you have the money you might as well at least try it. The worst that could happen is that you take it back and get something else, right?

Humor me.  Why does plasma suck?

Seconded.  I know people say that the non-plasma flat screens are better, and I'm in the market for a flat-panel monitor...so why is plasma so bad?

[Furiously]

Go to your local airport that has a plasma screen that has been running for more then 6 months.

Plasma is great when it is new - it just suffers from burn-in. Look into life expectancy. And make sure your warranty covers burn-in.

[Viin]

Yah, I've just not been real impressed by plasma. For the price, I can certainly find a better TV that's a projection model.

Furiously also has a very good point, the plasma TV's I've seen hanging around in public places certainly look worse for wear. (But then, I don't know how many LCD/DLP projection TV's are out in the public like that - so might not be a good comparison).

Still, for the money, I think you get more bang for your buck with a non-plasma TV. Plasma is still newish and is expensive technology, you can get s good picture with a quality LCD TV for less money.  I can get a huge DLP TV for the price of a small to medium sized plasma.