Could it be? DAOC listened to the players?

[Special J]

Ok I get it now.

Plane of Time!

[Der Helm]

I hate you guys so much.

Now I am even more tempted to try it out again. If my usual guild starts playing on that server, I think I might be buying that fucking box.

Did I mention that I hate you ? Yes ? Good.

[Johny Cee]

Just a few observations from a long-time DAoC player:

1. XP Grind -- The grind is a small shadow of what it was in the game's first year or so of existence.  Free levels are on a timer between 2 and 7 days,  camp bonuses (a bonus amount of xp for how long since the last time a mob was killed/camped, essentially) worth as much as 50% of the regular xp from the mob, outpost/keep xp bonuses,  Catacombs quests and instances.

With a reasonable soloer,  non-botted or twinked, you can hit 40ish in a couple of days played counting lots of battlegrounds time.  (Sorceror, enchanter, catacombs classes, bolter/spec nuker, etc)

The only place the grind really kicks in is the mid to high 40s.  You can no longer solo your way to a new level in an hour or two,  you've probably completed most available quests, etc.

2. Noob economy -- There have been quite a few pretty big changes since year 1.  Darkness Falls,  and the new aurulite giving instances and dungeons in catacombs, provide you with pretty good level equivalent gear.

The gold reward for pvp in the battlegrounds is actually VERY good. (1-4 gold a kill, even in thidranki, the lowest level bg)  No, you won't get rich from it,  but you won't be a pauper scrimping money to buy non-green con armor.

Cash from instances is pretty reasonable.  My vamp on a regular server is 48.  Managed to save a few plat in the 3ish days played so far between instances, battlegrounds, etc,  and usuing aurulite dungeons to get armor/weaps/items.

3.  Balance -- Hmmm.  I'm not sure how this will go.  Obviously,  some abilities and classes will come back with the elimination of MLs (aoe disease classes, for instance).  Stealthers look like they'll be tower/wall humping all the time.  Hybrids and self-buffing classes are substantially boosted.  (Friar, champion, thane [sic], hunter, ranger, vamp, heretic)  Look out for the /afed DI bot....

I'd look for Mythic to treat these servers like the full PvP servers.....  No real special rules changes or exceptions made.


 

[eldaec]

Sadly the ideal thing for this game would be for all the players to forget how to rvr and how to level quickly. Because the most fun thing ever in DAoC was when nobody really knew what the hell they were doing and level 20 was high enough for RvR.

That, combined with no ToA (or fixed toa, toa wouldn't be that hard to fix, just correct the damn drop, arti-xp,  and quest-mob-spawn rates) and no Buffbots would be perfect.

However, that can't be done, so props to Mythic for fixing the game to the greatest degree possible.

Ultimately I doubt it will bring me back because....

1) The dumbasses at the EU DAoC setup probably won't set up an equivalent server.
2) 1-50 doesn't appeal even with catacombs.
3) Even at 50 and in RvR I rather feel I've done everything in DAoC. An improvement to RvR by removing buffbots  doesn't justify the resub alone.

But if I were still in game it would definitely have extended my stay.

[Mesozoic]

Well at first, DAoC was considered "EQ done right" not necessarily "That RvR game."  Over time the people looking for a more rounded RPG experience left; the only ones that stuck around were the "level up quickly and kill people" variety.

[schild]

If the server was No ToA + free blowjobs daily from hot femme korean chick/18/irl, I still wouldn't play.

That grind makes the Star Wars combat upgrade look like one of the best ideas ever.

I'd rather play the EQII newbie isle over and over again.

[eldaec]

Well at first, DAoC was considered "EQ done right" not necessarily "That RvR game."  Over time the people looking for a more rounded RPG experience left; the only ones that stuck around were the "level up quickly and kill people" variety.

DAoC still is EQ done better. It's just that we now have EQ done even better. So RvR is kind of important as the only positive distinguishing feature.

[Velorath]

If the server was No ToA + free blowjobs daily from hot femme korean chick/18/irl, I still wouldn't play.

That grind makes the Star Wars combat upgrade look like one of the best ideas ever.

I'd rather play the EQII newbie isle over and over again.

Sounds like with Catacombs the grind isn't that bad, and I wouldn't be surprised to see /level go in after the server has been up a while.  I don't know, if enough people here are willing to give it a shot I might join in.  I don't know, it kind of feels like trying to decide whether or not to get back together with an ex-girlfriend.  Sure, maybe she's changed a bit since the last time I saw her, but all those bad memories are still there...

[Merusk]

I don't know, it kind of feels like trying to decide whether or not to get back together with an ex-girlfriend.  Sure, maybe she's changed a bit since the last time I saw her, but all those bad memories are still there...

From experience:

She hasn't changed and you're still her #1 sucker for thinking she has.  She'll still lie, mess around behind your back,l be as whiny and high-maintence as before, and you'll still wind-up hating  her after a few months.  The only thing you have to look forward to is once again cursing bitterly and looking like an even bigger idiot for thinking things would be different the second time around.

[Soln]

If the server was No ToA + free blowjobs daily from hot femme korean chick/18/irl, I still wouldn't play.

That grind makes the Star Wars combat upgrade look like one of the best ideas ever.

I'd rather play the EQII newbie isle over and over again.

DAoC was the first MMO I played seriously.  I still have warm feelings towards Mythic for being small and providing good mechanics like RvR stats online, but I quit after SI.  The grind was too fun-prohibitive.  And sadly, while there may be easier ways to level now, I think the main showstopper is that there's just not enough people playing to make it worthwhile.  Even when I was playing I guess at the height of popularity it was thin (hated those fucking horse rides from Cammie to Cornwall only to find nobody at the goblin trees to group with.  And that was nearly the whole zone+).

[AlteredOne]

And sadly, while there may be easier ways to level now, I think the main showstopper is that there's just not enough people playing to make it worthwhile. 

I am reactivating, and I will let you know how those issues play out.  Anecdotally from my old DAOC guild, there is a lot of interest in giving this a shot.  If the two new servers really do draw back a lot of cancelled subscribers, they should be easily the most populated of the bunch.  And if they don't win players back, they will just cannibalize the existing servers, piss off the hardcore ToA catassers, and really nail that MMO coffin shut.

Personally I'm betting they will win a fair number of players back, and DAOC will have a long career as the premier boutique RvR MMO.

[schild]

There are other RvR games?

[Johny Cee]

And sadly, while there may be easier ways to level now, I think the main showstopper is that there's just not enough people playing to make it worthwhile. 

I am reactivating, and I will let you know how those issues play out.  Anecdotally from my old DAOC guild, there is a lot of interest in giving this a shot.  If the two new servers really do draw back a lot of cancelled subscribers, they should be easily the most populated of the bunch.  And if they don't win players back, they will just cannibalize the existing servers, piss off the hardcore ToA catassers, and really nail that MMO coffin shut.

Personally I'm betting they will win a fair number of players back, and DAOC will have a long career as the premier boutique RvR MMO.

The new servers will be crammed for a while,  but the people who've been playing all along will largely go back to regular servers I think.  Mostly,  why start over with a clean slate if you've played all along and have done most of the ToA/rvr/etc etc junk already?

This is what we saw when Mythic instituted /level 30 for the extremely underpopulated servers.  It just filled up the lvl 30-35 (Caledonia at the time) with visitors who wanted to insta level and hit the bgs.  Almost no one stuck around for the higher levels.

For my part....  I've played for about 3 years now.  I had 1 lvl 50 up until the big xp changes last summer, that made leveling a breeze.  ToA isn't too big an issue for me at this point,  and I'd be throwing away an almost RR 6 champ,  some good bg toons,  some fun 50 classes,  and a bunch of people I know.

I think this is perfect for people that want to come back and play around with the game again, though.  I'd love to see Mythic either institute occasional server wipes on a few servers like this,  or set a timetable where they launched a "fresh start" server every now and then.

[Johny Cee]

There are other RvR games?

Ziggy is snarky tonight.....

[HRose]

Personally I'm betting they will win a fair number of players back, and DAOC will have a long career as the premier boutique RvR MMO.

My bet is that they will be totally swamped. But really beyond what you can portray.

After some time the situation will ease up but I believe that the two servers will have a steady and large population when compared to the others.

Which is bad either way since this will kill even more the population on the other servers.

[Mesozoic]

So it turns out that to install Catacombs, you have to have already purchased and installed ToA.  That seems particularly galling for people who are being drawn back only because there will be a server that strips out most of ToA.

Given a choice between "grind it out old-style" or "buy two more expansions, one of which gives you only races," I will choose "City of Heroes."

[Lum]

So it turns out that to install Catacombs, you have to have already purchased and installed ToA.  That seems particularly galling for people who are being drawn back only because there will be a server that strips out most of ToA.

<shill>

The free trial, which doesn't require a game purchase to continue play, includes the original game, Shrouded Isles, New Frontiers, and the Catacombs game engine (basically, every feature of the expansion save the new zones and dungeons.)

Admittedly, you'll probably want the new zones since that's currently the quickest place for casual players to level up. There's a combo box coming soon which includes everything, including TOA and Catacombs. At the moment, yes, you would have to buy Catacombs and DAOC Platinum (the only other version on the market, which includes everything except Catacombs) if you wanted all zones in the game.

</shill>

[Mesozoic]

Yeah, its not the Catacombs engine that I would want Catacombs for.  I would pay $30.00 or so for that if it came with a free month and was available as the new servers launched.  Considering how well-versed players are in leveling up, if it comes out even a month or so after the servers go up, the newbie zones could be deserted again.

[HaemishM]

There are other RvR games?

You might have heard of the other one.

[schild]

Two sides does not an RvR make.

[HaemishM]

Two realms versus each other. How much more RVR can you be?

Oh right, three realms in a free-for-all slapfight for the Holy Tater Tot.

[schild]

Yup.

Two sides versus eachother is just.....ya know....a war. Not even an interesting war. But rather good vs good since neither will admit to being evil.

It's all about the tatertots. Yea. It's all about the tatertots. Yea.

[Paelos]

Yup.

Two sides versus eachother is just.....ya know....a war. Not even an interesting war. But rather good vs good since neither will admit to being evil.

It's all about the tatertots. Yea. It's all about the tatertots. Yea.

You've lost it. Of course its RvR. Hell, DAOC is RvRvR. And Puzzle Pirates is ARRRRR!

[Mesozoic]

Two sides does not an RvR make.

Well that explains why it didn't expand the MMORPG playerbase.

[schild]

So, SW:G is RvR also?

The only game I'd really grant RvR to would be Matrix.

[WayAbvPar]

Two sides does not an RvR make.

Well that explains why it didn't expand the MMORPG playerbase.

Heh.

[Lounge]

Just about everything i read on this site in reference to DAOC is about the grind or the boring pve gameplay.  What kills me is people who jock wow in the same thread considering that 90% of the quests are the exact same quest and that the grind is damn near as long.  Wack 20 foozles and get me 20 whatsits and i'll give you the super dagger of foozle killing.  Not saying daoc is great pve gameplay but its not that different from wow...

[schild]

None of them are that different, no one ever claimed otherwise. But the visceral feedback and the virtual speed of WoW (how it feels, not how it is behind the character on the spreadsheet) makes it MUCH MUCH MUCH more bearable. It's just like CoH, those early levels, before you get used to all the skills seem fast because OMFG SHINEY. Then it....slows..........to............a.................halt.

[Murgos]

I think it comes down to bubble progress.  If you make the bubble increments small so that you are constantly filling them then its a fun game.  If takes you days and days to fill a bubble then its a boring game.

It's that simple.  Now make me some bubblequest, damnnit!

[HaemishM]

Just about everything i read on this site in reference to DAOC is about the grind or the boring pve gameplay.  What kills me is people who jock wow in the same thread considering that 90% of the quests are the exact same quest and that the grind is damn near as long.  Wack 20 foozles and get me 20 whatsits and i'll give you the super dagger of foozle killing.  Not saying daoc is great pve gameplay but its not that different from wow...

As has been said before, the PROCESS of DAoC's PVE treadmill is what makes it so grindy. It's just not any fun unless you are with a fun group of people, and even then, it's too much of the same thing (pull, mez, kill, med, rinse, repeat) over and over again to be fun. WoW or CoH, while still somewhat grindy, is a much more fun process. It also takes less time, though CoH being a shorter curve is debatable.

[HRose]

As has been said before, the PROCESS of DAoC's PVE treadmill is what makes it so grindy.

That's the point in fact. As I define it: a problem of quality and not of quantity.

DAoC's treadmill isn't longer compared to other games, but it is awful for the most part (especially now with a weak community).

In this thread someone brought the example of task dungeons as a relevent improvement to the treadmill. My point is that they are exactly the opposite. They BREAK the game. They are essentially corridors with a row of immoble mobs in the middle. You whack your way through them, one by one, with about a two minutes downtime between each kill till the end where sits the exact same mob you whacked till that point, just named. You kill the named and you get rewarded with money and experience.

Now the reward is good, this is true, and it makes the treadmill shorter since you can efficently level up in solo. But this is, in fact, the "quantity" aspect of the problem. The truth is that you are really playing an unashamed version of Progressquests that puts you in a corridor with a row of mobs you need to grind to increase the size of your e-peen. There is really NOTHING ELSE. Just repeat your easy kill 20x for each mob, complete the task, get another and repeat.

This CANNOT be tolerated. It cannot be tolerated for weeks or months as it cannot be tolerated for ten minutes. It's one of those things that give you epiphanies: what the fuck am I doing? The game cannot be THAT dumb.

And you really cannot believe that the devs could be so unashamed to add something like that to the game.

[Lounge]

I just dont see it i guess... 

Why is it more fun to do a quest where you kill 50 foozles to collect 10 widgets then go back to Angry Dwarf 12 for Hammer of bashing 3?  Also what are the /played of the people hitting 60 in wow?  I question how much shorter the cap really is... I know i hit 35ish in 7 or 8 days played whereas my first daoc char capped out 50 in 20 with later char's hitting in 5 or less...

(note: this is less in defence of daoc than a wtf is so great about wow)

[Nebu]

Having played this game off and on since beta, I was very excited about the new server concept initially.  Then I began to consider how ranged buffs and the lack of ToA would effect RvR gameplay.  Sadly, it seems that the release of NF and catacombs both relied heavily on balance currently in place with ToA.   As a result, I think that these two servers will be heavily populated initially, but the problems inherent in the system will cause some huge balance issues unless Mythic is willing to address the special needs of such a server.  I personally don't see Mythic willing to redesign the game for 2 servers, so the problems with balance will simply become a game artifact that the players there will work with.  The people unwilling to live with the imbalance will leave after a month or so.

If you do roll a toon there, expect to see a) mostly hibs: with many of them playing vamps and rangers b) a lower midgard population that you even see now, and c) a large number of sorcerers running around with a DI bot strapped to their ass... ok, you already see that now.

I'm happy to entertain a discussion on the finer points of all this.  I just didn't want to go into all that detail on a forum where most people could care less about this game.

[HaemishM]

Quests provide context. Context provides some modicum of story. I preferred questing in DAoC, but you couldn't level exclusively with questing, and after 20 or so, there were no quests to speak of.

[Paelos]

They took away kill tasks at 20, which i thought was dumb. I can't remember if they added them back.