Does anyone play EQ2?

[Mesozoic]

Shit, we can't even stay on the topic of EQ2 in a thread about why no one wants to play EQ2.  We answered the thread question by derailing it.

[schild]

Shit, we can't even stay on the topic of EQ2 in a thread about why no one wants to play EQ2.  We answered the thread question by derailing it.

I really just want an index in the guides I purchase.

[jpark]

The consensus really seems to be that subs are not doing well.

1.  Is the EQ2 player base smaller than EQ?
2.  Continue to bail water, introduce a new MMORPG or resurrect EQ?  What would you do?

[AOFanboi]

2.  Continue to bail water, introduce a new MMORPG or resurrect EQ?  What would you do?

Admit WoW has won and dump EQ2, keep EQ1 as a cash cow while trying to fix SW:G. Maybe pay Microsoft for a commercial license to their open-source-sort-of Allegiance game and develop something interesting with that?

[AlteredOne]

The consensus really seems to be that subs are not doing well.

1.  Is the EQ2 player base smaller than EQ?
2.  Continue to bail water, introduce a new MMORPG or resurrect EQ?  What would you do?

Actually Sony has made several statements indicating that EQ2 has 200k+ subscribers.  Those are not WoW numbers, but they are not trifling. 

I think all we've proved is that the MMO intellectual crowd does not like EQ2, but then most of us have not liked EQ for a long time yet it still has plenty of subscribers.

Perhaps the truth is that EQ and EQ2 both appeal to the types of players who become so "immersed" that they stop bothering to post on message boards anywhere other than maybe the SoE official forums.

[jpark]

Actually Sony has made several statements indicating that EQ2 has 200k+ subscribers.  Those are not WoW numbers, but they are not trifling. 

My friend has an EQ2 "sub".  It's his all station pass.  He plays his EQ warlock once in awhile.  Show me where SOE has actually released actual EQ2 numbers not obscured by all station pass.

"Perhaps the truth is that EQ and EQ2 both appeal to the types of players who become so "immersed" that they stop bothering to post on message boards anywhere other than maybe the SoE official forums."  Plausible.  Until I visited my old EQ warrior site Steel warrior.  EQ forums and WoW forums are alive.  EQ2? No.

[kaid]

I would guess most are like me where the anti eq2 rabidness is silly enough we generally don't bother posting. All I can say is for my little family guild of 30 odd folks all those except 2 that played WoW in exclusion to eq2 have since left WoW to come back to eq2. There are some like me who have accounts on both but most stopped playing WoW. Heheh I have seen some pretty funny rants full of teh hate for WoW's patching system.

I myself think they are both good games but the total ass sucking stupidity of WoW's patching method boggles my mind every time I have to patch it. Thankfully they patch VERY slowly so it does not get to many chances to offend me.

Kaid

[Mesozoic]

Perhaps the truth is that EQ and EQ2 both appeal to the types of players who become so "immersed" that they stop bothering to post on message boards anywhere other than maybe the SoE official forums.

I've never found this argument convincing, nor have I seen a good example of a game with a large following of players who happened to be board-mutes.  Fans of online games post on online forums.  Somehow I doubt that EQ2 is such an immersive catass game that the catasses can't bring themselves to post on catass forums.

[shiznitz]

I have to admit that I never stumble on any EQ2 specific messageboards with any significant activity. This has to mean something.  It is hard to find more than two actively updated fansites.  That said, the official EQ2 forums are actually readable.

[HaemishM]

Granted, we are certainly an insulated lot on these boards, but I really think that the lack of any significant discussion anywhere on the Net over EQ2 cannot be counted on to be just "most people don't post on message boards." I mean there is NO talk about it anywhere. And as Jpark said, there have been NO definitive numbers about EQ2 subscriptions. None of what they've released can be construed to definitively say how many of those subscriptions are EQ2-only subscriptions, and how many are All-Access subscriptions. For all we know, they could count someone who has an active All-Access sub as an EQ2 sub if they bought the box and played 20 minutes.

[AlteredOne]

Granted, we are certainly an insulated lot on these boards, but I really think that the lack of any significant discussion anywhere on the Net over EQ2 cannot be counted on to be just "most people don't post on message boards." I mean there is NO talk about it anywhere.

I do see your point, but I'm thinking of the IGN Vault especially...  For years, the EQ discussion there has been minimal, yet EQ chugs on.  And when I asked why there was no EQ discussion there, people responded that the SoE boards got the lion's share.  Compare that with DAOC for example, where Mythic never provided an official discussion forum, and indeed encouraged their players to use the Vault.

But I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done a scientific survey of all the internet sites, searching for EQ2 activity.  I can only anecdotally report that my "family" guild has seen a resurgence of EQ2 interest, after a bunch of people got bored with WoW.  No clue how long that interest will last.

[HaemishM]

Ummm, the Vault got a shitton of EQ1 posts back in the day, especially on the server specific boards.

[AlteredOne]

Ummm, the Vault got a shitton of EQ1 posts back in the day, especially on the server specific boards.

Yeah I do remember those days, when my Povar boards were full of wonderful posts like "Jes is a whore, her guild ganked our plane raid," or "Who's the best <classX> on Povar?"  Oh, the drama.  Thing is, I recall that those server boards died down long before EQ really went south, maybe around 2002.  Having quit the game at that point, I'm not really sure why the Vault stopped being the place to go, because obviously there were still a buttload of EQ players.  I think EQ's numbers only took a big hit in the last couple of years.

[Merusk]

EQ2's official forums are the FIRST company-run MMO forums I've ever seen where you can find threads on the first page that the latest post was not from the previous day, but from two days prior.   The most active board with over 10k posts I found was the 'quests' board where I had to go 3 pages back to find posts from the 7th.

If you don't think that says, "huh, they're in trouble," then nothing will convince you.

[Murgos]

Having quit the game at that point, I'm not really sure why the Vault stopped being the place to go, because obviously there were still a buttload of EQ players.

Moderation the likes of which only newly promoted ultra-prolific zealot vault posters are capable of.

[El Gallo]

Well, I buy at least some of the message board bias argument.  EQ1 had huge amounts of traffic on unofficial sites because they closed down whineplay.  That really spurred a population explosion in other communities: in particular, the EQ class boards (eqdiva, shaman's crucible, ranger's glade, etc).  EQ2's official forums are not super shitty, therefore most of the EQ2 posters stay there. 

WoW's official forums are an unreadable shitstain, which drives some posters off the site.  But there still isn't the unofficial "class board" phenomenon we saw in EQ.  The EQ1 class boards see low WoW activity--not no activity at all like they see with EQ2, but very low.  The most active one I can think of is Graffe's, which is now more of a general WoW-fanboi board for the "If Blizzard raped my mom I'd assume the whore was asking for it" extremists to hang out than a mage board.  Even there, the activity level is much lower than it was during EQ1's heyday.

Of course, the main reason is that WoW is an enormous, uber-successful behemoth (500k concurrent users in its China beta alone, wtfpwn) and EQ2 is begging for table scraps.

[Jayce]

I'd welcome a good, low signal-to-noise, third-party set of class boards for WoW.

However, I would guess that the lack of them is due to the fact that in EQ, you sort of had to make your class your second job, and play limited alts, where there's a lot more hopping around in WoW because it's so easy for the (even semi-) catass to level to 60 in a reasonable time.

[jpark]

I visited quite a large computer retail/electronics store today.

They "carry" EQ2, but do not have any in stock.  They have not sold any EQ2 boxes since March, so no longer carry it on their shelves.

To drive this point home:  they were well stocked with EQ and WoW boxes.  Clearly, they have the clientele for this genre.  I think this brings back the point that from a product development point of view SOE's time would be better spent advancing EQ than trying fix EQ2.

[schild]

Their time would be better spent not competing with WoW, Guild Wars, and the NCSoft stuff. You see, one day EQ was king of the hill. But that's because everything else was utter shit. Now?

I'd rather play Eve than EQ.

It's time for them to move on.

[jpark]

Their time would be better spent not competing with WoW, Guild Wars, and the NCSoft stuff. You see, one day EQ was king of the hill. But that's because everything else was utter shit. Now?

I'd rather play Eve than EQ.

It's time for them to move on.

This is just not realistic.  The singular most important thing that WoW has shown is that this market, when many thought it was saturated, has expanded enormously and looks poised to continue that trend in the near future.  If you're part of a market, and suddenly it expands past on all previous estimates of its size, you can't walk away from that.

Your point would be a solid one Schild if the market was in stasis or contraction with declining margins.  The MMORPG market growth from WoW demands more competitors - not exits.

Buying a competitor though - that might be worth a look.

[schild]

Ok, look. Blizzard has millions of fans. Fans who will buy a Blizzard MMORPG because it's a Blizzard Game. Not because it's an MMORPG.

It has nothing to do with the online gaming market. They weren't playing EQ before. They were playing Starcraft for the last 8 years.

My argument would be bad if WoW had nothing to do with a Blizzard License and was made by someone else.

[jpark]

Ok, look. Blizzard has millions of fans. Fans who will buy a Blizzard MMORPG because it's a Blizzard Game. Not because it's an MMORPG.

It has nothing to do with the online gaming market. They weren't playing EQ before. They were playing Starcraft for the last 8 years.

My argument would be bad if WoW had nothing to do with a Blizzard License and was made by someone else.

Let me know if I have paraphrased this correctly:  Blizzard's current subscription numbers, at 1.5 million, is not evidence that the MMORPG market has grown. 

Your qualification would be:  If the MMORPG market has grown, it is only Blizzard consumers, who will play WoW but no other MMORPG.  So technically, the market has not grown.

This strikes you as reasonable? (genuine question)

You have a eclectic mind Schild and since business is pretty simple even the in worst of cases let me throw an esoteric reference your way:  look up "preadaptation" in evolutionary biology.

[schild]

I don't think the market has grown that much. Blizzard has millions and millions of fans. At only 1.5 million people playing WoW worldwide (or box numbers or whatever that number is - even Wish had a couple hundred k beta testers, right?) they've got maybe 5% of their worldwide market. That's:

A. Shitty Turnover.
B. A lot of turnover from other MMOGs.
and
C. Not much growth in the market.

I wouldn't be surprised if every single other MMOG tallied they're losses and came up to a good chunk of WoW's numbers. That said, Haem and others have said it before but it bears repeating.

We need a good console MMORPG to see growth. I wouldn't be surprised if EVERY PC Gamer in America/Worldwide (not counting people who play Poker and Pogo and other browser based shit) have played a blizzard game.

1.5 Million people is not the worldwide population of PC Gamers. Let alone 1/50th of Blizzard fans.

[Margalis]

This is just not realistic.  The singular most important thing that WoW has shown is that this market, when many thought it was saturated, has expanded enormously and looks poised to continue that trend in the near future. 

How does it look poised to continue? I can't think of a single game coming out in the next 1-2 years that will make 1/10th the impact that WoW made.

[WindupAtheist]

So WoW bringing in a bunch of people new to the genre doesn't count as expanding the market, because...

It has nothing to do with the online gaming market. They weren't playing EQ before. They were playing Starcraft for the last 8 years.

So apparently "expanding the market" means stealing people from EQ and friends.

I wouldn't be surprised if every single other MMOG tallied they're losses and came up to a good chunk of WoW's numbers.

Way to go, Schild.  I keep worrying that one day the evils of "logic" or even "consistency" will stop you in your noble quest to piss and moan endlessly about the things you hate, but you always pull through.

[schild]

Wow. Way to miss the point. That's quite impressive. Blizzard players are Blizzard players. They play games because they are Blizzard games. Expanding the Online market would mean they break out of that brand. Which isn't likely to happen.

What did I say I hated? What are you even trying to quote there? All I was saying was Blizzard stole players from other MMOGs. Is that too complicated? Do I need to dumb it down?

Don't take your fat jedi kid agression out on me. Particularly when you make no sense.

[Margalis]

The player base has expanded but the MARKET probably has not expanded. The market is pretty much the same as it ever was, unless a bunch of people from WoW stay with MMORPGs once WoW has run it's course for them. If you are creating a MMORPG today, your customer prospects probably aren't a lot better today than they were a couple years ago. The number of people you can potentially sell to remains the same. That is Schild's point.

The market has only truly expanded if other MMORPGs can expect to pull higher numbers as a result of WoW success.

[Abel]

Blizzard players are Blizzard players. They play games because they are Blizzard games.

Tip: actually PLAY the game and learn what it's playerbase is or at the least observe it's playerbase.

I know anecdotical information doesn't amount to much, but as far as my experience counts WoW's is playerbase is not quite exactly "Blizzard fanbois who have been playing Starcraft for the past 8 years". You have some of them and of course being fanboys they're a vocal minority, but I think you and others are seriously overestimating their number.

WoW drew also biiiiiiiiig numbers of players from the online FPS scene, which partly explains the popularity of the PvP servers (FPS players have no interest for "dull" PvE). Also many players have come from other MMO's. Some players even haven't been much into gaming before at all.
For huge numbers this is their first MMO and many are loving it. Even on other MMO forums I saw WoW players pop up looking into other MMO's. Market expansion at work.

[Mesozoic]

Wow. Way to miss the point. That's quite impressive. Blizzard players are Blizzard players. They play games because they are Blizzard games. Expanding the Online market would mean they break out of that brand. Which isn't likely to happen.

Wow, stupid.  1.5 million subscribers represents nothing at all to the genre?  ALL of those players will jump ship for Starcraft 2 / Diablo 3 / etc.?  At the very least, they took some Blizzard players and taught them that its OK to pay a monthly fee.  That alone is a huge deal.   But realistically, you can't get 1.5 million subs without taking a whole slew of players and giving them their first experience in MMORPGs - and once those people hit 60, some will start grazing on other offerings.

 

[jpark]

The market has only truly expanded if other MMORPGs can expect to pull higher numbers as a result of WoW success.

Exactly.

If we all agree it is likely there are people playing WoW new to the MMORPG genre - whether they be former FPS or starcraft acolytes - that by definition is expansion of the market.  Schild's argument that these are merely blizzard fans playing Blizzard products - is something we can only test / see over time.

But for any business, the fact remains the market has expanded through non-MMORPG players enlisting under WoW, and that opportunity has to be exploited.  Let's keep in mind the obvious point, one former starcraft player who now plays WoW is not a one for one swap, given the annuity MMORPG business models over one-off product sales of games like Starcraft.  This is a critical point:

At the very least, they took some Blizzard players and taught them that its OK to pay a monthly fee.  That alone is a huge deal.   

When I was a kid in high school the only leisure reading I ever engaged in were comic books.  Then graphic novels came out.  Suddenly, the idea of reading a novel seemed more appealing to me after spending so much time with graphic novels.  The simplicity of WoW, combined with its short character maxxing time, makes it the perfect launching pad to introduce new players to this genre and WoW's competitors (EQ2, EQ, CoH etc.).  I would not be suprised in the least if 1 year from now WoW lost some players to more demanding MMORPGs like EQ2 after their WoW training wheels were no longer needed.

This market is in a growth phase that demands new competitors and products.

[schild]

Ok, I'll give in, maybe Blizzard "expanded" the market. MAYBE. But it's still  not likely that it was an amount that means jackshit. Those players won't play Vanguard. They won't play Everquest 2. They won't play Auto Assault. They MIGHT play Tabula Rasa, if they can pronounce the name.

You see, they didn't join the MMORPG genre. They, once again, went to play because it's a Blizzard game (or at least, that's what I hear from non-internet dwellers). Maybe I'm just not getting through to you all how important it is that the word Blizzard is attached to the game. Even on the shittiest of games, the word Blizzard (and Warcraft in this case) has more of an effect than anything in the game. Period. Just like Star Wars Galaxies drew big numbers the first few weeks (until people discovered the game was total shit). Though, the Blizzard name has never done well on consoles.

Yes, Jpark, the market is in a growth phase, and always will be. When the market stagnates is when we're in real trouble. Though I'm still on the fence about whether Blizzard has set us back 5 years or not and if it's made to look like a Starcraft MMOG.

I would also bet that City of Heroes drew more people into the MMORPG market than WoW did. But I'd also guess that SW:G pushed a large number of people out of the MMORPG market destroying any chance for those players to enjoy an online game again. Because, really, they all have their fair share of problems, whether they're pronounced or not. It's all up to the future live team.

But seriously, thinking that Blizzard expanded the whole market is silly. Their name did more for them than it did for the market. When another PC-Based American-made MMORPG hits that many people (though the asian numbers are and always will be SUSPECT), I'll buy into Blizzard expanding the marketplace. Of course, if that happened, Blizzard would have to lose a noticeable percentage of players. Now, that's a bet I won't take. There's simply nothing coming out in the future that isn't UberNiche.

[HaemishM]

Let's look at it this way. Does ANYONE think that ANY non-WoW MMOG that has released in the last year would have pulled in anywhere close to WoW numbers? Do you think EQ2 would have in the abscence of WoW? Do any of you think that any of the MMOG's to be released in the next year will pull in anywhere close to WoW numbers? Or would have had WoW not been released? Does anyone think that the presence of WoW in the market place will HINDER the numbers of new MMOG's?

[shiznitz]

What are the lessons from WoW gameplay that new MMOGs will chase?

1) Quests fucking galore
2) Large amounts of solo content
3) Fast levelling

Can a non-Blizzard game get away with WoW sub-par graphics and low character customization? I doubt it.

As far as WoW expanding the market, it is a business fact IF the total players of MMOGs post-WoW > ante-WoW. What people are debating here is if this growth is permanent or purely a result of the product. Think Pokemon. The card market exploded with Pokemon, but shrunk again when Pokemon faded away.

[jpark]

Schild that's not really conceding anything in this discussion.  That's fine - but let's be honest about it for what it is.

Let me try a different angle:  Prior to the release of Coh/WoW/EQ2, was it not the prevailing view that this market was saturated, no longer growing, and had more products coming than the market could bear?

Post WoW/Coh, has the market outlook for MMORPGs not changed completely?

I am not familiar with this:

Think Pokemon. The card market exploded with Pokemon, but shrunk again when Pokemon faded away.

Interesting.  I was a die hard Apple user.  I owned nothing but Macs.  < insert long story here > Today I use PCs.

It really isn't rocket science to suggest that a SIMPLE product entering a market, that attracts new users, equips and prepares those users as adopters for other products that may not be as userfriendly.  It not just ease of play, the sub par polygon count of WoW graphics (combined with real artistic style) has allowed users with sub par systems to get a taste of this genre.  Is it a stretch to say a significant number of these players might upgrade their systems for demanding graphical products?

Ease of play and low system requirements - you could not ask for a better product than WoW to initiate those new to this genre.

[jpark]

I don't think the market has grown that much. Blizzard has millions and millions of fans. At only 1.5 million people playing WoW worldwide (or box numbers or whatever that number is - even Wish had a couple hundred k beta testers, right?) they've got maybe 5% of their worldwide market. That's:

A. Shitty Turnover.
B. A lot of turnover from other MMOGs.
and
C. Not much growth in the market.

I wouldn't be surprised if every single other MMOG tallied they're losses and came up to a good chunk of WoW's numbers...

1.5 Million people is not the worldwide population of PC Gamers. Let alone 1/50th of Blizzard fans.

Maybe you could walk through some numbers here.  At its peak EQ had 400k subs?  Where are the other 1.1 million subs coming from exactly?

It now sounds like your saying that even for Blizzard, WoW is a drop in the hat, since it has "millions and millions of users" referring to their other products.

You can't compare WoW sub vs. a purchaser of Starcraft etc. ("millions and millions of fans").  You know that any MMORPG account is an annuity, not a one-off purchase.  If you want to compare 1.5 million users of WoW vs. Blizzard's customer base, we need to do it on revenue, not head counts.  How many copies of Diablo do you buy on a regular basis?

I am finding it difficult to follow the reasoning here.