Episode 3

[Paelos]

He picked El Mariachi above Apocalypse Now?  So, like the whole hunt into the darkness of the soul thing just kind of passed you by in favor Antonio Banderas in tight pants?  The journey through the looking glass that is the trip up the river didn't impress you as much as a guitar case that fires rockets?

You sir, are on crack.

I believe El Mariachi was at least original. Apocalypse Now is just an interesting twist on an old novel.

[stray]

He picked El Mariachi above Apocalypse Now?  So, like the whole hunt into the darkness of the soul thing just kind of passed you by in favor Antonio Banderas in tight pants?  The journey through the looking glass that is the trip up the river didn't impress you as much as a guitar case that fires rockets?

You sir, are on crack.

Well, to be fair, Antonio wasn't in El Mariachi. But the point pretty much stands. Haemish is on crack.

Apocalypse Now is just an interesting twist on an old novel.

Umm..Like most films? Taxi Driver is pretty much a modern version of Notes from the Underground. Doesn't make a difference.

[Llava]

I wanna play a Gangs of New York MMORPG.

[HaemishM]

It's not that Apocalypse Now as a twist on an old novel. Shit, most stories are just variations on 3 major themes anyway. I felt that Apocalypse Now had some good moments in it, but was overall left with the impression that it wasn't a great movie. 3 Stars out of 5. Whereas El Mariachi was filmed on no fucking money, by a guy who sold himself for medical experiments to make the money to shoot it, with not even z-list actors in a third world country. And what he produced was simply amazing. The shot with the Mariachi and the bus was just magic. It was a one-take fucking miracle.

I fail to see anything in Coppola's filmography that equals the artistry of that one shot. And I thought Desperado improved on it only by budget. Sure, there were cheesy moments. Fuck, most of Hopper's lines in Apocalyspe are utter cheese. And Godfather is even more /meh-inducing. I've just never seen what the hoopla is about. Empire Strikes Back was a better directed movie. I'm not telling you these movies suck; I'm just telling you that I believe them to be overrated. Collateral was better than say Godfather. Heat was better than Casino.

[stray]

Collateral was better than say Godfather.

[WayAbvPar]

I am with you on AN (I have only seen it once, and I was running a temp of about 102 and vomiting every 30 minutes, so my health may have affected my judgment), but I gotta stand up for the Godfather. I have read the book, and the movies were MUCH better.

I am also with you on Heat v Casino- I liked Casino (other than the stomach-turning vice and baseball bat murders), but Heat was amazing. One of my favs. DeNiro and Pacino were great, and the cinematography in the bank robbery scene is AWESOME.

[schild]

Really though, much as I love some of Scorcese's shit. He sucks, bad. And I'd never noticed before.

Bullshit.  Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, King of Comedy, Goodfellas.  All classic, fabulous movies.

Shit, even his "cash-in" movies aren't at all bad; Casino and Cape Fear were both good movies.  His latest "epic" movies like Gangs of New York and The Aviator, while not up to his earlier stuff, aren't bad either while still having their flaws.  Fuck, I even like Sense and Sensibility if you took it for what it is; a gilded age costume drama.

What he said. Don't even go there schild. <snip>

Paelos said it, Scorcese has been saved by great actors numerous times. He can get a good performance out of people. But let's put this simply: His movies aren't spectacular LOOKING or filmed in any Spectacular way. Scorcese sucks, there I said it again. His actors are awesome, his casting directors are awesome, his acting coaches are awesome but his Director of Photography often "sucksmynuts." Maybe if Tak Fujimoto or someone who KNOWS what they're doing told him what to do, his movies would end up looking prettier than Ridley Scott's or James Cameron's. Until then, Scorcese is nothing but a man with incredible luck and a guy who has bought one of the finest casting directors on the planet. Truly, some of you people still believe in the auteur. Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

[Furiously]

Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

Ouch - Now that's just plain mean.

[schild]

Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

Ouch - Now that's just plain mean.

I like your new avatar. Meow.

[Big Gulp]

Truly, some of you people still believe in the auteur.

For someone with the supposed encylopedic film knowledge you claim to possess omitting Thelma Schoomaker as Scorsese's right hand (wo)man is pretty telling.  But then, I'm arguing with a tasteless poseur who thinks goth=deep, so perhaps I should question why I'm wasting the bandwidth.

Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

If I were, he'd already have his statue.

[stray]

Paelos said it, Scorcese has been saved by great actors numerous times. He can get a good performance out of people. But let's put this simply: His movies aren't spectacular LOOKING or filmed in any Spectacular way. Scorcese sucks, there I said it again. His actors are awesome, his casting directors are awesome, his acting coaches are awesome but his Director of Photography often "sucksmynuts."

He isn't much a photographer, I'll grant you that. But his job is to offer up a perspective, not a photograph, and in that, I think he's a genius. Just watch the commentary on the first Mary Magadelene scene in Last Temptation (the one where she's "servicing customers"), and you'll see how intricate the guy can be with seemingly "plain" scenes.

Anyways, even if he didn't have that, the fact that he can get good performances out of actors is more than enough.

Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

If I was, he wouldn't have been screwed so many times.

[schild]

I love Last Temptation of Christ and a handful of his other movies. There's no doubt that the guy has the chops.

Unfortunately he only chooses to use them when HE'S feeling like an artist. Therefore, he still sucks.

I'm accrediting the acting to the actors themselves and the casting director. Scorcese has a lot of great properties. I know a number of actors who would die to be in a number of movies and would give a good performance even if the film was directed by Lucas.

[stray]

I know a number of actors who would die to be in a number of movies and would give a good performance even if the film was directed by Lucas.

That's true, but when it gets down to it, the slightest things a director could say or do will destroy what determination one might have. Directors like Scorsese (and dare I say it, Tarantino!) are very rare. They can even make bad actors unleash whatever good talents they may have.

[schild]

I know a number of actors who would die to be in a number of movies and would give a good performance even if the film was directed by Lucas.

(and dare I say it, Tarantino!)

You said it, and your opinion of directors just flew out the window with it.

[Paelos]

Yes the Tarantino hate thread was miles long and paved with various disembodied limbs.

[stray]

I know a number of actors who would die to be in a number of movies and would give a good performance even if the film was directed by Lucas.

(and dare I say it, Tarantino!)

You said it, and your opinion of directors just flew out the window with it.

Hey now, we're just talking about a director's ability to work with actors atm.   Let's not get into the other stuff (some I will agree with you on, but that, out of all things, is the one ability where he is capable of getting good results).

[schild]

I'm sorry, but after seeing Kill Bill, I highly disagree. Michael Madsen is only good when he's sadistic. Tim Roth is never bad. Quintin Tarantino simply writes roles that the actors and the actresses don't have to try to deliver. When he can't, the shit performance of Uma Thurman really shines through like in KB Vol 1&2.

He's a terrible man pissing on the history of cinema.

[stray]

Well, whatever...I don't want to get into Tarantino anyways. I used him as an example for humorous reasons, as an extreme, and because he's much maligned around here -- just to see if people could still see that talent despite his other flaws. I probably shouldn't have gone there.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that directing actors is a real skill. Hiring good talent isn't the only thing. It's especially more important these days because almost all actors have training in some kind of Stanislavsky derivative. Years ago, a director like Hitchcock could get away with his philosophy, because most actors would go along with it. And a guy with the skills of a Kazan wasn't all that relevant.

Nowadays, every actor deals with motivation, and the "why?" of a scene -- Having a guy like Lucas who resorts to generic, meaningless terms like "Be 'Angry' ", "Be 'Calm'", "Umm...you two, sit over there..and umm..Act like your 'In Love'" is a dreadful experience. The better directors speak a different language, an actor's language. They almost always have some training themselves (or are actors themselves), or come from a stage directing experience. They understand that it's a process, either approached from the bottom up or top down. Not some silly off/on thing.

[WayAbvPar]

Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

Ouch - Now that's just plain mean.

I like your new avatar. Meow.

Fur, is that Schmoo?

[WindupAtheist]

Leia knew her mother. (See RotJ, ewok village speech to Luke about the beautiful sad mother)

When Luke asked her about her mother, Leia still had no idea of her true parentage.  It's quite likely she was speaking of her adoptive mother.  At least, it's more likely than Padme coming to live with her daughter's adoptive father for a couple years, while her son is raised by dirt-farmers.  And then getting run over by a bus or something between parts 3 and 4.

[HaemishM]

If I remember the speech right, Leia was either talking about her adoptive mother, or she was talking about a very early memory of childhood. I think Amidala is definitely supposed to die.

[eldaec]

If I remember the speech right, Leia was either talking about her adoptive mother, or she was talking about a very early memory of childhood. I think Amidala is definitely supposed to die.

It's the very early memory thing, the speech refers to her mother 'dying when I was very young', and compares this experience with Luke never having known his mother. It wouldn't make much sense for the conversation to be about adoptive mothers, since Luke did know his adoptive mother.

Ep 3 has to explain the separation of the twins anyhow, so placing Leia with Padme under the care of the Organa family, and having Obi-wan carry Luke off elsewhere would seem likely. How placing one twin in the family of a high profile politician and the other with Darth Vader's step-brother is supposed to hide them from the emperor is a whole other question of course.

That said, Lucas certainly isn't above just playing merry hell with the continuity and doing whatever he damn well likes. But I expect Anakin's rage will come more from his inability to prevent his estrangement from Padme (probably related to some political nonsense created by Palpatine) combined with frustration at the Jedi.

Anakin killing Padme is too strong for any film with Jar Jar Binks in it.

When Luke asked her about her mother, Leia still had no idea of her true parentage. 

In the sense of knowing that her mother was Queen/Senator Amidala and her father was the Dark Lord of the Sith, this is true. But given the 'my mother died when I was very young' angle, I don't consider it unreasonable that Padme wouldn't have told Leia the whole story.


EDIT:

Got home and stuck the DVD in to check I wasn't going mad...

Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother, your real mother?

Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

Luke: What do you remember?

Leia: Just images, really. Feelings.

Luke: Tell me.

Leia: She was very beautiful, kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?

Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

So Padme can't die unless the timeframe of episode 3 runs until Luke and Leia are toddlers, and have been separated. Or unless Lucas just rereleases episode 6 with 'improvements'. I accept that both are entirely possible.

[Ralphie]

since Luke did know his adoptive mother.

Luke didn't have an adoptive mother. He had an Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen.

How placing one twin in the family of a high profile politician and the other with Darth Vader's step-brother is supposed to hide them from the emperor is a whole other question of course.

Vader didn't know whether the children survived or not He didn't know that there were twins. He didn't know that there was a boy and a girl. It's feasible. You're talking about 2 children in the span of a GALAXY. One with a member of the Senate...which has thousands of delegates. The other with his half-brother that he met once, who has a small moisture farm on a desert planet on the outermost rim of the galaxy. Remember that they didn't even accept Republic credits there in TPM, and the Stormtroopers were only sent there in ANH because Leia was instructed to get the stolen plans to Obi-Wan. Owen and Beru being whacked, and even the Stormtroopers being on Tatooine had nothing to do with Luke's heritage, it was strictly about the droids. But just for the sake of discussion, remember that Obi-Wan uses the Mind Trick to stop the Stormtroopers from getting Luke's identification at Mos Eisley. The Empire has no clue who Luke is until he destroys the Death Star.

--Ralphie

[Furiously]

Tell me the truth, some of you are in the Academy, aren't you?

Ouch - Now that's just plain mean.

I like your new avatar. Meow.

Fur, is that Schmoo?

Indeed - it is my cat Schmoo. Who is completely different from the Schmoo who posts here.

[Sobelius]

So when Vader and company are near Tattooine in "Ep4", why doesn't Vader have a total emotional meltdown? "Argh! This is the planet where I was a slave as a small child and I slew all the Sand People that captured my mother! Waaaaaaaaa! Grand Moff Tarkin, can we PLEASE use the Death Star on Tattooine. Please? Pretty please? It would help me remove any traces of my former innocence."

[Llava]

I'm thinking emotions weren't very high up on his "Things That I Have" list by then.

[Mortriden]

I always assumed it was just a matter of the Death Star not being right there when Vader was.  Maybe if Luke hadn't blown the sucker up so soon Vader would have got around to it.  /shrug

[Murgos]

I don't think Vader knew he had children.  I onlyt think he figured it out later when he found out there was a Luke Skywalker from Tatooine who lived with his mothers second family.  Remember Skywalker was his name not Owen and Berus.

He certainly didn't know about Leia until he picked it out of Lukes brain in EP VI.

[murdoc]

Lucas officially lost me as a "fanboi" when Anakin was conceived from immaculate conception.

[HaemishM]

Lucas officially lost me as a "fanboi" when Anakin was conceived from immaculate conception.

The Force was strong within her. 

[MaceVanHoffen]

Lucas officially lost me as a "fanboi" when Anakin was conceived from immaculate conception.

The immaculate conception didn't bother me all that much.  I could've dealt with it had Anakin not been a kid that stars in a toy-commercial pod race for way too much of the movie and flies a starfighter to save the day, all while spouting typically childish drivel.  The rubberband of my willingness to suspend disbelief stretched too far and snapped.

[Furiously]

Lucas officially lost me as a "fanboi" when Anakin was conceived from immaculate conception.

The Force was strong within her. 

I just imagined he was Mace Windoo's love child and they were both keeping quiet about it.

[WindupAtheist]

Anakin killing Padme is too strong for any film with Jar Jar Binks in it.

Spoiler, but read it anyway.  You know you want to:  Wrong.  Anakin Skywalker murders his pregnant wife.  With a force choke.  I told you this was going to make Empire look cheery by comparison.  (Although I will point out that he doesn't intend to kill her outright, he simply doesn't know his own strength.)

So Padme can't die unless the timeframe of episode 3 runs until Luke and Leia are toddlers, and have been separated. Or unless Lucas just rereleases episode 6 with 'improvements'. I accept that both are entirely possible.

Yes, Lucas was thinking about Mama Skywalker when he wrote this.  But it's vague enough to gel with almost anything, depending on how you take it.

[Mortriden]

This thread just keeps bringing me out of my corner...

Fuck Lucas and his fucking "Anakin is Jesus" shit.  That was fucking asstastic.  When that part came up half the fucking theater said "WTF?" and the other half called for a bible.  What a bunch of horseshit.  Crippled Christ on a Crutch (sorry for the random blasphemies, but that whole concept makes me angry enough to skull fuck one of my co-workers right here in the plant).

Why couldn't he just said she didn't know who the father was and left it at that?  Yeah, the fucking mitochondria thingies knocked her up... wow, that's like fucking amazing George; put that in your movie.

[Riggswolfe]

Well...the virgin birth was a little heavy handed I'll give you that...