Out of combat skill system delayed again

[eldaec]

Why aren't Skills in I5?

First system wasn't that fun. It was only in the design stages and I couldn't see how we could get it in and add enjoyment to the game.

Second system was a lot easier to create the basics, but there was a huge amount of implementation behind it. In essence, it was like we were recreating the combat system and all the villains in the first release.

We could have rushed like mad to get that in - but we would not have had time to give it polish. Even worse, we'd only have the bare minimum of what the system was meant to be. Given that reality, we decided internally not to release it with I5.

When will it be released? Hmmm. That's a good question. There's lots of pressing feature requests from the boards (character x-fer, new archetypes, etc.) that are important. We'll continue to look for ways of getting the SSOCS into City of Heroes.

My take on this is that ever since the arenas were clearly set to be in I4, most other development seems to have stopped dead. (You'll also have noticed that the orginally promised zone, villian groups, and orgin specific story arcs didn't make i4)

And the effects still seem to be rolling on as powers get rebalanced for pvp.

Personally, I'm starting to think that pvp, while a fun diversion, wasn't worth the fuss in the context of CoH.

[MaceVanHoffen]

Personally, I'm starting to think that pvp, while a fun diversion, wasn't worth the fuss in the context of CoH.

Just starting, eh?  Ever since PvP was announced, I knew it was going to be a nightmarish chaotic mess.  It always is.  Every single game like this that starts off PvE only and adds PvP in later goes through the same hell.  You have to love the propensity of humans to staunchly refuse to learn from history.  There's always some reason that they figure that whatever it is will work this time, that all those other times were somehow different.

Cryptic is a good bunch of devs, better than any I've been a customer of, but they will never get PvP under control.  I define control as not significantly impacting PvE with each issue.

[tazelbain]

Well, they have to do it sometime with CoV on its way.  So they get a jump on it with I4.

[CmdrSlack]

Well, given the other stuff in I5, I'm happy to wait for out of combat skills.

Heck, the archery powers alone will be cool, assuming they make it in.  I've also seen rumors of a scrapper pistol primary.  Not necessarily for I5, but somewhere in the land of development.

Server transfer would also be good but I'm wondering why they wouldn't do a merge, save the most likely horrid problem of identical names.

However, I'm willing to bet that some of the bigger ticket items won't go in until CoV launches....so they can test them in the CoV beta.

[MaceVanHoffen]

Heck, the archery powers alone will be cool, assuming they make it in.  I've also seen rumors of a scrapper pistol primary.  Not necessarily for I5, but somewhere in the land of development.

Oh hell yes!  I'm making an archery-based hero as soon as it becomes available.  I have to agree, I'm willing to wait for that.  Plenty of good game around to play until then.



Think unsexy thoughts, think unsexy thoughts, think unsexy thoughts, think unsexy thoughts ...

[Llava]

Mark my words-  single target disorient, smashing damage attack.

[ClydeJr]

I've also seen rumors of a scrapper pistol primary.

"The gun katas. Through analysis of thousands of recorded gunfights, the Cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically predictable element. The gun kata treats the gun as a total weapon, each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone, inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire. By the rote mastery of this art, your firing efficiency will rise by no less than 120%. The difference of a 63% increase to lethal proficiency makes the master of the gun katas an adversary not to be taken lightly." - DuPont

[Llava]

It's weird how something like that can be so stupid yet so cool at the same time.

[AOFanboi]

Maybe the out-of-combat skill system will be to CoH what the CU was for SW:G? "Sorry, we can't do that yet, we have an expansion or five to work on. But we will drop it in without warning later on."

[Strazos]

Equilibirum Reference.

Cockdiesel movie.

How perfectly was Bale cast in his role?

Also, the director's commentary was interesting; one of the only movies I bothered to use the feature for.

ON TOPIC: Duh? The only game where PvP hasn't been fubar'ed has been Guild Wars, and they deisgned the game from the ground up with PvP in mind. Coincidence?

[AOFanboi]

ON TOPIC: Duh? The only game where PvP hasn't been fubar'ed has been Guild Wars, and they deisgned the game from the ground up with PvP in mind. Coincidence?

I'd add Matrix Online as well, but just because mobs = "AI run players"; Mobs have same skill sets, and generally have the same "professions" as players. So you don't have such a strong separation between mobs and players that you have in other games.

However, apart from duels (think WoW), PvP is rare because red-names are people who have gone "overt" to a faction (Zion, Machines or Merovingian), around level 20+ (I think). Red-names can be attacked by non-overts as well, though. Since my highest currently is level 10 (ah the joys of Super Jump), I haven't tried it myself, only seen all the dueling going on at the most popular hardline in Mara Central.

[stray]

ON TOPIC: Duh? The only game where PvP hasn't been fubar'ed has been Guild Wars

You're kidding, right?

[Strazos]

ON TOPIC: Duh? The only game where PvP hasn't been fubar'ed has been Guild Wars

You're kidding, right?

Shush.

Until you witness the greatness that is High End Organized PvP, and stop complaining about the B- low-end PvE game, you're not allowed to have an opinion.

[jpark]

Why aren't Skills in I5?

First system wasn't that fun.

Second system was a lot easier to create the basics, but there was a huge amount of implementation behind it. In essence, it was like we were recreating the combat system and all the villains in the first release.

We could have rushed like mad to get that in - but we would not have had time to give it polish.

Just another reason why I respect Cryptic:  candid concern for their product.

In MMORPGs, it's better to wait for polish than embrace calamity.

[dEOS]

Coh PvP has clearly failed to be fun enough to attract players. I believe that it's only due to the fact that PvP in CoH is limited to arenas and is only fun in large scale battles (1v1 being too predictable) but who's going to spend time awaiting for people to get into the arena to have a large scale battle when all the PvE content is there to be enjoyed without having to wait.

Before honor points in WoW, PvP was fun because you enjoyed PvE and then suddenly you were confronted with PvP encounters.

d

[tazelbain]

Coh PvP has clearly failed to be fun enough to attract players. I believe that it's only due to the fact that PvP in CoH is limited to arenas and is only fun in large scale battles (1v1 being too predictable) but who's going to spend time awaiting for people to get into the arena to have a large scale battle when all the PvE content is there to be enjoyed without having to wait.

Before honor points in WoW, PvP was fun because you enjoyed PvE and then suddenly you were confronted with PvP encounters.

d

Which one reason GW system works so well, you can find opponents across the whole game.  Right now you could have 5 teams wanting to PvP and be unable to because all the teams are on different servers.

I think cross server PvP is the future of RvR and arena. Is there really any reason you need to fight the villains or duel the heroes just from your own server?

[Llava]

I am really surprised at the lack of response the arenas have received.  But it's definitely ruined the fun.  Standing around for 20 minutes trying to build a decent fight, having people leave again and again, it's just as irritating as trying to form a decent group for RvR in DAoC.  Moreso, because it's just for the span of one fight, and you have to form your opponents' team too.

[eldaec]

The reason it failed to attract players is that it has no impact on character development, and you don't win baubles, or even badges, for pvp stuff.

People would rather level.

This is EQ Arenas all over again.

Also, the players who wanted to pvp left a while back.

Features you launch with define your community, your community defines the features you can successfully add. It'll be interesting to see if CoV really does manage sell itself as a new product, because that's the only way I see them adding enough players who actually want to pvp to make Villians vs Heroes work.

[Hoax]

CoH has a grind and till now had 0 pvp.  So for the most part your playerbase are PvE achiever types, no shit nobody cares about an instanced pvp for the sake of competition no rewards setup.

The real question is, will there be an influx of new/pvp players sub'ing for CoV?  I doubt it, because the pvp doesn't sound that much more compelling then WoW's and the grind is worse.

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
I would anticipate you will see allot more pvp participation once there are shiney's to be obtained, but I dont actually know what the community in CoH does or what exactly the end game is as nobody seems to reach it before they bog down creating alt after alt so why dont you tell me?

[Llava]

So by that reasoning, once the tournaments are active and the PvP badges become available, things will pick up because the achiever types will just have to have those badges.

[MaceVanHoffen]

I am really surprised at the lack of response the arenas have received.

The PvP just isn't fun.  It never is (for me) in these kind of games.  Nothing beats something like UT2k4 for unbridled PvP goodness.  There's just something about a persistent, skill-driven RPG that doesn't lend itself to PvP.  And yet, we still have game devs that insist on putting this in their games, as if to simply tick off a checkbox on a feature list.

Besides, PvP wasn't a feature at launch.  The customer base bought the game without PvP, ergo that wasn't a selling point.  You can turn that inside out:  customers had the choice of buying a PvP game, and instead bought CoH, thus your customer base is largely self-selecting for PvE.  It's like selling a really well-engineered igloo to an Eskimo, then trying to interest him in an air conditioner expansion.

[eldaec]

So by that reasoning, once the tournaments are active and the PvP badges become available, things will pick up because the achiever types will just have to have those badges.

Make the badges accolades, and then maybe.

Though bitching about pvp-only accolades would be significant.

[Llava]

I am really surprised at the lack of response the arenas have received.

The PvP just isn't fun.  It never is (for me) in these kind of games.  Nothing beats something like UT2k4 for unbridled PvP goodness.  There's just something about a persistent, skill-driven RPG that doesn't lend itself to PvP.  And yet, we still have game devs that insist on putting this in their games, as if to simply tick off a checkbox on a feature list.

Besides, PvP wasn't a feature at launch.  The customer base bought the game without PvP, ergo that wasn't a selling point.  You can turn that inside out:  customers had the choice of buying a PvP game, and instead bought CoH, thus your customer base is largely self-selecting for PvE.  It's like selling a really well-engineered igloo to an Eskimo, then trying to interest him in an air conditioner expansion.

Well, for me, I only have fun with PvP in games like this.  Halo 2, for example, bores the crap out of me.  I've got nothing invested in the character.  There's nothing personal or unique about it.  That's important to me- to have my own style in a fight.

And maybe I'm the only person in the world who did this, but I bought the game at release specifically knowing and anticipating that PvP would be added in the future.

[tazelbain]

I think eldaec has a good point about launch features defining the playerbase, and the playerbase defining new features. Trying to add more playertypes to your playerbase in mid-stream must be extremely difficult.  Plus, it bad timing with WoW and GW stealing the PvP thunder.  If it had launched with CoV from the start, the market would look significantly different.  Timing is everything.

[Llava]

True, true.  Marketing for CoV has to do a damn good job making sure the MMOG community knows that it's a stand-alone product and not an expansion, so people don't pass it over thinking it's too late for them to catch up to the curve.

[Mesozoic]

Anytime you have a pure PvE scenario, people can't help imagining how cool it would be to pvp.  It happened in DAoC when they added dueling.  People who had been playing for a while just had this itch to scratch - can my Hero take that Enchanter? - and what not.  Same here:  I bet my scrapper could wipe that controller out...

So they beg for arena pvp.  Then they get it.  Then they go back to what they came for, the PvE.  (or RvR for DAoC).